Why Ryze is Both Underpowered and Broken, and How it Can be fixed.

MealReadytoEat··39 votes·15,772 views

(This post is now also maintained on Reddit, here! I'll try my best to keep up with the responses on either site.)

Ryze, as of patch 5.14, is the worst champion at winning games. Yet he is still regarded as broken. Overall balance of a champion is only loosely related to the health of their kit. Balance revolves around a champion's strengths minus their weakness on par with the rest of the champion pool. A champion that has few weakness needs to have few strengths (better nerf Irelia, ‘nough said). On the other unhealthy end, a champion with debilitating weakness needs strengths that are correspondingly extreme. This is Ryze, and until his weakness change, he needs strengths in his kit far more overloaded than his targeted q ever was in order to be balanced. Let me explain.

Ryze’s strength is extremely obvious: while his passive is up he spams his rotation, w-q-e-q, every 2 seconds minus CDR. This does tons of damage(™), allows him to chain snares, and during his ult it does even more AoE damage and quite a bit of vamp. His damage and durability scales with mana, but it’s pretty minimal compared to the ap and defensive stats his items gives. Its enough to make RoA and Seraphs core items, but nothing more than that.

Some of Ryze’s weakness are obvious, other less so. On the obvious side, his mana costs are high relative to his damage, he is extremely dependant on his passive to be effective, and of course he has all the issues the come from being a short range squishy, since he no longer does good damage while building like a tank. All of these can be healthy elements of his kit. The mana costs dampen Ryze’s early game, and add a good amount of play and counterplay on how the player utilizes that mana. The passive adds windows of opportunity to play around him, both in lane and in teamfights. Ryze needs to think carefully about his stacks, as they determine when he can engage, and when he can be engage. The timer adds a sense of desperation while playing him, as you need to capitalize on them or lose them, setting yourself to be engaged on in turn. As far as being a short range mage, Ryze couldn't be anything else.

Ryze’s greatest weakness, and one that few people seem to realize, is that Ryze effectively snares himself with cast times for 1 second on every spell rotation he does. Auto attacks can always be canceled to dodge incoming skills, Ryze’s spells can not. Spamming his spells locks him down, and this is only balanced by the fact that if he capitalizes on his passive right he can snare a tenacity free enemy even longer in a 1 v 1, out DPS most champions that have long enough range to keep attacking him while snared, and do enough AoE burst in a teamfight that his team still wins it after he gets inevitabley cc’d from the skill he can’t dodge and obliterated.

Ryze is billed as a late game hypercarry, but this simply isn't true. All hypercarries have some way of mitigating focus, either through extreme range like Kog’Maw, Tristana, and Jinx, or through extreme mobility such as Vayne and Master Yi. Ryze has no such luxury, and as such he falls off once the game begins to revolve around teamfights. This is especially true since they lowered the damage of his most damaging spell in teamfights, his e, by ⅓ in both base and scalings,. In the average game and comp, Ryze hits peak power relative to his opponents once he has finished his RoA and Seraphs.

If he was able to move during some of his spells, similar to syndra, he could have much of his excessive power elsewhere trimmed down. Most importantly, giving him a half second or so of movement per w-q-e-q rotation would allow a similar amount to be trimmed of his snare without affecting his ability to chase or kite. Its infuriating to be unable to move while playing against Ryze, but it's just as infuriating to be unable to move to dodge that Blitz hook or Cassiopeia ult while playing him, and requires an unhealthy amount of compensation elsewhere.

Ryze also only has one combo: w-q-e-q. You can lead with it wherever you like on that chain, such as q-e-q-w-q-e-q, but once you cast his w, you need to cast q-e-q to reduce the W cd to 2 seconds overall, minus cdr, then repeat w-q-e-q. If you mess it up, such as casting w-e-q all three spells will be on cd, and you will waste 3 seconds (minus cdr) of your valuable passive for his e to be back off cd. This usually gets you killed and/or lets a kill get away. This doesn't even add counterplay, as there is no indication Ryze suddenly lost his ability to spam. After 300 games I still sometimes mess this up, as do the pros, all while a scripter could write a code to execute it flawlessly every time in a few minutes. This mechanic simply lowers the skill floor for Ryze without adding anything to his play, as there is no context where a different order is useful. When his passive is popped, proper play is identical to having a single button that casts w-q-e-q as they come up, and scripters are beginning to heavily abuse this. Combo’s can be part of a healthy kit, but when there is only one proper option for all circumstance, it simply encourages scripting without adding anything of value. The speed and repetitive nature of his combo, along with the punishment for executing it improperly, is probably the strongest inducement to scripting of any champion in the game right now.

Until Ryze can cast some of his spells while moving, he will be worthless or unhealthy, and most likely both. Letting him move while casting his q and e make him feel like the spellslinger depicted in Riot’s videos, not a 550 range pre-rework Xerath on urf. It would make the MS on his ult feel meaningful for more than getting in range, and it would let his snare be toned down without gutting him. I do feel like keeping the casting time on Rune Prison, perhaps even increasing it to .35-.4 seconds, would be both thematically and tactically appropriate. This add a lot of play and counterplay around Rune Prison, as it would signal to the enemy team when Ryze couldn't dodge skill shots. Letting his E scale with levels down to 5 or 5.25 seconds, long enough that he can’t q-e-q-e non stop as in the first two re-reworks on PBE, but short enough to not be screwed entirely when he cast in an order other than w-q-e-q would make Ryze much more forgiving, and if implemented with the the suggestion above would let him q-e-q-e as a low-risk but low-damage alternative to w-q-e-q.

There are certainly other ways Ryze could be given power in a healthy way Ryze has the lowest mana regen in the game, and 5.14 lowered Ryze’s damage considerably, without adjusting his mana costs accordingly. This has meant that for many of Ryze’s matchups that no matter how much better he plays than his opponent, he is not only unable to kill his opponent during the small window of power of his passive, but runs OOM while doing so. A Ryze who rushed tear will loose to someone who rushed MR, simply because 100% of Ryze’s mana does less than 100% of their hp. Upping Ryze’s regen, or giving him some mechanism to recover it, would allow Ryze to fight extended battles in lane, rather than a binary check of if he has more mana than they have HP.

**Ryze’s snare is a unique, and in my opinion necessary counter to the plethora of mobility champions that have been dominating play for years. Still, the rate that he applies snare combined with its duration is overbearing, and the subject of most frustration against him. **It also is in many ways better against already low mobility champs, as even with chain snaring blinks and dashes can easily BIC through it. Even with a lowered uptime it could maintain this niche by apply knockdown, enabling it to shut down dashes, and/or by making the snare apply instantly, rather than at the end of its .25 second cast time. Between BICing and its cast time, even dashes with significantly shorter range than rune prison will still get to him, and players with good reflexes can dodge it with untargetablity.

This has been a very long post, thank you for your time. If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, I’ll try to address them. Cheers!

(This is an update of an earlier post about Ryze during the 5.11 PBE cycle, here)!)

21 Comments

Origami Kaiju7 votes

Bump.

You've obviously put a lot into this post. I don't play Ryze enough to offer any meaningful dialogue but your post seems elaborate and worthy of discussion, so here's my upvote!

MealReadytoEat4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Healer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oRhBxn5B,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-30T12:35:20.467+0000)

Bump.

You've obviously put a lot into this post. I don't play Ryze enough to offer any meaningful dialogue but your post seems elaborate and worthy of discussion, so here's my upvote!

Thanks!

Fadedpf4 votes

If I had a dollar for every time they changed the base damage on his spells I would be rich.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

{quoted}

If I had a dollar for every time they changed the base damage on his spells I would be rich.

Be about a dollar a patch!

Spartachris2 votes

You'll never Ryze to da top with that kind of attitude. You should go back to mid lane.

On a more relevant note, I think both Aatrox and Ryze have interesting potential in terms of how new itemization can affect their gameplay.

Wyrmblade2 votes

Sorry for not explaining why I don't like this very well but I'm really tired right now and about to go to sleep.

Ryze is one of my favorite champions, and please just stop messing with him.

The nerfs did exactly what they were supposed to do, which is curb his ability to duel early game. He shouldn't be able to kill you before he gets the power and mana from his first few items. I have never had a problem with his spells requiring you to stand still. With rune prison and the move speed you get from his ult he already kites melees unbelievably well, and even if they do reach him the lifesteal from his spells should be able to keep him alive.

I have never had a problem with skill shots being able to hit me while I'm casting. If someone can land a skillshot stronger than yours on you when you position to Q, then you shouldn't Q. You can still kill people while moving in between casts because your damage is insane. Just play really safe early game and only go for fights you know you can win.

I said this right after Ryze got his rework and I am going to say it again. If you buff Ryze right now, he's going to go back to being hypercancer and these same people complaining for Ryze buffs right now will complain for Ryze nerfs.

Just stop changing him. Let him rest for a couple of cycles. See where his winrate goes when people get used to not being able to faceroll and more people that actually main him start playing him. Stop the Ryze roller coaster right here where he's playable, but not shitstomping games.

mk DILLY2 votes

Here's the problem. They HAVE to change Ryze somehow because his current design is just ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he's op or up, he'll never be fair or a healthy, fun part of the game when he can near perma root someone while doing insane damage. That's just not good design. It's not about whether he has appropriate weaknesses or what not. He's just currently not designed in a good way. Having said that, I normally agree with your sentiment that Riot needs to let some things alone and see how they settle, but ryze is not one of them. That doesn't mean he come out of this more powerful than ever... Just that he needs to be changed for the health of the game.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

[{quoted}](name=mk DILLY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oRhBxn5B,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-08-01T07:27:28.637+0000)

Here's the problem. They HAVE to change Ryze somehow because his current design is just ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he's op or up, he'll never be fair or a healthy, fun part of the game when he can near perma root someone while doing insane damage.

I think we are in agreement here. My point was that a champion with ubsurb strengths can technically be balanced by having extreme weaknesses, they will never be healthy. This is where I feel Ryze is now.

SirSoap2 votes

{quoted}

Sorry for not explaining why I don't like this very well but I'm really tired right now and about to go to sleep.

Ryze is one of my favorite champions, and please just stop messing with him.

The nerfs did exactly what they were supposed to do, which is curb his ability to duel early game. He shouldn't be able to kill you before he gets the power and mana from his first few items. I have never had a problem with his spells requiring you to stand still. With rune prison and the move speed you get from his ult he already kites melees unbelievably well, and even if they do reach him the lifesteal from his spells should be able to keep him alive.

I have never had a problem with skill shots being able to hit me while I'm casting. If someone can land a skillshot stronger than yours on you when you position to Q, then you shouldn't Q. You can still kill people while moving in between casts because your damage is insane. Just play really safe early game and only go for fights you know you can win.

I said this right after Ryze got his rework and I am going to say it again. If you buff Ryze right now, he's going to go back to being hypercancer and these same people complaining for Ryze buffs right now will complain for Ryze nerfs.

Just stop changing him. Let him rest for a couple of cycles. See where his winrate goes when people get used to not being able to faceroll and more people that actually main him start playing him. Stop the Ryze roller coaster right here where he's playable, but not shitstomping games.

Did you even read his post?

Vogie2 votes

I think they should figure out just what they want him to be. They present him as a freerunning mage, then refuse to incorporate that in the design. They use terms like "runes" and "desperate power" but there's nothing "desperate" about his playstyle, and runes are just tacked into the art style. Like you said, he's more like Release Xerath, but without the flavor or design direction.

I could see them incorporating some of the design decision they've used in other recently released champions. Some other directions he could go (just spitballing) -

  • Roaming mage - Give him a reason to move around. Perhaps he's literally collecting scrolls scattered around the map, a la Bard. Perhaps whenever a champion dies, on either team, he can collect something from them to power him up - or just when he gets a kill or assist, encouraging him to roam around and gank lanes. If the design still has mana matter, Those runes could also permanently increase maximum mana, so a player can decide if he wants to go the mana-item stacking route, or the wandering route, picking up the mana in the wild. Another route is that Ryze's power is built into the scroll on his back, maybe that powerful scroll has a tendency to... escape him.

  • Combo/"Machine-Gun" Mage - Instead of tying him into a certain Combo (R)WQEQ, make his Spells stack up to a grand finish. This could be executed in a series of directions. It could be similar to a rogue in WoW, where the "points" could be anything, but the "Finish" would be an empowered version of that spell (similar to LeBlanc's R or the entire kit of Rengar). Alternatively, it could lean towards ye olde Invoker, where different combinations could give different results - a combo ending with a Q turns all of his spells into powerful skillshots for X period of time, while a combo ending in E would turn them all into AOE spells, et cetera.

  • Rune Mage - Make the Runes actually matter. "The presence of Ryze on the map causes mystical Leylines to appear", or whatnot. A rune could be a series of fixed points on the map or may temporarily around Ryze like the landing zones of Draven's Axes or Zac's blobs. Ryze's power would increase in some way (longer snares, more damage, more range, better cooldowns, decreased mana cost, incredible spell vamp, et cetera) whilst on such runes. This would provide unique opportunities for counterplay - the opponent could freeze the lane away from the runes or abuse Ryze for wanting to step out of them

  • Desperate Mage - Make Ryze the exact opposite of Vladimir - His mana matters... because his mana IS his life total. Or go the "Protoss" route, giving him a tiny life total and a mana-consuming shield. Do you itemize for more raw mana for a Singed-esque Tankiness? Do you focus on Building regen and spell vamp (Mana vamp?) for sustain? Perhaps Ryze's power is "Dirty Magic" Causing his own Mana to harm him if a buildup isn't vented properly / On time?

  • Freerunning/Hedge Mage - Make Ryze a movement style mage. Shift from Mana to a "Flow" system similar to Yasuo, or the new Echo & Harbinger items, or the Momentum Mechanic from Brawlers. Perhaps give him the ability to dodge spells, either passively or as a part of activation similar to Jax/Fiora. Perhaps the kit can also react to the change - While moving, Ryze's spells could be rapid fire, hitting lightly, with low cooldowns; but if he stays in one place, or doesn't move much, they could have a larger impact - Longer durations, more mana, more damage/range/cooldown.

  • Rogue Mage - Instead of acting like every OTHER mage that is only powered by his or her own abilities, Ryze uniquely interacts with one or more of his Summoner spells. For example, a Ryze with Ignite would have his damaging abilities leave a DoT, while Exhaust Ryze would have a Slowing effect, or a Heal Ryze would have better Spell Vamp (Or be able to cast healing spells?). It may be as simple as having larger baseline Summoner cooldowns but having them effected by Arcane Mastery's Cooldown effect, so the actual spells chosen would have a huge impact on how he's played... or as outrageous as NOT HAVING a second Summoner spell, because that effect is now integrated into his kit.

Only Play Darius2 votes

I feel like his new passive is what gimps him. He gets 5 seconds of URF mode ever 5 spell casts, and when you combine it with a point-and-click root it makes for the most gimmicky mechanic you can ever face against. Either he can permasnare and you can't fight back, or he doesn't and then his passive is worthless.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Just reread this and fixed a bunch of typos

Prinz1 votes

Interesting take on the situation. As someone who doesn't play Ryze, I like how you explained what he does, and I like how you give a unique way to buff him.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

{quoted}

Interesting take on the situation. As someone who doesn't play Ryze, I like how you explained what he does, and I like how you give a unique way to buff him.

Thanks!

TerrorSchnitzel1 votes

Why you write so much? Everybody knows the only way to deal with this blue fcking smurf fcker is delete him. No matter how many nerfs he gets his concept of spamming spells is just too toxic. He oneshots champions at lvl 3, squishy champs at lvl 2, with point and click cc, and you can't do anything against it besides being afk at tower. He is supposed to be late game champ with weak early and outscale you, but his playstyle gives him a retarded early game

Lukemeister1 votes

Do you think designing a MR/Mana item (like old banshees) is an option and if so what would it be?

MealReadytoEat1 votes

{quoted}

Do you think designing a MR/Mana item (like old banshees) is an option and if so what would it be?

I mean, chalice already exists, and the mana on old banshee's meant it had to be toned down for everyone to make it balanced on Ryze. I wont say it could never happen in a healthy manner, I just don't know what that manner would be.

Beddlam1 votes

This is a really good post. The casting animations is a huge "hidden" weakness in Ryze. His casts not cancelling move commands was a huge help, but he still needs the perma snare to not always be kited by even low mobility champs.

He has the additional problem of being one of a handful of champs who are much stronger in pro play than in solo queue. Because he is a champ with extreme weaknesses and strengths, if you can hide some if his weaknesses through coordinated team play, he becomes a monster. I think he was close to being in a good spot in 5.13 for solo queue, but as long as he is perma-ban in NA LCS he will be getting nerfs.

Taikaubo1 votes

I play Ryze A LOT, and everything you say is so true. Ever since patch 5.14, I don't see how people think Ryze is a "late game powerhouse". I fear late game because once everyone got all their items and armor, It's over. You don't do much damage, you ll quickly die, that's pretty much it. Early game is a night mare also, you CANNOT harass or anything for the first 10 minutes or else for 1 combo you use, you will use ALL of your mana. Pretty much to counter Ryze, build MR early. You can easily beat a ryze if his passive is not up, all his moves makes him stop like an idiot, and if you mess up your combo once, good luck! better have flash up!

Overall, moving while casting spells would be nice and some mana fix issue. Ryze is just crappy at the moment.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

{quoted}

I play Ryze A LOT, and everything you say is so true. Ever since patch 5.14, I don't see how people think Ryze is a "late game powerhouse". I fear late game because once everyone got all their items and armor, It's over. You don't do much damage, you ll quickly die, that's pretty much it. Early game is a night mare also, you CANNOT harass or anything for the first 10 minutes or else for 1 combo you use, you will use ALL of your mana. Pretty much to counter Ryze, build MR early. You can easily beat a ryze if his passive is not up, all his moves makes him stop like an idiot, and if you mess up your combo once, good luck! better have flash up!

Overall, moving while casting spells would be nice and some mana fix issue. Ryze is just crappy at the moment.

His late game is EXTREMELY comp dependent, both on your team and theirs. If Ryze is forced to front line/engage, he sucks, and if his opponents have good hard cc, even if its usually hard to land, he's screwed. When he has someone else on his team to hard engage and soak the CC though, he is golden.

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