Melee top laners having a disadvantage against ranged top laners.

Handy Sandy ·Oct 22, 2016·16 votes·3,327 views

Is that an actual problem, or is it just something that people complain about because that's what they do.

37 Comments

MarshbouyOct 22, 201615 votes

Both.

MoonBlade92Oct 22, 20168 votes

It isn't even nececarily true. Irelia, Panth, sometimes Darius stomp many ranged top matchups. On the other hand, Maokai and Malaphite can often just ignore the other laner. Most people are just salty about this ,but the "ranged top defense force"people are completely idiotic, spouting claims like "fighters are fine" (citing Darius and Renek as "fighters")

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 22, 20168 votes

looks like from the way the boards go , its something people do , non stop is cry....

but no shit a range champ should have an advantage over a melee... as a melee champ you gotta pick your spots and when the time is right go all in and kill or be killed.

its just like any other lane match up it has advantages and disadvantages

aka melee mid vs range mid

melee support vs ranged poke support

engage support vs disengage support

the list goes on and on

Hinagiku33Oct 23, 20162 votes

The problem of melee vs ranged is very real and Riot fully acknowledges that it is a problem they have been trying to solve since Beta.

Irelia was designed as a melee champ that could lane against both tanky melee and poke-heavy ranged top laners. This is the kind of kit it takes to not become trash if a melee goes up against a ranged champ.

Yasuo was designed as a melee bot lane Marksman that could handle laning against 2 ranged champs with the help of a support. Turns out a kit that can do that is far, far better used against a single ranged opponent in mid lane.

Mordekaiser ridiculous rework, with all that silly bonus EXP, was done for the sole purpose of letting him lane against ranged champs in the bot lane. Even then it only worked because of overpowered numbers and he has since gotten changes and moved back to solo lanes where range still stomps him because he lacks CC.

Remember the rest of the Juggernaut Update? All of them were designed to handle ranged top laners, but largely failed. Because any melee champ that can fight ranged champs is ultra-cancer to any other melee champ. So they were tweaked and range became the way you deal with Juggernauts giving them the exact same problem as every other melee champ once again.

The issue is NOT that range is an advantage. The issue is that ranged champs don't have a real, tangible DISADVANTAGE for being ranged. It's a pure bonus with no downside. Being melee is an inherent disadvantage with no upside. Even with higher base stats and insane kits with dashes and huge bursts of damage melee champs still suck laning against ranged champs. Every update melee champs get more and more ridiculous, overloaded, and overtuned just to keep them playable. This just isn't good for long-term game health but until Riot can manage to give range a viable weakness it will persist.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 23, 20162 votes

so i guess we need to either delete all the ranged champs so its a melee only game... or get rid of all melee champs and a range only champ pool

cuz other then that there is zero ways to balance this issue....

CalabokOct 22, 20167 votes

yes

EthextremeOct 22, 20161 votes

Yes, unless you play me

ZephyrDrakeOct 22, 20165 votes

it really depends on the matchup, also people just think they can play against ranged champions the exact same way as they do against melee ones and nothing bad will happen to them and then they realize that doing that will only result in them being destroyed

agbudarOct 22, 20164 votes

ask that to the 2/13/4 losing vayne toplane vs garen.

i ganked the bejeesus out of her with Rammus

garen ended the game 23/4/15

OdinakosOct 22, 20163 votes

Just a tip for those matches, start ignoring that lane if you see it fall quite behind. Especially as a low damage jungler. Better snowball someone else. Just ignore their whining, mute them if nessesary and do the best to win the game. I always ask my jungler to focus other lanes if i am loosing exept if more than 1 people are coming (eg jungle and mid).

agbudarOct 22, 20162 votes

no i was as helping garen

OdinakosOct 22, 20161 votes

I thought she was in your team and you were complaining about her (its vayne totally understandable :P). Sorry brainfart.

Its a good advice nonetheless, but you seem to know it. Really grinds my gears when junglers gang my lane when severely behind when there are other snowball lanes at equal or winning.

agbudarOct 23, 20161 votes

its ok i feel that a lot of people these days take the side of ranged to quickly too easily probably because i just so happen to main rammus a direct counter to this kinda meta.

also item 3075 as underpowered as it is its still one of the best ways to get an enemy adc killed.

FalconPawwwwnchOct 22, 20164 votes

Just watch any high elo stream

It's literally Jayce and Kennen shitting on everything

AhristocatsOct 23, 20162 votes

yeah, but what you forgot is that 99% of board isn't high elo, which explains why they are so blind regarding ranged champs.

just look at the comments of this thread.

Baby GhoulOct 23, 20163 votes

It depends on who you're playing.

Some top laners like Irelia Renekton Illaoi Riven Malphite and Rumble have ways to cope with range poke. Others like Nasus don't. Top lane is a winner take all environment, so the effects of losing lane linger for much longer than in other lanes.

Quinn is still a thing, and it is still disgusting.

shamationOct 22, 20162 votes

i think it depends on the matchup and how much mobility/cc that melee champ has access too

EthextremeOct 22, 20162 votes

it's called strategy SMH 133 characters, 5 vs 5 each game. So know which champ plays what lanes and learn to counter there picks and be prepared for your picks to be countered. item 1038 Seriously people complaining about the structure of a game. WTF

1 800 Top LaneOct 23, 20161 votes

Negative. Playing a ranged ADC top against a tank/bruiser top is not "Counter play" It's you being selfish and bringing nothing to help your team, You lose out on having a tank and more than half the time the ability to engage. Your team doesn't need another carry. Playing something so volatile top is absurd when 4 other people are counting on you.

DunkinNoobsOct 23, 20162 votes

It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, so I have no idea why people are complaining about it so much now. Remember Quinn top? That was actual cancer. Jayce, Kennen, and Gnar aren't nearly as oppressive by comparison. The creep aggro and tower aggro changes they made this season have made melee vs ranged far more equitable as well compared to previous seasons.

1 800 Top LaneOct 23, 20162 votes

Honestly I main top lane, as my name suggests. I rarely struggle against ranged tops. I eat that ignite thunderlords ranged top shit for breakfast, It's selfish on your team and I punish the shit out of it.

TheHappyReaperzOct 22, 20161 votes

Yes and no.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 22, 20161 votes

league is the only game that has a ranged/melee problem.

420 gramsOct 22, 20161 votes

I don't think it's a problem, but there should be a greater base damage difference. Otherwise there is no point in getting a melee champ other than their kit. Plus with thunderlords making it so easy to get burst damage, melees don't really have much of a chance.

PermabannedGarenOct 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Is that an actual problem, or is it just something that people complain about because that's what they do.

A little bit of both.

People who complain about champions like Quinn are idiots who are too butthurt to admit they were countered fair and square but the counter pick came with a drawback (Quinn provides little to a team as the game goes on beyond damage, and her damage is frankly not particularly significant late game).

But then there are serious problem champions like Gnar or Kennen, who heavily bully melees in lane, are very hard to engage on, are mobile, have bucketloads of crowd control for team fights, deal significant damage all game (particularly Kennen), and are durable (particularly Gnar, though Kennen is very deceptively durable due to his build and the resistances on his E).

They don't really give up anything for their lane dominance.

Teridax68Oct 22, 20161 votes

It's both. Part of it is players overreacting to Worlds and not expecting ranged champions in top lane at all, but part of it does come from genuine issues with melee vs. ranged in lane. Range in itself is so powerful in lane that it can turn champions intended to peak late-game into early-game bullies versus melee opponents, including actual lane bullies. There aren't any really great tools for laners to defend themselves against harass, which means melee top laners often end up with far fewer options against ranged champions purely because of their range disadvantage. Ultimately, melee top laners can still win against ranged top laners, and only relatively few ranged champions can go into top lane without getting eaten alive by divers or the enemy jungler, but the problem picks stand out in that they don't really seem to be paying anything for their laning advantage, or falling off beyond the laning phase.

Pill SlingerOct 23, 20161 votes

Well, melee top laners have 8 of the top 12 win rates.

TalisidOct 23, 20161 votes

The problem is they nerfed most of the melee top lanes that can deal with ranged top laners like Irelia

Handy Sandy Oct 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The problem is they nerfed most of the melee top lanes that can deal with ranged top laners like

Just saying, just because something is nerfed doesn't mean it still does it's job.

HideOnUrMomsBushOct 23, 20161 votes

Irelia is definitely viable right now. She can still deal with ranged top laners.

Jayce is popular right now, and Irelia is one of Jayce's harder matchups.

ArnoldSchwarzensOct 23, 20161 votes

The current meta is full of ranged and semi-ranged toplaners like Jayce, Rumble Gnar etc. and those who counter these champions. I think the reason why people are complaining about it much more than let's say the carry toplaner meta is because ranged toplaners have the element of frustration attached to them. Getting bullied, poked and kited isn't necessarily fun.

Maybe this is going to change in the preseason, I hope so at least. Even in a Meta where ranged toplaners are not really that good they are still just so unfun to play against.

EbololOct 23, 20161 votes

Of course they do, they're supposed to. One of the reasons you pick these ranged top laners is to beat the melee ones or prevent your enemy from picking one because you'll just get shit on in lane so hard. How do you think they all made it into the meta?

ElishevaOct 23, 20161 votes

Something people need to seriously understand. Champions aren't made for specific lanes most of the time. Any champ can go anywhere. There is no such thing as a "ranged toplaner," just a ranged champion who happens to be going top this game.

LegendmakerGXOct 23, 20161 votes

I don't mind some of them like quin since you can counter her but my problem is with Gnar Jayce Nidalee since you can pick a top that can close the gap and punish them for their mistakes but for these 3 and some others they can just change their ability to be close range champion with cool down reset, Gnar is sort of balance when he has to actually get his rage bar to go mega but the 3 hit proc that doesn't have a reset time like Ekko 3 hit is just B.S when he get's frozen mallet.

CarmellaFromNYOct 23, 20161 votes

Ranged top laners have advantages over melee top laners. Melee top laners also have other advantages over the same ranged top laners

Lord GalvatronOct 23, 20161 votes

Generally from my experience being against a ranged top later, the matchup is hell for the first 5-10 min or so until you get items and t2 boots. You then proceed to stop them into the ground and shove your lane harder then if you attached a snow plow onto Sion when he was Ulting.

LohenngrammOct 23, 20161 votes

I feel like one way to fix the problem is through removing Marksmen's U-shaped power curve. This can be accomplished by crippling their early damage/attack speed to keep them from abusing their range, with compensation to power growth per level so that their Level 11 is comparable to the way it is now. Doing so would actually make marksmen dependent on their supports for survivability and farming (though that may push poke supports out of the meta) and would keep the "late-game AD Carry" from bullying a melee opponent out of lane.