ADCs can go mid like jhin or varus, but midlaners can't go APC?

Handy Sandy ·Sep 21, 2016·28 votes·3,377 views

Why not... ;-;

94 Comments

SteelflameSep 21, 201641 votes

Because of one critical reason. Mages scale insanely hard on levels, which duo laning cost them XP and puts them 2-4 levels behind what they could have mid.

That is 100% the reason right there.

ProfDrDeathSep 22, 20164 votes

This.

Mages not going bot lane (or, pretty much, everyone not going bot lane but RANGED ADCs) has nothing to do with tower taking, and everything with XP distribution.

Melees of all kinds need XP for the increased tankiness from base stats. Ability focused champions need XP for their damage. On the other, auto-attack damage does not scale as hard with XP - on most ADCs, buying a BF Sword gives you about the same amount of AD as 17 levels of experience. And being range means that you do not require the increased tankiness from base stats as much - for most champions, range does not scale with XP.

For the last point, there are obviously exceptions Tristana KogMaw Jinx ), but if the range increase is tied to an ability, that ability tends to be leveled first.

RalanrSep 22, 20161 votes

This is what prevents bruisers bot sadly.

Really hard to justify diversity here.

TacoTheKittenSep 22, 20161 votes

[deleted]

EndlessSorcererSep 23, 20161 votes

Or everyone will despise the changes and only use them in that role when they are absolutely broken. Mordekaiser

SpoofghoulSep 22, 20163 votes

what this man said

some champs value XP over gold

others value gold over xp

and for some neither is as important becasue of having utility thus statring out powerfull without really being capable of falling behind in usefullness

You see there are 2 roles who arent tied to xp the support because they pack so much utility and the adc because they scale mostly on gold added bonus is the support also not needing gold to be usefull so they can effectively duo lane with the adc who is way less reliant on xp aswell

hence the duo botlane

another reason for duo bot is that its shorter then top so more easy to stay safe so you wont give double kills as easy when overextended

top champs used to be tanky so they could walk back to turret without taking too much damage but sadly enough that has changed now :(

And mid mages had range but where easily killed due to lack of defense and mobility putting them in the shortest lane where xp could also be gathered fastest was the logical choice, safest lane for champs with long range as well as gaining the much appreciated xp faster

And voila you got yourself a metagame

AdriqnoheeSep 22, 20162 votes

I agree with most of it, but bot is not shorter than top, they're the same lane but inverted.

Attticus FinchSep 21, 20164 votes

Because APC's can't rush down towers-.

BisaknospSep 22, 20167 votes

Ziggs

RavenMagusSep 22, 20162 votes

Really can't rush down towers THAT hard. Not early game at least.

His tower killing potential scales really, really, really hard - hard enough to the point that in lategame he can literally one-shot nexus turrets with a single autoattack - but in the early game he's not much better than an ADC (and probably a bit worse since he doesn't have attackspeed).

AmetDeCryptSep 22, 20161 votes

Azir ?

ChaoticPineconeSep 22, 20161 votes

W cant be used on towers anymore. And it still never kept up with ADC levels of damage at any point of the game.

AmetDeCryptSep 22, 20161 votes

he builds attack speed and ap hurts towers now.

ChaoticPineconeSep 22, 20161 votes

What do you mean that "ap hurts towers now"?

And he still doesnt push down towers as fast as an ADC.

PoskeSep 22, 20161 votes

Read Azir W

ChaoticPineconeSep 22, 20165 votes

What a useless response. I dont understand why people even bother responding if you have nothing to say.

Nothing in Azir's W says anything about doing damage to turrets, except that in patch 6.11 "Removed: Casting on top of turrets to damage them". It also says that soldiers cant attack turrets.

So again - how does he push down towers as fast as an ADC? Because he has 60% bonus AS with his measly 100 AD at level 18? When ADCs get 300+ AD and purchase more than 60% AS?

PoskeSep 22, 20164 votes

I AM ON THE EDGE OF FLAMING YOU

YOU FKING MORON MAGES DO 50% OF THEIR AP TO TOWER

HOLY FK

get educated

NineTailedMysticSep 22, 20165 votes

But what did that have to do with Azir W? His free AS applying that magic damage?

TyrekGoldenspearSep 22, 20162 votes

Azirs W gives him free attack speed.

So what he is saying is that his W gives him free stats to take down towers, so he is a candidate in the list of AP champs that can take down towers.

It Hertz When IPSep 22, 20163 votes

'cept it doesn't sound much better than mages with absurd AP levels (Veigar), mages with low-CD abilities that build Lichbane (Ziggs), or Teemo with built in on-hit magic damage.

Especially since mages don't usually build armor pen, meaning that the regular AA damage isn't as effective as AP modifiers.

And feeding back into the original point, none of them - not even Azir - cannot take down towers at the same pace as most ADCs at a comparable level/build progress.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 22, 20161 votes

True, but he can take down champions at a faster rate than most ADCs, which gives everyone else on his team time to take towers down faster.

So you see, he does take down towers faster, just in a more roundabout way. :^)

RavenMagusSep 22, 20161 votes

Azir's not bad. Not as good as Ziggs still, not as good as anyone who builds Lichbane, and still not as good as an ADC especially in the early game.

He'll be better than most of the non-Lichbane mage roster, though.

bill84Sep 22, 20164 votes

the few who build as can now that they added the magic damage to towers based on ap. Also, if you get lategame veig with like 1.5k AP, you can pretty much 4-5 shot towers.

NineTailedMysticSep 22, 20162 votes

Magic damage on towers has been around for a while. It just got buffed form 40% to 50% in the mage update I believe.

AdriqnoheeSep 22, 20161 votes

Its has been at thing since season 1, the only thing that really changed is that extra magic damage is separated from the physical damage when the numbers come, that's why people think only now they do more damage based on AP.

Supreme Senpai69Sep 22, 20163 votes

I go Veigar APC sometimes. Fuck levels, just lemme stack my Q. It has lots of range too.

Serika ZeroSep 22, 20163 votes

Because LoL is an adc meta since season 1 and ADC mains still say they are feeling weak despite being the only mandatory class in the game to the point "marksmen" or "adc" became the name of the position itself

Hardstuck G4Sep 23, 20161 votes

People talking about how it's the only mandatory class. Smh. It's because we excel at taking towers, and this is an objective game, not a TDM game

Serika ZeroSep 23, 20162 votes

so do Azir, Ziggs and Diana, but I don't see them either be Mandatory. Heck, when after a single season Azir of being good was nerfed to the ground

Hardstuck G4Sep 23, 20161 votes

Azir was nerfed because a good Azir is horribly oppressive and difficult to handle. Ziggs is THE tower pushing APC, his passive and W literally designed to take towers. And Diana is only good at taking towers because her passive scales well with AS/AP and hits towers

Serika ZeroSep 23, 20162 votes

i still don't see them mandatory >.> adcs are

and no, azir wasn't oppressive and difficult to handle, he was an ap adc.............. i wonder why he got gutted....

Hardstuck G4Sep 24, 20161 votes

Azir wasn't oppressive? This game is balanced primarily on pro player, and Azir was practically pick or ban and ridiculously strong. That's why he got gutted. He was most definitely the most oppressive champ in the meta at the time

Serika ZeroSep 24, 20161 votes

yes, because the 200 players playing in all divisions of lcs > everyone else fuck this balance around top players

and for the record, one of my mains is Diana (the other one atm is Akali). And Azir was one of my counters as I couldn't dash over his dumb wall, I still think it was unfairly dumped and gutted just because he threatened the position of adc overlords

Hardstuck G4Sep 24, 20161 votes

That's nowhere near the reason he was gutted. Once more, he was oppressive and incredibly difficult to handle at any point in the game. He was an early game bully as well as a mid/late game powerhouse. He was strong, and nerfed for it. God, you're dense

Serika ZeroSep 25, 20161 votes

then adcs are have an superb early game where they can bully, as well as being a mid and late game power houses? again, azir was similar to adcs, he dealt damage based on auto attacks. And I don't see any adc gutted to the point their win rate is 40%

and again, i'm playing champions azir counters. Yet he was never "super mega oppressive", at least, not different from any caitlyn, draven, ashe, sivir and so on

Hardstuck G4Sep 25, 20161 votes

"Azir’s been a priority pick for a while now, reclaiming his throne as the top-tier midlaner across the globe. With Midseason’s waters still relatively untested as pro play resumes (where Azir primarily sees the most play), we’re focusing on culling some of the Emperor’s more extraneous power. Azir’s signature strengths lie in his high sustained damage as well as his ‘Shurima Shuffle’ to turn the tables on opponents with a flashy initiation. By leaving these intact, we can get a better look at how Azir fares against newer challengers to his midlane throne while still addressing his dominance." That is exactly what Riot posted when they nerfed him again. His win rate is crazy low because people don't understand how to play him. He was ridiculously oppressive, and had a stupid high ban rate too.

Serika ZeroSep 25, 20161 votes

its still not 100% like adcs have

and riot also says "Diana's reason to be picked is because of her E".

Diana’s gameplay - like that of many divers - consists of finding the right moment to dash onto a priority target and sickle them to death. Where Diana should stand out from other divers is in her ability to pull enemy champions together and set them up for small Area of Effect follow up (Orianna, that’s you). To that end, we’re sharpening Moonfall’s effectiveness when pulling in stragglers so that the right teammates feel good about having Diana, not just any diver

News flash: Diana is an assassin. News flash 2: Diana's most NOT used spell and reason she DOESN'T GET PICKED FOR is her E. You can remove MoonFall from her kit, and she would still be the same, she would still be Diana. And Diana mains would still love playing her even if her E gets deleted.

Would Zed players still play Zed if E was removed from Zed? Yes. Would Zed players still play Zed if W was removed from Zed? No. Yet, Riot takes as "identity" whatever they want. And they will twist every single statistic (i remember the ones of "dynamic q is less toxic" or "dynamic q is preferred by most of our players") to suit whatever agenda they currently have, without regard for telling the players the truth or informing them of stuff.

At the end of the line lies one single truth: Riot will say whatever the fuck they want, and not always the truth, therefore, you need to take under account things by yourself and not take everything you are being told for granted, otherwise we would've had a "pure soloq" in february, and a dominion (what's a dominion???) ranked a few years ago.

Hardstuck G4Sep 25, 20161 votes

I agree, Riot lies about what they say. They don't understand their champions. For instance, calling Viktor an "evil mastermind". However, they didn't nerf Azir because he threatened ADCs (otherwise every assassin would be gutted.). They nerfed him because he made mid lane matchups boring and one sided in LCS, and that ruins money for them

Serika ZeroSep 25, 20161 votes

i agree with that part regarding lcs, but also the adc part is true. Most apcs that are similar to adcs (like cassio, azir, kayle) usually get nerfed into the ground after a while.

its sad because azir was not op in non competitive, he was at most 55% win rate in soloq (in dia+), even less in lower elo. I know how oppressive he can be vs melees (since i play diana), but he wasn't OMG I CAN'T DO SHIT like they love to paint him :s

La BarbotteSep 22, 20163 votes

Kindred Graves Twitch jg, or Varus Ezreal Jhin mid, no one cares, i respond with Azir Cassiopeia Karthus bot, and they all troll cause im the problem... while i get constant dps as i should do, only this time its not AD

ninjaroxasSep 22, 20161 votes

Well kindred is meant to jg

La BarbotteSep 22, 20163 votes

exact, that wasnt the point, the point was we already have an adc, so pick a APC that can give constant dps is still an option. but sheeple gotta play what LC$ plays, sad XD

Sir FuzziSep 22, 20162 votes

I'm convinced a lot of bot lane combos-- if they were played as combos-- would work swimmingly. It's just that for most people, the experiment phase would require time and a lot of people just aren't that patient.

RavenMagusSep 22, 20162 votes

I think there's a whole lot of minor reasons why that all add up together.

First, mages scale better with levels, and so they really want the solo lane experience. I don't think it's AS big a deal as people make it out to be, but again, minor issues that all add up.

Secondly, AP is really easy to itemize against early on (Hexdrinker, Abyssal) whereas there's nothing you can really build against AD damage to the same effect (unless you're a tank, which a botlane carry typically isn't). You might delay an ADC's build by quite a bit if you force them to build a Hexdrinker - but then such an item gives them a pretty big advantage and their lane will be a lot easier.

Third, teams practically require an ADC with how hard they scale. There's only a couple APC champs that can even come close to the late game damage output of an ADC (Karthus and Cassi come to mind) but then autoattacks are significantly harder to outplay than anything a mage does, and a full build ADC can be extremely hard to deal with because of that.

Personally, I think sending a mage bot can definitely work - but like many other things in the game, it just isn't optimal.

MLDzXnRRRSep 22, 20162 votes

Because when you go OOM, the enemy ADC can 1v2 your botlane and say "goodbye" to your turret. The ADC also gets way more damage after their first back compared to the APC.

CatastropSep 25, 20162 votes

APC's can't thrive in duo lanes as they do solo, the loss of levels in their abilities does a lot to their damage. ADC's, however can thrive in either because they still have autos for damage provided they have the range and utility needed to be a midlaner.

UberAffeSep 21, 20161 votes

Because abilities can't be used on turrets (for the most part) and most apc's aren't auto attack based. Teemo Kayle are the only two I can think of off the bat that would still be good enough at taking turrets aside from like heimer maybe.

Gary B EnkelisSep 21, 20161 votes

It doesn't matter if your ADC is bot, top, jungle, or mid. Having an ADC to take turrets is separate from the lane they're in.

I dunno.

I think it happens to work out that ADCs traditionally go bot because they're weak early, they scale more with items than levels, and it's close to dragon. Having a weak ADC bot with a Support means they're protected and can show up for Dragon.

Handy Sandy Sep 22, 20161 votes

I think it happens to work out that ADCs traditionally go bot because they're weak early, they scale more with items than levels, and it's close to dragon. Having a weak ADC bot with a Support means they're protected and can show up for Dragon.

Midlane is also close to dragon, and a lot of mages have worse early games than ADCs since they need to use mana to harass which they run out of really easily, while an ADC can auto attack a couple times and a third of the enemy's health is gone. A lot of mages have way worse early games, and a support would keep them way safer than they are when they're alone with no escapes. Azir Cassiopeia Veigar Xerath to name a few..