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I want more justifiable reasoning than a one sentance context for your balance changes, Riot.

melior sum··87 votes·16,960 views

Where is the "internal data" that you guys go off of?

Where are the metrics that told you it was okay to buff Khazix the way you did?

Where in the meta data does it say that Graves has been okay for the past 20 patches? Especially after item 3095 and Dark Harvest have been picked on him frequently?

Where in this construct of all knowing data does it say Akali doesn't need any nerfs to her over bearing kit?

Where in this matrix of data does it say it's okay for Urgot to drown out so many picks in the top lane?

Where in this library of data does it say that Jax is in an okay spot, and is no way overbearing to other champions in the top lane?

Where in this helix of forbidden knowledge is it okay for Jhin , a champion who was designed around being immobile, to have the movement speed of Vayne with her ultimate on, ALL THE TIME?

Where in any of this damn data, is it okay for around 20 champions to completely dominate the entire game?

I'll tell you what this data really is, $$$$$$$$$$$, yeah. Kha championship golden chroma coming out? Want more than just the hardcore mains to play him during worlds? Buff the champion so everyone is interested in playing this champion and buying the worlds pass.

Good job riot, daddy Tencent has his hand so far up your ass that he's playing the fucking saxophone with your vocal cords.

Pathetic.

64 Comments

SHANK LUX MAINS12 votes

"No one on our balance team has ever been higher than low diamond" There you go that's the reason for most dumb changes. Literally look up the balance team and op.gg their accounts, most of them are low elo hardstuck

FurriesAreHot5 votes

Source Cited: Nothing!

SociaI Justice19 votes

source cited: riots balance team https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/4juB9T8l-quick-gameplay-thoughts-october-27 no one on the riots balance team is currently higher than d5 nor were they ever higher than "low dia", mind you that the thread in question was cherry picked to prove that riots balance team isn't low elo, literally none of them are higher than low dia and most of them are around gold - silver.

FurriesAreHot4 votes

Same post you linked: These aren’t the only members of the gameplay team, there are more that are higher or lower rank” as well as “this isn’t the only team responsible for balance”

SociaI Justice13 votes

these people were literally cherry picked to show that the team is """"high elo"""", if you actually want to believe rest of em are higher elo feel free but it isn't the case.

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Until you provide evidence for that which contradicts mine, I'll gladly hold my position.

SociaI Justice2 votes

you even misquoted the post and you didn't have any evidence to begin with, i ain't got shit for you asides from "think for once".

FurriesAreHot1 votes

I just provided evidence in the form of a quote. Claiming its misquoting without saying how is as good as saying "no you're wrong because I'm right"

SociaI Justice3 votes

what you quoted: "These aren’t the only members of the gameplay team, there are more that are higher or lower rank", was literally never said, it doesn't get any more clear than that when it comes to misquoting.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

https://i.imgur.com/EO518Q9.png

SociaI Justice3 votes

the post mentioned that there are other low dias not "higher ranked".

FurriesAreHot1 votes

"Other Diamond+ players as well"

Read?

SociaI Justice3 votes

other dia+ =/= higher rated, anyways since you are clearly lacking any idea of what you are talking about i'm done with this discussion now.

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Other diamond plus LITERALLY means other players in diamond and above. You've lost my friend.

chipndip11 votes

Where the fuck do you get off?

Like, the basis of your WHOLE argument is that the entire balance team is low Diamond or worse, and in the post you linked SOMEONE IS LISTED AS DIAMOND 2.

I'm so fucking sick of these boards.

SociaI Justice1 votes

that guy is plat 2, i know you don't accept facts already though so i'll skip the arguing.

Marothennan1 votes

And we'll gladly just go around you

SHANK LUX MAINS3 votes

Look at challenger. See and rioters? Nope. Look at every rioters op.gg, see anyone who has peaked above d3 in the past several seasons? Nope. They're mostly silver and gold garbage players.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

I highly, highly, highly doubt you have even the slightest clue of the entire gameplay and balance teams summoner names.

SHANK LUX MAINS3 votes

They literally named the 5 highest elo rioters and the highest was d3 0 lp peak and none of them play more than enough to just not decay and none of them have high winrates

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Where does it say they are the highest ELO? The same post says there are other Diamond+ Rioters on the teams.

SHANK LUX MAINS1 votes

With 0 proof to back that up and considering it was their response to being called out for being low elo it was def the top 5. The only rioter ive ever seen above diamond was a cass 1 trick who wasn't on the balance team. Its a well known fact all balance team players are in low elo or chall players wouldn't be saying that because they'd be in their games. Rioters are on average silver-gold with a few low diamond players, you can literally just google the team staff members and then op.gg their accounts

FurriesAreHot1 votes

E V I D E N C E is all i ask for. All im getting is "DO IT YOURSELF"

SHANK LUX MAINS1 votes

There is literally a link to a post by riot higher in this thread where they namedrop a bunch of low diamond 0 lp players as proof balance team isn't low elo

SociaI Justice3 votes

not that i don't agree with you in general but there are rioters in masters and challenger, namely play-testers (aka ex pros that were hired) but they don't have anything to do with balance.

AirKingNeo2 votes

The contradiction is that Riot was in a position to show their "high elo players". That type of situation means they would provide their best players, as that would be most effective to dispel the 'myth' that their balance team is 'silver'.

They provided low diamond players, so the person above you claims. If they had higher tier players, they would provide them to dispel the myth, but they didn't provide anyone higher.

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Except, Meddler states in the post, and I quote: "This isn't the full Live Gameplay team. There are some lower ranked folks on the team too, and some other Diamond+ players as well."

sir d wreck1 votes

You are actually cherry picking that article yourself, and you are leaving out an important disclaimer that changes most of what you're saying.

Here is the quote from the article:

We've also got a separate team called Playtest with a higher average ranking again (generally high diamond to masters) who are focused on assessing upcoming changes and how they'll impact the game.

Clearly, their balance team doesn't need to be filled with mostly challenger/master players if they use the data given from people who are high elo that help them playtest. Their job is to balance the game, not play it as the top 1% of players in the world - you expect most of their balance team to be THAT HIGH ELO? He did say there was some higher that he didn't list, but their point was to prove they weren't made up of all silver players, which he proved.

Here is an comparison I'll make:

There is many composers who don't even play instruments, but yet they'll write songs because they have an understanding how to do it. So, I don't expect Riot's whole balance team to be challenger/master tier. They probably got full time jobs and families and busy lives. High elos like that are often streamers who play games as their 'job', so it's easier to maintain a high elo. That's why they have a playtest team who are mostly the highest elos, so they don't need to grind like that just so they have the right to justify their balance decisions based on the data they receive.

SociaI Justice1 votes

i ain't cherry picking shit, if you read the thread you would have seen me correcting someone on claiming that there are no highelo rioters in the game by: "not that i don't agree with you in general but there are rioters in masters and challenger, namely play-testers (aka ex pros that were hired) but they don't have anything to do with balance."

the post was about the balance team being low dia peak which is true and which i provided the source for, and play-testers really do have nothing to do with balance, they test whether the changes crash the servers etc after which it goes straight to pbe.

sir d wreck1 votes

Yes, but you said they are cherry picking. That's usually a bad thing, however you didn't explain that it's completely justified to cherry pick in this case because the whole balance team doesn't need to be high elo in the first place. You pointing out that one thing, and not including the fact they have a playtest team is cherry picking in the bad way. So you may wanna include that for the people who won't go scouring through the whole thread to find your justification on something you said in an earlier comment.. why not just include all the context first? Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to smear Riot unjustly.

And another thing you said:

they test whether the changes crash the servers etc after which it goes straight to pbe.

Meddler in the post you linked:

We've also got a separate team called Playtest with a higher average ranking again (generally high diamond to masters) who are focused on assessing upcoming changes and how they'll impact the game.

What are you talking about "test the servers for crashing"? Why on Earth would they need high elo people to test the server stability? They are probably giving them experimental changes to see if they can be abused, if they feel clunky, or to see how a high elo player would utilize something. Not to test server stability..

SociaI Justice1 votes

They are probably giving them experimental changes to see if they can be abused, if they feel clunky, or to see how a high elo player would utilize something. Not to test server stability..

remember when galio buffs got off of pbe? every player above the d5 knew he was broken as shit and would break the game, you a high elo playtesting team was like "yeah, this is fine, let it go boys"?

while i'm sure they occasionally provide riot with feedback on balance they don't affect the balance since ya know the play testers job is to test shit for bugs / crashes / """gamebreaking""" stuff (in theory this would include _some balance _ in the sense they don't let anything completely ridiculous go through, well without mentioning it to the balance team anyways, but this doesn't seem to be the case or riot simply doesn't listen to them), also if you read about the playtesting teams thoughts you can see that they don't really agree with the balance riot has going.

You pointing out that one thing, and not including the fact they have a playtest team is cherry picking in the bad way.

again the question was about the balance team, whether riot has a challenger 800 lp janitor or art designer is irrelevant to the post / source requested.

but you said they are cherry picking. That's usually a bad thing, however you didn't explain that it's completely justified to cherry pick in this case because the whole balance team doesn't need to be high elo in the first place

well they are cherry picking, while i don't disagree with the fact that you don't need to be high elo to be good at balancing the game (plenty of low ranked players understand the game and balance very well, coaches and analysts are a good example of this) riots balance team isn't good at balancing the game nor are they good at the game, if they were replaced with random challenger players would it improve the balance? yes. if they were replaced by low ranked people that understood the game it would as well.

TL;DR: you don't need to be high elo to understand the game but high elo players sure as hell understand it better than riots balance team does.

SHANK LUX MAINS2 votes

You can literally look up riots balance team, op.gg them, and see theyre all low elo with a few low diamond exceptions here and there

Saianna5 votes

Tbh you don't have to be challenger to actually know what's wrong with the game.

Heck, being a challenger actualy could prove to make balance-decisions all the worse, as you'd look at YOUR, challenger, level. Needless to say solid 90%~ of playerbase would be left out on your changes.

All it takes is:

  1. common sense
  2. overall knowledge of the game
  3. experience with the game
  4. feeling of NEED to make the game better
  5. Trying to keep ones bias and agendas on short leash
SHANK LUX MAINS3 votes

If youre silver or gold, you have extremely limited game knowledge and d5, the highest rank rioters tend to get, can also be reached with minimal game knowledge. Outside of masters and chall you don't have to understand the game and outside of high plat and diamond you don't even have to be good at it. Saying a gold rioter has enough knowledge to make changes to the game is like saying a fresh recruit has enough knowledge to lead and army. If they understood the game, they wouldn't be giga low elo.

Edit: also they don't keep their own bias out of it at all. Shaco was literally nerfed because a rioter adc main didn't like playing against him

Saianna2 votes

If youre silver or gold, you have extremely limited game knowledge

Not true at all. You gain knowledge by playing and 6-year silver (who simply doesn't give a damn about ranked) is more knowledgeable than most of 1-tric ponies diamonds.

SHANK LUX MAINS1 votes

{quoted}

Not true at all. You gain knowledge by playing and 6-year silver (who simply doesn't give a damn about ranked) is more knowledgeable than most of 1-tric ponies diamonds.

They definitely aren't or they wouldn't be silver. If you know the game as well as a diamond you can easily hit plat in 20 games. People smurfing hit diamond in like 30-40 games all the time.

AirKingNeo2 votes

that's somewhat true

but the balance team is still really terrible at their job

Kadexe12 votes

Most of those champions were buffed because Riot wants them to appear in Worlds. Simple as that. They're exciting picks (if they're not picked/banned every game) and Riot figured they wouldn't be OP in soloqueue if they were just a bit stronger.

IainG102 votes

They were wrong, but you probably hit the nail on the head there otherwise.

Anatera8 votes

They don't. The only data they're concerned with is whether or not people will watch their tournaments. Not whether or not the game is in a healthy state. Of course, they'd never admit that and we'd never know for sure 100%, but given the changes they've been making lately, it's an entirely reasonable conclusion to come to through abductive reasoning.

Throughout its entire existence, I've always thought League was a flawed game, but even at its worst, it still had some semblance of fun. The game right now is provably the exact opposite. Yet, Riot clearly and obviously doesn't care, unless they are forced to care by the players (as evidenced by half a year of negative feedback they've been receiving and casually ignoring). Have you EVER encountered a product, movie, game, etc. that was good because the people behind it forced themselves to do something, based on an entirely flawed premise of what they think their customer base wants? Yeah, neither have I.

Riot THINKS they know what people want to watch at Worlds. They don't actually KNOW. They THINK they know what kind of meta we want to play. They don't actually KNOW. They're making guesses with these changes.

The "data" that they use to make those changes is always stated in order to justify the changes from the start, regardless of their validity. Even if they do have "data" that they're using to make these changes, it would still be the wrong way to do it, because League is a game. Your personal experience/feeling of the game is part of the equation, which is something Riot no longer holds in high regard. The right way to do it is to consider both the data and the feel of the game equally, but it's hard and takes time to do that. So they won't.

Riot will never say "We're balancing around pro play and ignoring the 99.99% of the rest of the population." The reasons you're looking for have to be vetted before being sent out, which is why most statements put out by Riot are so unbelievably disingenuous. Even if they gave you a reason, you shouldn't trust it.

FilDaFunk3 votes

I wouldn't mind reading an essay written by the balance team justifying their changes.

Nea1043 votes

Do you think they use some complex mathemathical simulations to find the better solution among a pletora of possible scenarios? :D

They don't care at all about balancing. Money. That's all.

Trinity Ace3 votes

Thank you for this thread mate. I would also like to add some more broken champions:

Ahri Evelynn Heimerdinger Kassadin Irelia Nami Leblanc Poppy

Riot should actually start nerfing champions instead of powercreeping everything. I mean Darius was completly fine, but everything else is just so broken.(especially adcs with their overpowered damage and movementspeed, that darius became automatically indirectly useless lol.)

Tokogawaruf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Grouping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEcm35lr,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-02T05:08:49.865+0000)

Good job riot, daddy Tencent has his hand so far up your ass that he's playing the fucking saxophone with your vocal cords.

My sides have left Orbit.

Ranmiaku2 votes

honestly im just fucking tired of this game and the dumbfuck balance team at riot, i've been completely one shot too many times now by broken champions that are feeding their asses off, and when im say 10-0, i dont think i should be able to get one shot by somebody whos 0-10, but riot games for you..

SociopathFriend1 votes

Where in any of this damn data, is it okay for around 20 champions to completely dominate the entire game?

And again fans whine that the natural evolution of a game only allows certain champions to be the best.

Want to see more than 20 champions? Stop treating ranked like the only game mode and play normals more.

oortoomeebreesuu1 votes

but when i play normals i literally only see the same champs because they are always banned in ranked so thats the only place people play them, baited and outsmarted myself

SociopathFriend1 votes

Odd, wonder what all the champions I've had in my last few normals...

Camille, Talon, Draven, Rakan, Eve Akali, Aatrox, Alistar, Yi, Kai'Sa

Graves, Zed, Riven, Taric, Lucian Janna, Twisted Fate, Kai'Sa, Kayne, Irelia

Yasuo, Xin Zhao, Lucian, Fiddlesticks, Jax Kindred, Lux, Veigar, Camille, Teemo

Warwick, Fizz, Veigar, Orn, Pyke Zed, Alistar, Kayne, Kog'Maw, Ezreal

Kayle, Vi, Riven, Jhin, Fiddlesticks Veigar, Jax, Yi, Ahri, Thresh

Lux, Ryze, Lucian, Kha'Zhix, Thresh Irelia, Gragas, Ashe, Pyke, Swain

Boy, look at all those repeats, especially when you consider the Fiddlesticks and Alistar are me.

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

Good job riot, daddy Tencent has his hand so far up your ass that he's playing the fucking saxophone with your vocal cords.

Pathetic.

It`s not pathetic, this is how business works. As an employer you have to listen what the owner says either you like it or not.

I`m curious why Marc 'Tryndamere' Merrill sold the company to Tencent when it had so much success and flow of money?! He got a lot of money from selling, but he could have waited 5-10 years and got the same money in the end without selling Riot directly to Tencent.

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