@RiotRepertoir, can we do something about TALON?

Wukong Airlines··74 votes·32,084 views

I know Talon is probably one of the least topics the balance team likes to talk about. But can we for the love of god fix his bugs?

  • His [Q] range after the rework is supposed to be 550, but in game it's 450 and that's a huge {nerf} to his role as an assassin with {reliable gap-closer}.

  • His short-ranged [crit-Q] applies in a longer range than it's supposed to be {it's supposed to crit at 170 range, but it applies at 180-190}, so the hope of chasing an enemy is lost many times.

  • His [E] has been bugged since his Rework release, it backflips him when used on certain terrains, and this patch specifically the [E] jump is getting more buggy even when using it properly.

The latter are the bugs that impact in-game experience and sometimes loses you a trade or a team-fight, and you know how critical one should be this season in order to win the game, such out of hand mistakes gives huge disadvantages for you and the team, which results in a higher chance for you to lose the game.


Since I've listed the bugs that make Talon feel awkward and harder to play, he still has few problems that if fixed would make his gameplay experience much more fun and reliable as assassin.
 
* Revert/rework his [W]. his old Rake [W]  had a 2 seconds slow that applied on both parts of the ability, was faster and wider, the new one is longer but easily dodged, is narrower which makes it easier to dodge, and applies a 1 second slow only on the returning blade + it deals more damage on the second part.   why don't we give him the slow on the first part of the [W]?

* Talon can't cast [Q] and [W] mid-air [E], but can cast [R] and when it's done it sends him in a backward motion even when you're about to land.   I would like to know why cant he cast at least his [Q] while jumping ? it makes absolute sense for him to be able to use it, doesnt he jump with the [Q] to begin with? 

* Give him an additional 50 range on his [Q] to be 600 range.

* and his major problem is not the damage, but where it all lies.  You've given him a rework that's supposed to be fun to play, but put most of his damage in his passive, and AGAIN, it's an Auto-attack reliant passive. You gave him raw damage, nothing more, not % hp damage, not even grievous wounds on his bleed.

You wanted Talon to become a single target assassin, but he used to be that with his old [E] damage amplifier. now he lost the [15% damage amplifier], and a lot of damage in his [W] and [Q, used to fully crit], and all was shifted to his new passive.


If you feel like fixing his bugs + giving hims some QoL buffs would make him overpowered, then he should definitely be reverted like Rengar and Leblanc.

121 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir36 votes

Hi. I'm running around between meetings and various other commitments atm so I can't gives this a ton of engagement right now, but it sounds like we're going to increase his Q range, which I guess got bugged several patches ago to be shorter than intended somehow.

Edge of Daybreak6 votes

Holy shit a rioter commented about talon it's been a while. Talon has a bug with his e where it will flip you in a completely wrong direction. Also Talon will heal from q if the target dies before he actually applies damage to it. Not pressing issue it's just a consistency thing. Also <3 Repertoir come to Talon threads more often we can ship cookies.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I don't think that's a bug (At least not with the examples I've seen of turrets) but due to how the ability works.

nm10101 votes

You try to jump one direction, the game instead makes you go a different direction. How can you possibly justify that as "not a bug"?

Allah Gold2 votes

Don't quote me on this or anything, but IIRC the bug has more to do with how pathing works in this game instead of E itself.

So yeah, if we're gonna be super nitpicky about it, it actually isn't a bug technically speaking, given how Riot has said they can't really do anything big to fix pathing.

nm10103 votes

You ignore normal pathing when using e (it counts as a movement command that ignores untapped terrain), so even if it was a terrain pathing issue that would still be a bug because Talon's e is supposed to completely ignore terrain pathing.

I have spent a fairly large amount of time trying to replicate this bug and the only thing I can plausibly put the blame on is the hit boxes for his e. They are terribly drawn and it looks like Talon frequently can actually get inside the hit box, thus causing the direction of the e to become completely random.

Edit: As I was just double checking this I actually found a new location this happens at.

https://i.gyazo.com/3979269736ba1d56464a77a31fcd1e44.png

Arrow shows the path I was running, X being where I was clicking. As you can see I can actually get much closer to the wall then the red outline would suggest, I'm fairly certain that is why I landed slightly north of my initial e cast instead of jumping over the wall.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Because how his E works might be based more on geometry rather than angle. It depends on how it determines how it goes over terrain.

nm10102 votes

It depends on how it determines how it goes over terrain.

You go from point A to point B unless that distance is too far, at which point you travel to point C instead which is the closest area to point B that is within range. The bug in question can literally make you go from point A to point A while also putting the wall on cd, there is no argument for that not being a bug.

ItsAbysmal2 votes

i would be beyond hyped if they fix his E, i cant count the number of times i jump the opposite direction to either die or lose time on my run back to lane, it depresses me as a talon main :(

Ifneth9 votes

Be careful when choosing the increase. Talon already has over a 52% winrate: giving him another buff could easily make him overpowered.

Setting his Q range to the 550 he was promised may not sound like much, but it would be huge because that’s almost every mage’s basic attack range. Right now, he must land his rake or step forward into danger to threaten an all-in during early laning. With a Q range of 550, he could do so by standing on a minion that any mage were about to last-hit with a basic attack. The big MR buff he recently received would only enable this zoning playstyle further.

Also, although mages can last-hit with their poke spells, doing so would drain their mana and hinder their ability to pressure Talon with poke or waveclear. Talon would meanwhile be free to poke, last-hit, or push with Rake. A Q range of 525 or less, on the other hand, would give his opponents some breathing room. Does this sound fair?

Viscâ17 votes

52% winrate is not huge if u think only OTP players playing this champion.

Midlane Kayra5 votes

Im a Talon OTP and i approve this.

BroLane10 votes

{quoted}

Be careful when choosing the increase. Talon already has over a 52% winrate: giving him another buff could easily make him overpowered.

Setting his Q range to the 550 he was promised may not sound like much, but it would be huge because that’s almost every mage’s basic attack range. Right now, he must land his rake or step forward into danger to threaten an all-in during early laning. With a Q range of 550, he could do so by standing on a minion that any mage were about to last-hit with a basic attack. The big MR buff he recently received would only enable this zoning playstyle further.

Also, although mages can last-hit with their poke spells, doing so would drain their mana and hinder their ability to pressure Talon with poke or waveclear. Talon would meanwhile be free to poke, last-hit, or push with Rake. A Q range of 525 or less, on the other hand, would give his opponents some breathing room. Does this sound fair?

I'd rather have bug-fixes followed by nerfs than to leave him in his current state.

Midlane Kayra9 votes

%52 winrate with %2 play-rate

So this means only OTPs play talon, so its not that much.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

What's A.Sol's win/playrate?

Midlane Kayra2 votes

%56 Win/ %2 playrate

AmazoX2 votes

{quoted}

Hi. I'm running around between meetings and various other commitments atm so I can't gives this a ton of engagement right now, but it sounds like we're going to increase his Q range, which I guess got bugged several patches ago to be shorter than intended somehow.

WHAT THE FUCK. Insane bug unnoticed got several patches.

forist2 votes

Hey, nice to see a rioter responding to a thread about talon. I'm not gonna ask you for buffs or anything like that, but could you please look into all of the bugs that have been in talon's kit since the rework a year ago. Bugs like:

  • his q range being shorter than intended.
  • his e backfiring and causing you to back-flip randomly when targeting a wall or turret.
  • his melee q not properly resetting his auto-attack animation and locking talon in place while unable to auto attack for a whole 1.5 seconds (this usually happens to me when killing jungle camps)
  • his melee q often is activating outside the indicated range when chasing an enemy, resulting in the loss of the q dash mechanic.

I currently play almost solely talon at low diamond elo and I genuinely think that fixing these bugs would go a long way towards making the champ more enjoyable for players at all levels.

kargish4 votes

I just want my rake to be able to kill the caster minions, they always survive with 10 hp :(

Viscâ4 votes

Hey RiotRepertoir,im playing Talon for 5 years i love old Talon and New Talon they are good(i still prefer old Talon) but on new Talon he needs something we should use Q while jumping and Melee Q(170range) should a blink think old Talon E because of Flash+Melee Q and u can't auto so u can't proc your passive so enemy escape it is unfair and tilting..Please decrease W delay rank by rank like Lvl1 Rake - 0.75 Lvl 2 0.70,60,50,40

Also his base movement speed too slow 335 for an AD Assasin who is eating tons of speels in laning phase so he needs 345-350 base MS we have to get this buff on Talon because we don't have StormRaider anymore so we need more speed please.

Yamikaze7 votes

{quoted}

Hi. I'm running around between meetings and various other commitments atm so I can't gives this a ton of engagement right now, but it sounds like we're going to increase his Q range, which I guess got bugged several patches ago to be shorter than intended somehow.

Repertoir, as a challenger talon otp, I just want to mention: Talon's already in a very good spot right now. Across euw, na, and kr, there are 3 challenger talon top players and 1 talon mid player. While I strongly agree that the q range bugs (both ranged and melee) along with the backflip bug should be fixed, please be very careful not to over-buff him. Due to the nature of his kit, Talon is one of the hardest macro champs to play in the game - to the point where even dedicated one tricks will often play him very sub-optimally. If he is buffed to the point where sub optimal becomes strong, then he will be completely broken in the hands of more competent players.

Further, please keep in mind that Talon's high e mobility should be balanced out with a slightly lower q range, making the low q range not as weak as people may believe. An example: If a good Talon player wants to engage on an enemy laner, he will simply walk out of lane and e back in to close the gap. A bad Talon player will attempt to walk up to q, getting kited and poked out. Low q range rewards good Talon players and punishes the bad players.

ZJD12328 votes

Easily the worst late game assassin. He has to

  1. some how get to his target with a 400 range gap closer in the middle of a 5v5 deathball
  2. hit the enemy ADC with 3 different spell hits
  3. THEN land an auto attack on the ADC to actually proc the 3 stack into a bleed.
  4. Wait 2 seconds for the bleed to do its damage
  5. if he used his ult to either do 1. or do 2. then hes probably dead already at this point from ADC right clicks+ team finishing him off

His best bet is hoping the teamfight takes place in a location where he can flank with his E and flip over really close to the back line. I also dont understand why they gutted his W so hard. Rake was never a toxic ability, infact it was one of the least toxic abilities when you talk about assassins. 260+1.2 ratio is not that much and it had to go out and then come back in with a 10 sec cooldown. Not sure how thats toxic to the point where they had to make it impossible to land. Look at jarvan he can just press Q and instantaneously deal that same exact damage on a 6 sec cooldown with 30% armor pen. AD jarvan is probably just a better talon.

Wukong Airlines21 votes

What I dislike about the new Passive-R is that his [R] is mostly used to stack his Wounds which ends up losing invisibility trying to activate the passive. The old Talon used his R mainly to clean the kill and escape at the same time, was more fun and better combo-landing wise.

Andevar6 votes

Maybe not the worst late game Assassin, but Talon does fall off very hard. The only thing he really contributes late game is his wave clear, which is really good due to his mobility. But outside of that, his team fighting usually consists of suicide charging the ADC in the hopes that your full burst kills him.

But then again, that's only if you failed to close the game out early.

Wukong Airlines6 votes

He falls off very hard because he lost his [W] speed and damage, he lost his old [E] amplifier and old 100% [Q] crit. and because most of his damage is a stack-and-activate mechanic.

Arakadia3 votes

He's the worst late game assassin but one of the best early game asssassins in terms of threat potential.

SithesisLord3 votes

Also responsible for 25% of first bloods.

SmashinBob2 votes
  1. if he used his ult to either do 1. or do 2. then hes probably dead already at this point from ADC right clicks+ team finishing him off

If you engaged first into a teamfight to kill an adc, then you are playing assasins wrong. And talon is strong early to mid game, during skirmishes and ganks.

iBob9 votes

I don't play Talon much, but QoL for under rated assassins is something I can get behind

Wukong Airlines4 votes

He could become more than press [E] and wait to land to possibly kill someone.

The execution of his combo could become more interesting by fixing and adding more to his [E]

saltran1 votes

What about giving him a bit more dmg to the next aa/Q he does after using E? Just an idea, I don't play Talon.

Shaydrox4 votes

He honestly doesn't need more damage. If anything he'll just become broken without fixing his actual issues. Bugfixes need to happen, and if these end up making him too strong he can get a slight nerf for all I care (coming from Talon onetrick)

Telosen3 votes

He needs more damage late game. HIs damage early and midgame is fine. His full combo with full build does about 3000 damage exactly, including Ignite. If the ADC has tabi and GA, that damage is literally reduced to 1400+ignite, so 1950 give or take some. It's not close to being enough to kill an ADC if the ADC uses heal/lifesteal/fleet footwork or has any peel at all. Other assassins simply do not have this issue. Full build Fizz, Katarina, Zed, Rengar, Wukong, will ALL delete you if you're out of position, even if you have some shielding to save you.

All Assassins fall off, and they need to end games quickly, but I think Talon may have the worst late game of them all because his combo is hard to do when people are bodyblocking and prepared for you, and then the reward for pulling the combo off is only 1950 damage when the ADC has 2000 health + heal and shields/heals/peel/exhausts...

Gear5Luffy9 votes

600 range on Q is a bit much

Telosen9 votes

The patch notes when he was reworked said it would be 550. It never was. Most point click dashes are 500-600 range. Xin's is 650. Irelia's is 625. Jax's is 700. Wukong's is 625. Why is Talon's 450????

Raw Booty Hole1 votes

Wukong is 650, Irelia is 650, the other 2 are correct

Telosen6 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/340440df5670e9a4aad79d78b7cbfb61.png

https://i.gyazo.com/f81ba63836d7d5ca61f9ace36eb911ec.png

these are the ranges from the wiki. The wiki says Wukong and Irelias are both 625.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku8 votes

His [E] has been bugged since his Rework release, it backflips him when used on certain terrains, and this patch specifically the [E] jump is getting more buggy even when using it properly.

Yeah, how this sh*t still up since a f**KING entire year ?

SweedishGunner6 votes

Yeah he does feel clunky to play but despite all this he's always doing alright statistically.

JustaNewb6 votes

Only one question. How does one jump while already jumping?

Wukong Airlines7 votes

We give it a "Landing-strike" animation.

ChaosThief5 votes

Video games have had double jump for a long time, get with the program, smh.

/s

Raw Booty Hole5 votes

What if Talon's bleed caused grievous wounds for it's duration?

Telosen3 votes

It needs to. his full combo late game when reduced by armor from Tabi/GA is about 1950. IF the ADC has lifesteal/fleetfootwork/heal or ANY shields/heals/peels they will survive while Talon is killed immediately by focus fire. He needs late game scaling that ramps up with ranks in SOMETHING. His early game damage is fine. He just needs to not fall off.

Hamentasch4 votes

As a Talon main, I am glad to hear his Q is being fixed/buffed. However, if his winrate does get too high, I implore you to revert (or partially revert) the +7 MR buff he got a while back. That change was so forced/unnatural. Assassins should have higher risk/reward. Do not touch his damage.

remakoro1 votes

Give him an additional 50 range on his [Q] to be 600 range.

Are you fucking high? How much do you think 600 range is?

Mezo3 votes

Akali R 700 Range & 3 charges also takedowns reset 1 charge , she had better stealth than talon and lower cooldowns .. ah forgot about her sustain in lane . so akali is better version than talon + easier, and you complaining about 600 range on Q?

remakoro2 votes

Thats her ult, it has less dmg, it cant crit, it has moderate cd for charges. While his q just has small cd.

Better stealth is a questionable thing.

AAAAAAND She is ap. So she isnt really even in the same category as him. Thats like saying that lux is better jhin.

Automated Riven5 votes

In order for talons q to crit it has to be melee range. that has nothing to do with the range aspect.

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