"Wtf Rito why are Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana and Jinx picked every game?" "Nerf them!" - Gameplay and Balance Board now
The good old cycle. Maybe we should buff these poor lane bullies (
) so that there is a chance to help keep these hyper scaling late game carries in check so that they don't get a free lane and then ultimately stomping the game.
OperationDEEZ123 votes"Wtf Rito why are Jinx, Jinx, Jinx, and Jinx picked every game?" "Nerf them!"
Fixed it for you, no charge.
Terff34 votesI see vayne way more than jinx atm...
Remlap12237 votesIt's the cycle of whines.
Troy2426212 votesFixed it for you, no charge.
"Wtf Rito why are Jinx, Vayne, Jinx, and Vayne? picked every game?" "Nerf them!"
Upgraded to our premium package, no charge.
Matezoide22 votesMeanwhile Twitch is still bullied.
A Miss Fortune12 votesTwitch in my opinion needs buffs before any other ADC in the game. People say his passive is good but people don't realize it, however last time I checked Vayne does more than 235 true damage over 6 seconds, if she applies 6 auto attacks on you at level 16+.
kile14710 votesTwitch's problem is that his passive stacks true damage on multiple targets that also gives him a mini rend based on stacks which can do a ton of damage in the ideal case. If you compare his passive to Vayne's true damage on a single target it seems pretty sad, but he can theoretically get 6 stacks of his passive on an entire team from very long range, and keep it refreshed, allowing him to be dealing 180 true damage/sec passively on enemy champions. This is a case of a move having too much potential power and too little realistic power. Most Vayne's can realistically proc her true damage 2-3 times in a fight without too much hassle which would probably end up somewhere around the 800-900 true damage range late game. Twitch can potentially deal 1080 true damage over the course of a fight from a lot further range with more safety, but realistically he's lucky if he deals even 1/2 of that damage.
I would definitely say that Vayne's true damage proc is stronger in most cases, but Twitch can potentially deal a lot more damage at far longer range.
A Miss Fortune4 votesThe thing is that Twitch needs to auto attack them all, at I believe level 16, 6 times in a row. He potentially can, but It's a once in a million chance for him to actually do 1,000+ true damage altogether. I think It's what gimps his passive from ever becoming truly strong. But even early game, he might as well not even have a passive. It doesn't even do damage, it just stops their health regen.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesIt actually stacks up quite nicely to do some mean poke if he can get autos off on the enemy in consistent trades, the problem is that most enemies won't let him do this without retaliation.
Partholonian1 votesWhich is the same as Teemo, who isn't even taken seriously as a potential marksman anymore. All ins are too common and strong for someone who depends on trading with DoTs to be effective.
Partholonian1 votesThat's what his ult and W are for. And Runaans.
It's unrealistic to have max stacks on the whole team, but having at least a few stacks on most people and max stacks on 1-2 isn't that unrealistic, if he lives long enough to apply it.
...and then you realize that does about as much as 2 silver bolt procs.
2ManyJons1 votesBut that's the issue. All of his Damage is based around his passive.
I love more than anything in the world, he's my favorite champ. Laning phase is horrible with him, every time, because he just lacks so much. You can't waste time poking the enemy ADC to build stacks or you lose farm. You can use your W to keep an unnoticeable poke on them, but you'll go oom. GOD FORBID their jungler comes to gank, cause you have no escape other than flash, and will not be able to damage them enough to deter them.
I remember hearing a while back that they nerfed his Q because it made him too safe with the damage his passive was dealing. His Q is worthless unless you're using it to engage. It runs off the same issues that Miss Fortune champs are dealing with against Strut, as long as a caster minion is poking you, you cannot go invisible for 6 seconds. Meaning you can't get the MS boost or the AS boost. You pretty much just spent your 60 mana for nothing.
Twitch's secondary role is an assassin and I don't understand how. His burst damage is just garbage. To get this full bang for his kit fast, you have to have your ult and Q activated, AA 4 times, hit your W for the other two stacks, and use his E. After that you're on cooldown and open for retaliation. Heck, Vayne is a better assassin by FAR, with more reliable stealth and damage output.
I dunno, I'd just really like to see my favorite champ become a good pic again and not just another "Why did you pick Twitch? Report for intentional feeding! GG!" comment in champ select.
RogueWill1 votes3 procs of Vayne's passive generally means 3 kills since even tanks will die in 2 procs tops.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesIs she 6 items and everyone else 3?
kile14710 votesWell then your problem with vayne isn't her true damage since even on a very tanky target 2 procs of her silver bolts would be less than 800 damage. That would mean she dealt 3200 physical damage past her target's armor, about 550 physical damage per hit on average, which is pretty far fetched even for a fed adc going against a tank. Just doing some basic math with an adc having 400 AD, 50% crit, and IE, that adc would only deal 450 damage/hit on average assuming after all reductions the target has 100 armor (~200 armor before reductions).
HighKingOfSkyrim6 votesat least someone calculates shit before spaming the board
Onegarion1 votesI think a big buff that needs to happen for twitch is simply lowering his activation time on Q when being attacked would change a lot. I mean 6 seconds is completely too long in this game. I think the 2secs (correct me if I'm wrong) was too short, but now its too long. So lets change it to 4 secs for at least a test to see if he becomes better.
A Miss Fortune1 votesI don't think that's his problem, his Q is used to Ambush people not necessarily escape. It's kind of how people should use his Q, though it can work as an escape, it shouldn't be the primary focus. His main problem is that aside from his ultimate which comes on a fairly long cooldown, nothing is exceptionally strong in his kit.
His passive at level 16, at max stacks, at the max duration does like 235 damage, It's true damage but early - mid game it oddesn't even do damage, it just lowers their health regen or stops their health regen. It's pretty pathetic when a level 1 Morgana support has more base health regen than Twitch's passive has in damage.
His W just applies 2 stacks of his passive, which again is already weak.
His E is just a watered down Kalista Rend and again relies on his already weak passive.
His ultimate is actually pretty good, but it can be pretty useless since it can do significantly less damage as you hit people behind the person you initially target.
None of Twitch's abilities are really that strong alone, and all of them pretty much revolve around his passive which is extremely bad. Sure some Twitch players may be able to do well with him, but coming from a person who mains Miss Fortune, I don't see any strengths that Twitch has that any other ADC can't do better. Even Miss Fortune, her ultimate does so much more damage and can hit the back line so much more easily.
Personwithhat19 votesDraven is a hyper carry. He doesn't need a buff.
Caitlyn is hell to lane against, she outranges you in everything.
Lucian, I guess he might needa little on. MF needs a shit ton.
Other than that I'm 100% sure caitlyn and draven aren't "poor lane bullies"
MohawkBird3 votes[deleted]
Personwithhat9 votesDraven is in a very special position.
He is heavily farm reliant, and even without kills can pack a substantial amount of damage.
He shreds and does an insane amount of damage late game, just he lacks utility that other ADC's can have (EX: sivir team speed-up, Ashe slow + stun)
Only has a mild interrupt/slow/knockback and some self-speed ups.
However, he DEFENITELY shouldn't be buffed.
Laning against him is like playing versus a nuclear bomb that's 2 kills away from being enabled.
IF he gets even mildly ahead in early game, there's about a 90% chance you lose.
I can go full-tank shyvanna, nautilus, anything, he'll kill me in 2 seconds and then get the others too.
He falls off late game, but that doesn't matter if he was ahead cause by then most of your towers are gone and you're all very, very, behind while he's very, very, ahead on CS.
TL;DR
Buffing draven for reasons of "poor lane bully" is a insanely stupid idea. That's his BEST part of the game.
Buffing him utility/late-game wise might be a good idea, but he doesn't really need it.
Some champs are good early-mid. Some are good late. Draven is the former.....
Come on, can you honestly say that you haven't lost a match to a snowballing draven? Not even once?
Do you remember the pain of fighting him? XD
Squarefighter1 votesAlso, Draven doesn't exactly fall off late game. This is not me whining about him about him at all I personally think he's pretty balanced. Draven is a really high powered marksman all game as long as he catches his axes. The axe catching makes him probably the easiest adc to exploit tho because it forces him to move to a highly telegraphed spot if he wants to leep his power which means his high power is capped by high reward.
Honestly late game he has the potential to be an absolute god with a (potentially) endlessly refreshing 85% total AD, 40% attack speed, and 20% move speed buff.
Personwithhat1 votesYes, I agree.
The reason that people think he falls off, is that his early-mid game is SO much more OP that they think his late game is "worse". XD
Even late game his damage is !@#$ insane. It's just his UTILITY that falls off, 20%MS isn't that much..... XD
PL551 votesDraven isn't just early game damage, he can dish out a crazy amount of damage late game IF you can catch his axes in teamfights.
metaworldpeace101 votesDraven is a hyper carry. He doesn't need a buff.
Caitlyn is hell to lane against, she outranges you in everything.
Lucian, I guess he might needa little on. MF needs a shit ton.
Other than that I'm 100% sure caitlyn and draven aren't "poor lane bullies"
Yeah, I understand why Draven would be an issue if buffed, but my point of the post was to show the community the full cycle of nerfs/buffs and how it affects the game. Currently, if you pick Caitlyn into a Jinx/Vayne/Trist, you should naturally counter them due to your strong early game, but in this current meta, jinx/vayne/trist all start to outscale Caitlyn past level 6. The "early game counter pick" just doesn't really exist anymore. If these hyper carries start to scale at level 6.. there is a big issue and if this type of play continues, there is never a point to pick a Caitlyn, when you can easily farm your way to level 6 and outscale. How many times have you been all inned by a Jinx lane and give a kill to her? Say goodbye to any early game advantage and hello late game.
Personwithhat2 votesEgh, I feel that the majority of ADC's are balanced.
Some exceptions. Draven is a bitch, you fear of doing anything wrong cause if you do BOOM lane lost, early-mid-game lost, GG.
Vayne is another one of those.
I just tried out vayne. I don't even play her. I played her jungle.
The sheer amount of damage and sustain she has is !@#$ insane.
I was behind by 4 kills, and 60 CS. (compared to the rest of my team average.) The weakest enemy had 5 more kills than me.
I went 1 v 3 and won, their ADC, their support, and their Tank.
Honestly WTF her damage is INSAAAAAAAAAAAANE.
Counterplay? WHAT counterplay? She just SHOOTS you. Stun + 3AA = kill.
Jinx, however, can be countered. The key here is that she doesn't have the same level of sustain, since she had to focus AD, while Vayne goes AS and kills people......
EX: Vayne gets 2+ lifesteal items. Jinx gets 1 usually.
I find jinxes , even late game, fine enough to kill as long as you get to her. Remember, her CC isn't that good.
I feel that Jinx late game isn't that good...typically just tower-busting. Trist , to me at least, falls off late-game as well.
I dunno, just get close to them and they're dead. Caitlyn still pretty much counters them, assuming equal peel, Caitlyn can outkite them (sort-of) and about 1-shot them with her Ult XD
ADC's are fine-ish now. IT's junglers that need the real rework.
Dengeden1 votesMF just got buffed?
metaworldpeace105 votesI agree that Twitch needs buffs badly, but I'm sick of the constant back and forth between lane bullies and hyper carries. Now that the lane bullies have generally been nerfed, hyper carries are back and they don't really have to pay anything for their god-mode late game. Just look at Vayne and Jinx as examples.
Trebbi4 votesIsnt draven kinda a hypercarry?
Erockandroll2 votesIsnt draven kinda a hypercarry?
He's more mid game as his Q scaling damage increases with level. He scales quickly up until level 9, Give or take.
AFK Push2 votesIsnt draven kinda a hypercarry?
HIs late game axes are devastating on crit, you nearly one shot squishies. He just isn't as good as the hyper carries listed cause the others are much better splitpushers, better tank busters, have self peel and escapes. All draven has is his damage.
Yes, I know his E is somewhat of a self peel, but it just isn't as good as compared to other self peels. Nor is it as good as a straight up dash/escape imo.
Davy Crockett2 votesJust played a game as Jinx and I picked into a MF/Annie lane. The greatest factor in that lane was the best support I have ever had (Taric) and it was just a roflstomp from there. MF was saying that she counters Jinx. lol
Edit: I played jinx before it was cool XD
LaowPing4 votesShe does counter Jinx, but botlane is decided by the supports. Without a support that's scarier than your Taric, it doesn't matter who the ADC is.
Davy Crockett2 votesBot lane really is decided by the supports. Then again, most Vayne players tend to say that the support is worthless when theyre the ones that made them relevant and able to 1v3 bot and jungle. Other than that, the supports are the unsung heroes
Gangplank Main2 votesMFW you want draven and cait to be buffed, when those two are literally the biggest lane bullies for adc's. Especially draven. (also kog maw is better as a mid laner :/...)
Dremiist2 votes"Wtf Rito why are Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana and Jinx picked every game?" "Nerf them!" - Gameplay and Balance Board now
The good old cycle. Maybe we should buff these poor lane bullies (
vayne get burried into the ground against ezreal caitlyn kalista jinx ashe and out trade by draven and support like annie janna leona, easier to catch in team fights due to her range the lack of spell shield or movement speed boosting your team at catching up the heavy lane bullies ,does not have a free flash,jump,1200 range on Q or AoE knock back with her ultimate,the only thing she exceed against is armor and that's pretty much it and if she land stun she might get a kill on those long range harasser like ezreal caitlyn ashe jinx with Q turned on and tristana late game
get red trinket and leave vayne alone. ADC do fine against her when played properly and in case you didn't know vayne require mechanics. btw vayne is classified as an assassin in case you didn't know so she should be doing burst damage but she does not the main reason they classified her as an assasin is due to her stealth "period" get a red trinket.
do you know how long it took me to learn how to play vayne decently? you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, it take less skill to outplay vayne with caitlyn then it takes vayne player to catch up on caitlyn , if you knew how to orb walk you'd probably kill that vayne with less to no effort vayne players are forced to learn it you can't stand there and auto attack them to death then E out and you don't have traps or a gigantic ass range on your ultimate doing AoE damage,auto locking, stunning you or knocking back and aoe %health damage: (cait,ezreal,ashe,tristana,jinx) and stunning people aren't as easy as it seems unless you're playing in bronzeeeeee or silverrrrrrr.
if you're complaining about vayne maybe you shouldn't be playing ADC, and the only reason I would consider banning vayne is because i don't want my team to stupidly feed her or pick her and FAIL HARD, usually because my bottom lane have a terrible SUPPORT/ADC synergy and lack of CC or harass in both situations and no counter pick due to lack of knowledge or experience she literally have the weakest lane synergy so i'd consider jungling which isn't recommended or top like quinn, twitch come 2nd but his nasty long ass AoE ult turn him from worst ADC to Super Hyper carry, not even kalista with runaan hurricane can match that. twitch have stealth and is classified as an assassin.so imagine if twitch had runaan,botrk,sated devourer during his ultimate he'd be wiping an entire team inside 5 second. It's usually the experienced player that picks vayne, noobs will end up feeding.
vayne is an assassin ofc she's going to be stronger 1v1 would you solo talon,leblanc,zed? i don't think anyone would. also let's not forget that vayne does not have AoE damage she cannot push lane like sivir ashe cait forcing her to CS at tower and heavily punishable when she try to grab a CS or 2 don't forget she got nerfed a tons of time, back then i considered vayne as an assassin because she was a monster mid to late game had NASTY MOVEMENT SPEED on her passive and ultimate and 10 additional base movement speed, higher base damage on E and 75% on Q but that did not stop her to lose game season 1 in the pro scene because they knew her flaws.
anyone who doesn't know how to lane bully counter picking hyper carry will end up losing their advantage.
and yes sated devourer need a nerf this item have ridiculous damage "60x2 magic damage" amplify her true damage by a third 1/3 and botrk passive by 2.
you should see sated devourer on yi or kayle that's something to cry about.
Ormylar1 votesGive MF her Grievous Wounds back. Also give her ad scaling on her ult back too.
ChaosThief6 votesIt still has an AD scaling...
MohawkBird4 votes[deleted]
ElJanitorFrank1 votes1000 + 384% AD just ain't enough damage these days, huh?
Sure, they have to be in the ult the entire time, I'll give you that, but... if they aren't in the ult, your ultimate is zoning them. And zoning is extremely useful in the hands of a good player. You're either decimating their team or controlling their team, either way it's good for an ultimate.
MohawkBird1 votes[deleted]
ElJanitorFrank1 votesNot if they're team fighting and your tanks know how to peel. Then that assassin who just went on you is in the middle of 5 people.
MohawkBird1 votes[deleted]
ElJanitorFrank1 votesRight. Above statement. You can just dive completely in the middle of a team just to kill one person, tanks with decent peel and skill will just leave YOU a sitting duck that is now in a pond of piranhas.
Lugg1 votesThe four lane "bullies" you named are all well balanced right now. The other ADCs need their early games nerfed heavily so that they are OBVIOUSLY weaker than them for the first 20 minutes of the game. This plays into the high risk/high reward kit that hyper carries are supposed to have. You risk getting shut down in lane for the chance to dominate later.
metaworldpeace102 votesThe four lane "bullies" you named are all well balanced right now. The other ADCs need their early games nerfed heavily so that they are OBVIOUSLY weaker than them for the first 20 minutes of the game. This plays into the high risk/high reward kit that hyper carries are supposed to have. You risk getting shut down in lane for the chance to dominate later.
I dunno about Lucian man, hes pretty bad. Like, 45% WR across all elos, play rate is declining patch by patch, hes not in a good spot at all. I do agree though that these hyper carries need some type of mitigation early game. Its unfair to be able to play a champion like Vayne/Trist/Jinx and have a pretty moderately easy early game for a god like late game, instead of playing a champion like Caitlyn who has about as safe as a laning phase as Jinx, but Jinx already outscales her at level 6.
The One Eye King1 votesVayne and jinx are currently the best solo q carries. why? because if they get snowballed your team needs to focus them and shut them down.
keywords: teamwork..... and solo q..... let that sink in.
Troll for Trump1 votesAhem.
You forgot the most poorest lane bully of them all
;_;
CrazedPorcupine1 votesThe problem isn't lane bullies themselves, its the fact that the hypercarries of League also have fantastic early games that means they win lanes without issues.
