this AP circlejerk is getting ridiculous

Moody P·Nov 5, 2018·14 votes·2,156 views

let me sum it up for you briefly and politely

AP is not a weak stat and comparing AP to AD is retarded
AP items fill the needs of every champion who could possibly need them
Mages have the strongest kits in the game and for a long time the best items, too; the score is just being evened out on the items front.
Mages are doing just fine right now
AP bruisers are both a) not lacking in itemization and b) a stupid idea.
AP bruisers don't have the heavily tanky items that AD bruisers do because every intended AP bruiser has great innate survival tools that, unlike AD bruisers, often scale with their damage stat and not their health stat.

Now that you've been corrected, it's time for AP bandwagoners to cease being publicly and vocally wrong. Feel free to ask for elaboration on any point and I'll gladly provide. =]

33 Comments

meowwow7Nov 5, 20186 votes

i'm tired of people comparing ap items to ad items when an ap champ's has skills that ads don't have, but you don't see anybody comparing that

boricCentaur1Nov 5, 20185 votes

I agree there is way to many people that think ap needs the same items as ad and the most annoying case of this is people asking for a ap item 3026 when they already have item 3157 that is better in almost every way. But I will say itemization as a whole suck right now.

deadlychuckNov 5, 20182 votes

No AP doesn't need the same items as AD. AD needs to stop receiving the same items as AP, and stop having champions designed around using AD like AP.

boricCentaur1Nov 5, 20183 votes

This makes no sense to me like I said ap doesn't need the same items and the only case of ad getting a ap like item was item 3814 but only passive wise. Champions designed around using ad like ap that makes no sense do you want every ad champion to be auto based and there is no ad mages.

deadlychuckNov 5, 20181 votes

Don't get me wrong, for the most part there's no 1:1 copies, but they often take 1 mechanic from an AP item and give it to an AD item which then also has another mechanic which wasn't part of the AP items.

item 3813 fills the same function as https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/6f/Will_of_the_Ancients_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20171223021758 but also gives the burst flattening passive .

^ Why do they remove these icons from the boards anyway? Like sometimes people want to reference them, but they make it harder by removing them from the sprite sheets. <shrug>

item 3026 fills the same role as item 3157

There's other aspects which aren't necessarily item effects, but still fill the role of aspects of design that AP tend to have, like AD having access to 2-3 methods of increasing their AoE damage, item 3087 item 3085 item 3074 ... now item 3077 did exist, well since I can remember, but it didn't start building up to a full game item until more recent history. Rather it acted as a laning phase investment, similar to item 1083

There's more, but I think this illustrates the point. It's not necessarily that the itemization has single handedly accomplished this, but rather anything that an AP champion is capable of doing, so too is an AD champion. But conversely, not every AD feat is possible for AP champions. AP isn't unique anymore, but AD still has some unique aspects about it.

Again, they could expand the role of AP and make it equally capable of doing what AD does, to make neither of them unique. However, as it pertains to the design of an RPG game, it makes more sense to clearly define the role of these stats separately, rather than expanding them both to be the same just different colors. "Do you deal red damage or do you deal purple damage?" (Haha, just thought that if this were the case, color blind mode would be all the more important)

D357R0Y3RNov 5, 20185 votes

and then you remember that WOTA used to give spellvamp after 2000 gold while death dance gives spellvamp after 3600 gold

You also remember that deathdance rush is garbage and WOTA rush made the game ridiculous when it used to be viable

AlzonNov 5, 20182 votes

item 3145 built into WotA and gave spellvamp...

deadlychuckNov 5, 20182 votes

And then you remember that deathdance gives functionally spell vamp, lifesteal, and burst mitigation for 3600g, not just spell vamp.

You also remember that, for most whom it may concern, sustain via abilities is great and all, but mana is still a resource for most casting champions which significantly limited the effectiveness of WotA rushing.

D357R0Y3RNov 5, 20182 votes

it doesn't matter what it gives

what is important is that it can't be rushed and make you autowin lane like WOTA used to do

clear? nice

deadlychuckNov 6, 20181 votes

You have a very different memory of the viability of WotA.

But who knows, maybe the only part of WotA you remember was it's use by swain and vlad.

Step Sis LuxNov 5, 20183 votes

ap circlejerk? Any word on this board against AD is immediately downvoted, and almost everything about AP is downvoted

Moody PNov 5, 20186 votes

That's a pretty bold lie, you think it'll pay off for you?

Step Sis LuxNov 5, 20182 votes

i dont care what u say, u can check board by yourself

Moody PNov 5, 20185 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Er530JjU-full-ad-high-chance-of-winning-full-ap-autolose

really makes me think

deadlychuckNov 5, 20182 votes

But it's not wrong.

It's just that those kind of statistics aren't available, but experience is pretty clear cut.

Sharpest glassesNov 5, 20183 votes

i dont care what u say, u can check board by yourself and almost everything about AP is downvoted

He proved you were wrong.

Step Sis LuxNov 5, 20181 votes

he gave ONE thing lol

Edge of DaybreakNov 5, 20183 votes

Do you seriously expect him to go post multiple sources to disprove a blatant lie? I don't need multiple sources for someone to prove ice is cold. If anything he gave you one of the best examples of what the ap vs ad actually looks like here.

Step Sis LuxNov 5, 20182 votes

He said "CIRCLEJERK" so i expected more than 1

deadlychuckNov 5, 20181 votes

What are you talking about? The claim of the post he linked appears to be correct, and it having upvotes doesn't disprove what I said or necessarily support the idea of it being a "circlejerk".

The post claimed that majority AP on a team is a liability, while majority AD on a team is at least not a significant liability.

Based on experience, and simply looking at the game's design, the claim of the post he links appears to be true. However, we don't have statistics on "the win rate of these champions relative to what team they have". But we do see a over representation of AD on most teams, top, jungle, and bot generally preferring AD champions, and mid being favored to be AP, but likely pess than the other mentioned positions being favored towards AD. Support is mostly AP, but has had their itemization isolated from other AP users.

Sharpest glassesNov 5, 20182 votes

The post claimed that majority AP on a team is a liability, while majority AD on a team is at least not a significant liability. The claim of the post he linked appears to be correct,

So the board say you have "high chance" to win a full AD comp... and you say this is correct ?? lmao. you clearly have game understanding issue if you think he's right.

And he even say AD items need nerf... when AP items are so strong atm, its a joke.

deadlychuckNov 6, 20181 votes

No, I laid out my case for why it is likely that an AD comp would win. The one word explanation is versatility.

I say it's correct, not because "the board say", but from numerous games playing on both sides of a 4-5/5 AP vs 4-5/5 AD. The results are overwhelmingly in favor of the AD composition. They tend to get ahead earlier, recover easier when they don't, and maintain whatever lead or recovery into the late game.

The only cases that I've experienced where the AD team loses is when the AD team gets completely shut out and loses EVERY position. Which speaks far more to the skill disparity than the degree of champion, let alone specifically stat, balance.

I don't just go off of what other people that I already agree with say, maybe you do which is why you'd assume that I do, I have enough experience, knowledge, and theory crafting with the game to run through claims in my head and check their validity. But again, unfortunately there isn't data that appears to be tracked, or at least isn't data that is easily available, to consider such statistics. Though this is likely due to the fact that there are 432,295,143 team combinations, counting each champion only once... That's alota data!

Are they wrong? Maybe. Am I wrong? Maybe. Is there data to confirm or deny a claim or counter argument? No. Conclusion, different people will have different opinions on this based on their experiences in the game and their biases that shape their recollection of those experiences.

Although I am curious, how every time I come on the boards over the past... well since the boards replaced the forums. If I bring up how "much better AD itemization is than AP itemization", people always say that "AP items are stronger than AD items right now". Yet, while I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with the patch notes since around mid season, very rarely have I seen AP itemization changes which can be said to be objectively a buff, but frequently they come out with new AD items which attempt to 1 up the existing itemization.

Malix FarwinNov 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAivEiA7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-05T01:02:51.578+0000)

That's a pretty bold lie, you think it'll pay off for you?

TEchnically not a lie because the person who said that just got instantly downvoted.

ZephyrDrakeNov 5, 20183 votes

I agree with you except in the AP bruiser part. Sorry but AP bruisers do not have good itemization and they do not have better survival tools than their AD counterparts

Moody PNov 5, 20182 votes

Yes they do on both parts

Itemizing; every AP bruiser has items that give them damage and durability. Liandry's, Rylai's, Zhonya's, Abyssal for the ones that can use it, Banshee's otherwise. Etc. AP bruisers aren't a struggling class especially if you want to consider "battle mages" as AP bruisers like Swain and Vlad and the new Viktor build.

Survival; Viktor and Rumble have permashields, Swain has sustain, Vlad has sustain, Lissandra has her ult and an ass-load of CC, Ryze is Ryze, Mordekaiser has his shield AND a heal. The only battle mage who doesn't have a survival tool is Karthus and that's because he's got a death passive that lets him spam spells with no interruption.

Most AD bruisers have healing that's far more conditional than Swain/Vlad or scales with % missing HP which makes them easy to burst when their sustain is strongest. The ones with shields tend to have it on higher cooldowns and only use it once or twice in a fight. Therefore, they get to have better up front stats because their kit's survival tools come up short in comparison.

Also, APs all have the advantage of being ranged or having ranged attacks, and none of them bar Lissandra needs to get into the thickest part of the fight to do their thing.

ZephyrDrakeNov 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAivEiA7,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-11-05T12:01:32.121+0000)

Yes they do on both parts

Itemizing; every AP bruiser has items that give them damage and durability. Liandry's, Rylai's, Zhonya's, Abyssal for the ones that can use it, Banshee's otherwise. Etc. AP bruisers aren't a struggling class especially if you want to consider "battle mages" as AP bruisers like Swain and Vlad and the new Viktor build.

Survival; Viktor and Rumble have permashields, Swain has sustain, Vlad has sustain, Lissandra has her ult and an ass-load of CC, Ryze is Ryze, Mordekaiser has his shield AND a heal. The only battle mage who doesn't have a survival tool is Karthus and that's because he's got a death passive that lets him spam spells with no interruption.

Most AD bruisers have healing that's far more conditional than Swain/Vlad or scales with % missing HP which makes them easy to burst when their sustain is strongest. The ones with shields tend to have it on higher cooldowns and only use it once or twice in a fight. Therefore, they get to have better up front stats because their kit's survival tools come up short in comparison.

Also, APs all have the advantage of being ranged or having ranged attacks, and none of them bar Lissandra needs to get into the thickest part of the fight to do their thing.

Sorry but what? AP itemization have no items of their own, they all share the exact same items that every single AP assassin, AP burst mage, AP DPS mage, control mage, AP support and AP champion in general has. Every single AD bruiser also has items that grants them durability and damage all while actually having items that are specifically tailored to their needs. AD bruisers do not need to cannibalize items from the other classes unlike AP ones that have no other choice since they have no items of their own.

Also why are you telling me about a bunch of mages instead of actual AP bruisers? Karthus is not an AP bruiser, Viktor isn't one either and Rumble is a thing of his own. So we have Vlad that wants to be in the middle of everything for him to do anything. Swain that also needs to be in the middle of everything for him to be effective. Lissandra is not an AP bruiser, she is a control mage. Mordekaiser is more of a Juggernaut but ok, he still needs to be in the middle of everything to do anything. Ryze also needs to be close in the fight to do anything but "none of them need to be in the thick of things to do their thing". You want to try again please? AD bruisers and AP bruisers have pretty much the exact same amount of defensive tools and those that they lack can be compensated through items. It's way easier for AD bruisers to do so since they don't need to rely on the itemization of other classes to function unlike AP ones. AD bruisers have a better itemization just from the fact that they have one at all!

Moody PNov 6, 20181 votes

because what you have is already everything you need. Health, damage, resists, penetration - you actually get to spec much better into penetration than most AD fighters (Conqueror/Darius notwithstanding) even though AP is harder to buy against. There is no niche in the items you have that you're lacking.

Battle mages are the closest thing to AP bruisers you're going to get besides tanks who are buying 1-2 AP items like Gragas. Viktor is meta buying Iceborn and Abyssal until next patch; he's definitely adopted his own equivalent of a bruiser build and playstyle. Mordekaiser is a mage and has been a mage for years. Ryze is ranged, Swain is ranged, Vlad doesn't need to be in the middle of a teamfight for any longer than it takes for him to mash down his E key and he has all the tools he needs to survive in there too. Rumble gets to play as basically a ranged champion for most of the game bar early game passive procs.

No, they don't. AP sustain and self-defense from these champions far outclasses what AD bruisers have innately. That's why they have to buy it through their items; you just have to buy AP/health to scale into yours naturally. That's the tradeoff.

ZephyrDrakeNov 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAivEiA7,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T01:29:25.044+0000)

because what you have is already everything you need. Health, damage, resists, penetration - you actually get to spec much better into penetration than most AD fighters (Conqueror/Darius notwithstanding) even though AP is harder to buy against. There is no niche in the items you have that you're lacking.

Battle mages are the closest thing to AP bruisers you're going to get besides tanks who are buying 1-2 AP items like Gragas. Viktor is meta buying Iceborn and Abyssal until next patch; he's definitely adopted his own equivalent of a bruiser build and playstyle. Mordekaiser is a mage and has been a mage for years. Ryze is ranged, Swain is ranged, Vlad doesn't need to be in the middle of a teamfight for any longer than it takes for him to mash down his E key and he has all the tools he needs to survive in there too. Rumble gets to play as basically a ranged champion for most of the game bar early game passive procs.

No, they don't. AP sustain and self-defense from these champions far outclasses what AD bruisers have innately. That's why they have to buy it through their items; you just have to buy AP/health to scale into yours naturally. That's the tradeoff.

Viktor is not an AP bruiser. The vast majority of champions you mentioned are not AP bruisers and they need t be in the thick of things to do stuff. You want an actual AP bruiser? Diana she is literally one ONE AP bruiser that exist. The entire rest are battle mages, control mages, burst mages, AP assassins and champions whose playstyle is pretty much unique enough to be their own thing. AP bruisers have no itemization you can keep saying how much they do but they don't. They have AP items they can build and pretty much everyone else has to because they have no actual itemization of their own. AD bruisers have their own. AD bruisers have better itemization just due the fact of them actually having one. I don't care what AP items give. They are literally one hodgepodge of items whose only real clear identity is the item 3802 line and even that is just "this is for champions that use mana".

AP items have no identity of their own and pretty much every single item an AP bruiser can build is found in a bunch of other champions from every single class imaginable. You can say that AP items are strong, you can say whatever you want about the items, except that "X class of AP champion has better itemization than their AD counterpart" since that is factually wrong just from the fact that the AD counterpart actually has an itemization.

Every AD bruiser has just as much tools to survive and just as many items than their AP counterparts and you want to know something else? they do it with less offensive stats and without the need of every single one of their items needing to be so overloaded with stats which is what AP items are. You can believe all you want but AP bruisers cannot even build tank items since if they do they become largely worthless. What does that tell you about AD bruisers that can still be effective even while building tank items? When AP bruisers (and AP champions in general) actually have distinct itemization and not "this item needs to do pretty much everything and appeal to almost everyone in order to be good" type of items you can come here and say about how great AP bruiser (and AP in general) itemization is

deadlychuckNov 5, 20181 votes

AP items fill the needs of every champion who could possibly need them

Yes, and the issue of the AD/AP divide is that AD items also fill those same needs of every champion who could possibly need them. But AP is used as a handicap on champion's power, rather than a meaningful difference.

There's two ways that a developer can resolve this design flaw, which puts one of the primary stats as a subset of the other. Inflate the less useful stat to the same range of use as the more useful stat. Basically they'd have to make Azir style champions just as viable as marksmen. Or reel back in the range of applications of the more flexible stat, both in their itemization and their utilization. Basically removing items like item 3813 which exist to function exactly like AP for AD champions, as well as removing the abilities that act as the focal point of AD champion's damage output.

Moody PNov 5, 20183 votes

the difference is that an AD champion has to buy that item specifically (and it's not even a good item for more than 5 champions, 1 of which has stopped buying it in season 8) where an AP champion who's meant to be able to keep themselves alive reliably in a fight has such survival tools in addition to superior overall kits; AD champions are far more damage focused because of the nature of the stat, and AP champions make up for it in a plethora of other ways. AD is actually the less flexible of the 2 - it just has more flexibility within the smaller area it covers, which in almost every case is strictly damage.

AP isn't 'less useful' just because it doesn't scale as hard as crit AD does. When it scales shields, heals, buffs and damage, calling it "less useful" is insultingly wrong.

deadlychuckNov 5, 20181 votes

AP champion who's meant to be able to keep themselves alive reliably in a fight has such survival tools in addition to superior overall kits

Yes, AP champions have itemization which increase their survival in fights. No, they don't have superior kits, they have more ability focused kits. It's not self evident to be a good thing either. If you have an AP skill which scales and, for example, stuns. Then where an AD champion could choose to hold onto a stun to maximize it's use while still dealing damage, an AP champion has to choose between the two optimal method of using their single ability.

AD champions are far more damage focused because of the nature of the stat

AD isn't inherently more damage focused as it pertains to abilities. Yes, AD's implicit 100% scaling with auto attacks, but there's noting about the nature of AD which makes the champion's abilities more damage focused. In fact, in a well designed system, their abilities should be less damage focused to account for this implicit scaling. While AP champion's end up with more powerful abilities, on account of not having the same implicit power growth from simply purchasing stats. The exception to this is HP, as the other primary stat, which everyone can purchase and see implicit power growth.

AP isn't 'less useful' just because it doesn't scale as hard as crit AD does. When it scales shields, heals, buffs and damage, calling it "less useful" is insultingly wrong.

Funny, because AD is also used to scale shields, Riven , heals Fiora , buffs/debuffs were a niche thing that riot tried to do back in like season 3 or 4 specifically for supports but never removed I think there's only like 3 maybe 4 instances Nami Lulu Janna Sona , and yes damage. Yet, most CC is not scaled except by CDR which is no longer an AP secondary stat, instead it's just a universally available stat. Like imagine how imbalanced it would be if they took a secondary stat like lifesteal and extended that to apply to the other primary stat(s)?! Like wouldn't item 3145 that just be https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/6f/Will_of_the_Ancients_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20171223021758 so broken item 3146 ?! Actually overwhelmingly no, but there's some of the irony in the whole situation.

CauseSCIENCENov 5, 20181 votes

I just want to say that I disagree completely but don't want to state my argument for the sake of getting into one of those ten+ post wars that pop up every so often on the boards.