PSA: Divers and Assassins are two completely different classes

OyddAWqJ5r··53 votes·3,018 views

I see alot of people throwing the term Assassin around but using it to define completely Diver related champions and concepts. It seems that the majority envisions an Assassin to simply be someone that deletes a single target.

Assassins however are not the only class defined by single target deletion. You also have Divers whose role is to target a single enemy and Dive past resistance using tankiness, some form of CC immunity and some form of single target CC lockdown to completely obliterate it. Following this, Divers then proceed to brawl in the midst of the enemy team. Divers also just so happen to be some of the best gankers in the game since they specialize in single target lockdown and deletion. Just look at Vi Hecarim Nocturne Camille .

An Assassin's role however is to wait until they see an opening where CC/damage won't keep them from their target and use their gap closing tools to catch it and delete it with a full spell rotation before using an escape tool to get out and look for another opening. Assassins do not want to charge head on and they don't want to stick around in the midst of 4 enemies after deleting a target as that's basically suicide.

Divers and Assassins tend to dip into each others skillsets sometimes just like any other archtype does (such as Ahri being a pseudo-Assassin) but it's fairly simple to see what their true identity is (such as Ahri is still a Burst Mage).


So onto a more recent misuse of the term Assassin lets look at Rengar and the things he has that Assassins don't have and Divers do.

  1. Great ganking potential due to single target lockdown and deletion capabilities.
  2. The ability to continue brawling in the midst of the enemy after killing his target.
  3. The ability to dive past resistance tactically using stealth and the ability to either lock his target down with E or ignore incoming CC and some damage with W.

Now let's look at the traits that align him with the Assassin archtype.

  1. He can escape after a kill with empowered W (maybe) and Stormraider if he's running it.
  2. Can't literally dive head on as he has to keep his distance during his ult to remain unseen.

Not much huh? And even then what's there is pushing it.

So when you all say that you want Rengar to be an Assassin are you saying you want his plethora of Diver tools removed in exchange for proper Assassin escape tools or are you just misusing the term "Assassin" when what you really mean to say is "reliable burst"?

94 Comments

BananaSlayerAMO8 votes

The line becomes a bit blurred when you look at champions like Diana, who are classified as Divers but often played like Assassins.

Zerenza2 votes

Yeah she was also designed to initially be a fighter/diver but people played her as an assassin instead due to her high base damage/scaling. She also lacks the CC to be a proper diver like Camille, Vi or Hecarim, she still builds like a diver though, most diana games i play i end the game with atleast 3000 health while building mostly damage, even if i have 0 resistance items it's a lot of health so you can see where riot wanted diana to be.

OyddAWqJ5r11 votes

I feel like people aren't reading the post >_>

Divers can build 100% glass cannon and still be Divers. Sure they'll be pretty bad at it since they'll either nuke their target or die before they do but even still.

Divers can one-shot people and still not be an Assassin at all.

An Assassin put simply one who kills and gets out. She can't reliably use her R as an escape so Diana whether full damage or full defense is a Diver by nature.

Ralanr8 votes

People have trouble understanding that burst does not define an assassin alone.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Seriously

Julius Evola2 votes

[deleted]

macromite17 votes

Since you have invented your own class called "divers"

You lack the prior information requirment to join this conversation.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Subclass is defined by kit, not defined by build, and champions are permanantly their subclass, it doesn't shift during games.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Hecarim with Frozen Heart = Diver Hecarim with Ghostblade = Diver

Oh and btw Diver is an official subclass according to Riot. Look it up.

Terchio5 votes

This is no invention of his, bud. This is Riot's exact definitions for the class, and how they balance champions. If Nocturne is building Lethality sometimes, Black Cleaver sometimes, then Riot figures out whether both can be healthy for his kit, and if not, chop what's not fitting in a healthy way, or find a method to leave good balance.

That said, Both of those Nocturnes are still divers. They both function by focusing a priority target, and then tend to be stuck in the fray, with varying degrees of success on each part. He can't generally hop back out in a teamfight, at least if he's prioritized, so he is classified as a diver. Divers do not necessarily excel at tankiness nor CC Elise Nocturne (though it's clearly quite common within the class).

Overall, champion kits determine a general champion playstyle, and what their class is overall. If you're playing them a bit outside those guidelines, like LeeSin item 3142 item 3147 vs LeeSin item 3156 item 3071 vs LeeSin item 3068 item 3143 , your goals vary just a bit, but you're still utilizing the kit in generally similar ways. As a clarification, even tank is no longer a class, because there are different ways of doing it. Now, instead, we have wardens (Amumu Maokai Nautilus) who disrupt as they tank, and juggernauts (Garen Mordekaiser Shyvana) who lack CC while they tank (with generally low mobility compared to divers and assassins). The champion damage and tankiness is generally not part of a class, simply because it's easy to build out of those subclasses. However, kit-based classes are more commonly accurate, as kits are designed to scale in that direction.

Overall point: This is not DotA. You can't make a stunner out of just anybody, and you can't buy assassin mobility (Yeah, there's summoner 4 for free, and item 3078 item 3285 item 3142 , but assassins generally still have an edge). Champion kits have more general purposes to them, and off-builds aren't as well suited unless those constraints are put into consideration. You play Nocturne like you do Talon, or even off-build, you should expect to die a lot, as he isn't getting out of battle as readily as Talon can.

LordForrest2 votes

Uh, You made a mistake tanks are split into Wardens and Vanguards. Wardens(Galio) defend and Vanguards(Malphite) initiate.

Juggernauts are part of the fighter subclass along with Divers.

Terchio1 votes

Yeah, true. I can never get those straight. Truth be told, I don't really understand the Warden/Vanguard split (particularly with Galio... maybe the change?). If you're a tank, chances are that you want to initiate. Also, if you've got the CC to peel for your carry, you've probably got enough to pick off the enemy carry.

As an example, I used to play Skarner back before all the reworks. They call him a Diver now, but he used to function as more of a "Vanguard" to me, as his job was usually to pick off the opposing carry, and relentlessly bring him down with your tankiness to force the aggro on you. I still don't think he goes in fast enough (nor kill fast enough) typically to be a true diver. However, I always typically played him the Warden model instead; initiate with the smaller CC abilities, and save the only reliable hard CC in his kit for either peeling the "Vanguard"/assassin/diver, or for breaking the channel on champs like Malz/Kat/WW.

There are a couple of legit Wardens, but even they tend to have support abilities that are stronger than merely tanking. I mean, not all of the lines are completely solid between the classes, but I don't understand when they assume I'm going to use my CC for good or bad generally. As an example, I feel Nautilus makes a far better Warden than Poppy . Her CC is just too limited, and she builds strong enough to pick off a squishy moreso than protecting people. Naut meanwhile has CC all over the place, but limited mobility in and no reliable ranged CC, so he's better off peeling until he can find that sweet hook spot, if he can afford to hold that. Sometimes you can ult them down, but most carries can outrun that thing a very long distance, if they even feel threatened by your rooting abilities alone.

McAllister1 votes

Nautilus 's ult and hook are both great for starting fights, so he's definitely a Vanguard. Poppy 's charge and ult are both great for peeling, I see her as clear Warden. Sure, most CC could either initiate or peel, but being long ranged/AoE/pulling enemies is better initiate, and being short ranged/long duration/pushing away is better peel.

Skarner feels like a Warden/Juggernaut. When your initiation is running up to people and using your short-ranged ult on one target, you're not a damn Vanguard, much less a Diver. Low mobility, high tankiness, good damage (although typically more AoE than single target)? That says Juggernaut. Two medium-short ranged hard CCs, one of which is an absolute boatload of "get off my carry" says Warden.

's how I see it, anyhow.

Done251 votes

The way I see it is that Vanguard = Offensive Tank while Warden = Defensive Tank.

Rammus, Amumu, and Sejuani are Vanguards.

Thresh, Braum, and Taric are Wardens.

Ralanr32 votes

She's played more like a WW2 Japanese fighter pilot than an assassin simply because she has no escape. That's the key difference of assassins honestly, having or having multiple escape options.

Diana has none. When she goes in it's kill or be killed. That's a diver.

DuskDaUmbreon31 votes

Diana has a great escape route. It's called a pentakill. /s

Saianna1 votes

That's the key difference of assassins honestly,

Um... Assassins didn't have escapes untill Riot started making every new assassin super-safe to play

So... I'm just kinda against calling safe picks as assassins just cause they were made in powercreep era..

Atanchan3 votes

You're talking about an entirely different set of assassins. That's the old champion tag "assassin," which really just meant anyone who could destroy a single target in a flash, even if they had 0 mobility.

It wasn't even used that well, because champions like Yi and Trynd had it, despite being DPS characters until they went supercritical.

The Kill Robber1 votes

Assassins and the new "Skirmishers" fall into a category known as Slayers.

Assassins have escape routes and EXTREME close-up damage, like [leblanc-funny] [katarina-love]

Skirmishers instead have defensive tools to help them survive a LITTLE while longer, but they aren't as bursty. Consider [fiora-cool] She has high damage, but only over a period of time. She heals off of her passive and Ult, and her W makes her immune to CC. But she doesn't necessarily have a solid escape ability.

The Kill Robber1 votes

Warwick item 3083 item 3022 item 3110 = [galio-happy] Warwick item 3083 item 3742 item 3153 = [garen-swing] Warwick item 3072 item 3031 item 3026 = [fiora-cool] Warwick not learning Blood Hunt = [cass-cry]

Shahamut3 votes

Hooray for logic!!!

lCantPauseltMom2 votes

It may just be an observation, but the Divers you've mentioned as well tend to be played as a form of Off-Tank as often as they are played full damage. Rengar, Vi, Hecarim, Camille - Although you do see a lot of full damage versions of these, in Rengar's case (just as an example) there seems to be a lot who build tankier with items such a Spirit Visage and Dead Man's Plate. You don't see many assassins built off-tank like you do the Divers.

Not sure if that observation was 100% accurate, but that's just what I noticed.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Just to further clarify builds only slightly change the nature of a champion. Whether Vi builds full damage or full tank she is still a Diver. If you just look at how the kit plays out when built both ways you can clearly tell this.

Here's why.

When Vi builds full damage she still is looking to ult her primary target and delete them. Only this time her damage is much higher and probably capable of going beyond simply one-shotting. She may die immediately afterwards or possibly take another champ too.

When Vi builds full defense she still is looking to ult her primary target and take them out of the fight--whether she kills them or not. Afterwards her goal is to pressure them away from the fight or kill them.

In both cases you can clearly see that she's still fulfilling her role as a Diver.

Just because a champion builds full damage and can one-shot doesn't change the nature of their kit which still remains focused on their primary subclass. As I said in the OP, the ability to 100-0 isn't the defining attribute of an Assassin champion. The reason Ahri is considered to fulfill that subclass as well is because she can go in, 100-0 a target and then escape easily--which is essentially the definition of an Assassin.

Terchio2 votes

Assassins however are not the only class defined by single target deletion. You also have Divers whose role is to target a single enemy and Dive past resistance using tankiness, some form of CC immunity and some form of single target CC lockdown to completely obliterate it.

This is true. However, it's also conflating the class, because even that is not a necessity. Elise is now one of the squishiest champions in the game, and a diver, and not reliable enough on her Cocoon to be a true CC threat.

The key to the class is the mobility. If you can get in and out, in theory, we peg you as an assassin. If getting in is easy, but getting out tends to be an issue, you're a diver. By this definition, Rengar may be the poster child diver in the game, and probably why he has been shoved the tankier direction. Having such high damage threat without an escape nor reliable CC leaves you being difficult to make viable in later game without being a delete bot, and yet being a delete bot (and being able to hand pick that deletion with ease) makes for a champion who can shake up an enemy team strategy with very limited counterplay. At least Elise is easy to follow in order to shut her down. Rengo is basically locked by his ultimate into either being OP in unfair ways, or being useless if you can't fill that delete role. With some tankiness in the mix, he at least has something to fall back on.

Standgrounding2 votes

Divers? You forgot LeeSin in the list, especially considering his state now. And XinZhao

sardiniii2 votes

Divers are not necessarily assassins but assassins are always almost divers

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Divers are a subclass, a Fighter variant. Assassins are also a subclass, a variant of Slayer. No Divers are Assassins and no Assassins are Divers. It's a distinction that Riot defined.

sardiniii2 votes

Well I mean, many assassins can effectively dive and escape.

Take zed or talon

Pierce The Veal2 votes

Well Nocturne is officially classified as an Assassin.

I'd say both divers and assassins in some cases play almost identically. It's bullshit that people keep going around trying to separate all of them.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Very similar but perform very different functions.

As say Vi or Camille you're going to dive on an enemy and pummel them to death, sometimes in a single rotation sure but then you're stuck there but can still contribute to the fight through either decent DPS, tankiness, CC or a combination of the three.

As Talon or Zed you're going to dive on them and kill them with a spell rotation then zoom back out and not contribute as much to the fight after until your CD's are back up and you dive your next target. Though in Zed and Talon's cases they can toss Q and W respectively on relatively short CD's while they await their next opportunity.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o8ztwzIE,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2017-06-14T02:18:16.190+0000)

Very similar but perform very different functions.

As say Vi or Camille you're going to dive on an enemy and pummel them to death, sometimes in a single rotation sure but then you're stuck there but can still contribute to the fight through either decent DPS, tankiness, CC or a combination of the three.

As Talon or Zed you're going to dive on them and kill them with a spell rotation then zoom back out and not contribute as much to the fight after until your CD's are back up and you dive your next target. Though in Zed and Talon's cases they can toss Q and W respectively on relatively short CD's while they await their next opportunity.

As Nocturne you're going to dive and enemy and burst them to death, and, perhaps pull off some dps. But you shouldn't be expected to tank anything. Plus, Nocturne has about as good of a get away as most of the assassins. In the case of Vi and Camille, they have better getwayas than almost ALL of the assassins (except say, Kassadin).

The problem is this classification is bullshit. There is a range of champions, from those who dps to those who burst, from those who have no get aways to those have many get aways that are all split up and almost randomly called divers or assassins based on Riot's "vision" of the game. This is a spectrum, not some binary system where you're either a diver or an assassin.

Sad thing is, in this day and age, almost all divers are better assassins than assassins are.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Nocturne is currently an outlier. He may as well be in the unique playstyle subclass.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o8ztwzIE,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T05:31:31.918+0000)

Nocturne is currently an outlier. He may as well be in the unique playstyle subclass.

Fair enough,

Though I would put Akali in that class as well. No real escape, no real tankyness, no real dps, just burst sustain in combat mobility.

WinTheWarOnPants2 votes

annnnd then you have LeeSin....

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Well Lee Sin is actually a ranged, melee, tanky dps, assassin, mage, tank, support, jungler according to the April 1st Champion Spotlight.

WinTheWarOnPants2 votes

The real joke is that it's kinda true lol

TotalJerk1 votes

Early game he's an assassin, and late game he either transitions into a diver if he got ahead, or a pseudo tanky support if he didn't.

Tusutaki2 votes

In short, the new class systems are needlessly more complex than before. The line between divers and assassins is so blurry that there's practically no difference between them due to how similar they function and defined save for a select few. All it does is confuses players more than it helps them.

Ralanr1 votes

To be fair, the old class system had useless terms as well.

Fighter was completely homogenized.

Tusutaki2 votes

Fighter at least gives you an idea of how the champion operates. Medium to high offense with medium utility. The only class additions I do like and agree with are Juggernauts and Enchanters. Both gives you a clear idea of what the champion is and does from the get go.

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

The problem with calling Nocturne a Diver is that he doesn't build more than, like, one defensive item, meaning that the main use of his abilities is to catch someone out rather than go to the back line in a team fight, because he can't deal with being focused like Vi or Hec can

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

There are only 3 definitions for "diving" type champions.

Vanguards - Tanks that initiate fights with big AoE CC Divers - Fighters that focus down a single target then transition into a fighter Assassins - Slayers that focus down a single target then escape and wait for their next opportunity

With those said, he definitely fits more into the Diver category.

Sukishoo3 votes

He fits it kit wise but due to the way people build him Riot classes him as an Assassin.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

No, they classed him as an assassin cause his theme fit more in assassin... But they'll rework him for it.

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

The problem is that, in a practical sense, he DOESN'T transition into a fighter. He just dies. He isn't like other Divers, whose diving tool is CC. Therefore he has to build full damage to be able to do any amount of fighting, since his CC is so delayed. He doesn't have the escape tools of an assassin, granted, but that's why he has to catch people rather than team fight.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

What the kit is trying to do is have him ult into one target and fear them yadda yadda but sadly with damage creep over the many years he can no longer stay alive long enough to do it.

I can see that labeling making sense though in a sort of Kha Zix way--especially since it's on a semi-global level.

Doctor Jarvis2 votes

Honestly the spooky dude needs a rework to sort that out. Is he supposed to be a Boogeyman that comes out of the shadows and swiftly murders you, or is he supposed to be a more hulking Boogeyman that appears and thrashes wildly at a group of people? Both of those things are in his kit in some way, but he isn't enough of either of them to be easily classified.

volvagia461 votes

Please do not suggest a noc rework, his kit is fine the way it is. I would be grateful for some reduced mana costs on his q/e/r (he runs out of mana way too much, especially when running up against meta jgs such as lee and elise) and a more reliable e, but a complete rework? please don't kill my favorite champ.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

So. Question: Does this mean that Akali is a diver, and not an assassin? Her escape tools are basically nil (W is less an escape and more a breather, R requires an enemy target), and her common builds almost support a diver playstyle. Yet, at the same time, she's squishy as hell, and typically instakilled by CC.

Ralanr4 votes

Riot probably wants her to be more of an assassin (hence her W blink) but she does currently play like a diver imo. She's a candidate for a full VGU in the future however.

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