Balancing all assasssins across all MMR

D357R0Y3R··4 votes·2,757 views

Disclaimer: that post was made by an ADC main

Assassins are so bad in high elo (except Akali) it's not even funny anymore. At this point of the game it's been 2 years since Zed saw competitive plays, the champion that people loved to watch Faker playing. But at the same time, they've been impossible to balance in low elo.

And Riot is not helping that either, Kassadin was buffed so much to the point where now opgg and lolalytics state a 52% win rate and 10% pick rate. Yet he's still not picked in pro =?

The reason is quite simple, those champions tend to have inexistent lane pressure until level 6 while at the same time having no answer to pressure. Lane pressure is actually the most important thing in high elo, it allows you to make the enemy laner unable to answer to your roaming which is important mid because of how the lane is located at the center of the map. That is the reason why Akali is played, her sustain and manaless ranged Q makes her able to counter the pressure of midlaners until lvl 6 where she can all in them. If you take Zed for instance, this champion is melee and has 22 seconds cooldown on W. Zed has no sustain unlike Akali so he has to pressure back, but his "good" poke has 22 seconds cd, how is going to counter the pressure every 22 seconds? and at the same time his W is what makes him escaping ganks, the moment he uses him midlaners will be like "hey hey junglers come, 22 seconds to get a free kill!!!!". Or sometimes it's the way around, junglers are in the bush and the midlaner just walk to zed to force him to W to poke and counter the pressure then the jungler all ins for a free kill. And when he gets pressured, he's going to get denied, or pushed, unable to answer to roaming, and his waveclear is not good until mid game.

All of those things do not matter in low mmr because here, people won't abuse the 22 seconds cd W, or often die in a single all in from zed.

So knowing that logic, what things can we do to improve the situation?

First of all, remove item 3147 nightstalker damage reasoning: it's terrible, even LL stylish doesn't build it anymore https://i.gyazo.com/13ed61a3c54065e34096adf2b42585f1.png

Duskblade's passive damage is almost non existent now, the +3 lethality improved the damage of assassins by nearly 2% Upfront damage does not help to balance the class across all mmr as low elo often reacts slower than high elo. Riot should try to seek other ideas instead Improving the utility it gives can help a lot in high elo, as those assassins will be useful while behind.

Second: Lethality---->reverted to armor penetration (while decreasing numbers)

I do not understand why AP bruisers and AP burst champions can deal true damage after 2600 gold, but we make AD burst champions more feast or famin with a level dependant armor penetration mechanic, it also had less value (was like 10 armor pen by items unlike morello and mr pen boots) while champions have x2 more base armor than base mr. ?

item 3142 18 lethality--->10 armor pen item 3814 18 lethality--->10 armor pen item 3147 21 lethality--->15 armor pen nightstalker----> no longer deals damage (still slows) Blackout----> cooldown rescaled from 90 seconds to 60-40 seconds depending on levels

Zed Reducing his W cooldown might bring back problems that pre-nerf zed had when his W had 18 seconds cd, I assume so or Riot would already have reverted the nerf, same with Lucian's E cooldown nerf. Instead, make zed able to lane without using his W to keep it from ganks. At the same time, reduce his all in to keep him from being overpowered in low mmr.

Base range: 125---->175 Contempt for the weak: Damage rescaled from 6/8/10% max health to 4/6/8/10/12% max health depending on levels Shuriken razor: cost rescaled from 75/70/65/60/55 to 55 at all ranks Cooldown reduced from 6 seconds to 5 seconds damage penality from multiple shuriken: 0%----->40 New: At rank 5 damage penality is removed

Death mark needs a buff honnestly, Zed's ult is so bad in high mmr not because of things like item 2420 which already hard counters him, but because of the high delay he has before he appears behind a target. It makes it so easy to stun lock him once he appears with any spell in the game If you're Ahri, Orianna or whatever it is cc'ing zed once he appears behind you is way too easy and leads to Zed's ult being totally uneffective.

Death mark: Zed vanishes for 0.75 second-----> 0.5 second

Talon Doesn't need changes tbh, unlike Zed he's played by midlane mains in high elo that aren't Talon hardcore otps. Also sees plays because he's safer in early game with more base MR , some flat hp sustain and decent lane pressure.

Akali win rate states that she isn't a problem in low mmr. Definitly a problem in high mmr, this champion deals just way too much damage. It's not the mobility that got reduced or micro-stun or whatever the fuck the boards make it sound like. Unlike other assassins Akali has top tier DPS that can match a champion like Azir due to her passive having no cooldown+ Q cooldown. The W duration also makes her hard countering some champions, the increased duration is a good mechanic to force Akali to reveal herself often (which makes oppenents able to deal damage) but the base duration itself is an issue

Assassin's mark: has now 2 seconds cd Five point strike: Cost rescaled from 100/95/90/85/80 to 100 Twilight Shroud: Base duration reduced from 5/5.5/6/6.5/7 to 4 seconds Max duration reduced from 8/8.5/9/9.5/10 to 8 seconds

Fizz I have no idea on how to fix this champ. In low mmr his problem is enemies not knowing what the fuck is this champ's cooldown and getting killed in one all in (before lvl 6). In high mmr his problem is mana problem during the lane, and the same shit than Zed. No ability to pressure back without exposing himself for a long time. I guess what Riot can do is, nerfing some early damage somewhere, and then reduce his E cooldown while keeping the high mana cost to keep it in check. But the problem is that if you kill that champ's early all in then there is no point in taking him anymore since he can't lane with that kit if he doesn't bully the enemy laner. Guess he needs a rework

Kassadin Pretty simple, too much power into late game and ESPECIALLY lvl 16. Joke of a champion before 2 items or even 3, no lane pressure (though while trading A LOT OF damage he's able to get a lot of sustain from runes). All of that doesn't matter in lower mmr as lane pressuring is less mastered (meaning that abusing kassadin's lack of waveclear to roam is also less done) and games last a long time for him to scale.

Solution: increase his ult cd to 5 sec at all ranks, make his pre 2 items better (increase base damage, reduce a bit the scaling). Possibly reduce Q range from 650 to 575 as in the past everytime it had good base damage, kassadin forced everyone out of lane.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

the end

30 Comments

chipndip13 votes

I get your points on Akali...but you can't do ALL those Akali nerfs at once. That'd make the champ straight trash in all elos. If her issue is damage, leave her shroud alone. Personally, I think a shroud up-time nerf and a slight damage nerf would be enough.

Fízz v22 votes

Guess he needs a rework

agreed rework Fizz plox

but it wont be a big profit rework and not many people play fizz so riot will probably just let him be useless omegalel

I wouldnt really say kassadin is a joke before 2 or 3 items, he can already trade/all in pretty well at level 6+ and with rod because he is so tanky. But its not like being able to all in is very important in high elo, and his wave clear is pretty bad.

I agree that Akali is way too strong but 3 sec passive cd likely hurts a lot.. a lot more than it should, especially with the other nerfs.

Wouldnt say 100+ extra damage is non existent, pretty sure most Zeds still go Duskblade, just after Youmus now.

Also

I do not understand why AP bruisers and AP burst champions can deal true damage after 2600 gold

yeah double pen is pretty good, but there is 1 big difference: boots. If AP champs want pen, they have to give up overpowered defensive boots. item 3111 alone counters over 75% of the magic pen from item 3916 item 3020 WHILE reducing important cc from mages like Zoe Ryze Syndra etc.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3oMt4wR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-16T10:16:53.005+0000)

Wouldnt say 100+ extra damage is non existent

idk, is it not? hextech revolver gives almost the same damage and is not a core item protobelt deals more damage with the active triforce deals like x2 the damage it gives and can be proced on towers

I think they should remove the damage part, keep the slow for utility, and increase the utility of the item I might be wrong tho

yeah double pen is pretty good, but there is 1 big difference: boots. If AP champs want pen, they have to give up overpowered defensive boots.

ok you're right, but I don't think giving up defensive boots is as huge as dealing true damage. Literally ignoring 25% damage reduction is very effective

Also rushing MR is less possible than rushing armor, and that because meddler said "whenever MR is rushable it makes midlane boring" ok lul

Fízz v21 votes

No Id agree with removing the upfront burst. Id also like to have some items for ap assassins/burst champs other than the standard "get some mana, Oblivion Orb/Morello, and then.. Rabadons/Void Staff since youre an ap champ I guess" :(

I don't think giving up defensive boots is as huge as dealing true damage

well, only to 0 bonus MR champs. Like I said double pen is strong, but in a direct 1v1, item 3111 is legit 3 times as effective as item 3020

D357R0Y3R1 votes

wtf fizz dono, that's the first time I see you argumenting precisely

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

I was so confused why this thread had upvotes because of the title then I read it. Almost every one of your suggestions is just straight nerfs with 0 power added anywhere else. Was that your intent?

D357R0Y3R1 votes

really? I mean i'm not a game designer so I can't give good numbers

but my intent was to make assassins safe from lvl 1 to lvl 6 while reducing their ability to kill inexperienced players (again from lvl 1 to lvl 6) because right now the reason they're not picked is because they get destroyed so hard by experienced players that can for instance abuse zed's 22 sec cd W.

Misses Old Talon1 votes

I was onboard until Talon. Revert him for the love of god

D357R0Y3R1 votes

Hm I liked old talon's E idk why they removed it it was so cool for him to teleport behind someone and be like "nothing personal kid" now he has a shitty dash

but hey the community and riot like new talon so nothing we can do

Andevar2 votes

{quoted}

Hm I liked old talon's E idk why they removed it it was so cool for him to teleport behind someone and be like "nothing personal kid" now he has a shitty dash

but hey the community and riot like new talon so nothing we can do

His old E was pretty unhealthy, being able to zone someone off just by walking off then pressing E, W, Q, R and instantly killing someone.

Beatrice falls1 votes

Changing lethality to armor pene doesn't mean tanks are going to disappear completely from the game ? Don't forget : not only Assassins can build them, and I don't want to deal with adcs having so much armor pene. Also it wouldn't actually change this much against squishy targets, since front-loaded damage are still going to hit this hard

Also I'm not sure about it, but doesn't it also mean that assassins (AD) are going to be quite weak early game, meh mid game and shine during late game, which totally reverse the point of assassins that have to snowball early ?

Sharpest glasses3 votes

Changing lethality to armor pene doesn't mean tanks are going to disappear completely from the game ?

???? Tanks dosn't care about flat pen.

Also I'm not sure about it, but doesn't it also mean that assassins (AD) are going to be quite weak early game, meh mid game and shine during late game, which totally reverse the point of assassins that have to snowball early ?

Its the reverse. With flat pen, Assassins would be stronger early and mid game. Weaker late.

Sleepcoma1 votes

If you want to make fizz better at higher mmr then revert his R so that it doesn't increase size and damage with cast range. Lower mmr players probably get hit by the big shark, while high mmr players will know how to dodge it. Doing this would allow for Q into R animation cancel, and you wouldn't be losing a lost of damage as the fizz player.

Nyarlathοtep

If you're Ahri, Orianna or whatever it is cc'ing zed once he appears behind you is way too easy and leads to Zed's ult being totally uneffective.

Wait what? In 1v1 zed wont get cc chained. Sure he will get charmed/displaced. But that is only for a moment. I mean i dont understand how does his ulti loses effectiveness. If a zed is so afraid of getting cced, he can just force them to use it.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

this game is not balanced around 1v1

sorry bro

also getting charmed by ahri is an instant death 100%

Nyarlathοtep

Why does he engage when the enemy has their cc up? Assassins supposedly engage when the time is right. Its not game's fault if an assassin dives to the enemy when they are fully prepared to stop him.

Ahri's charm is instant death? Oh well w/e not gonna discuss that now. Oke so what? Are you telling me they cant play around it?

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

Why does he engage when the enemy has their cc up? Assassins supposedly engage when the time is right. Its not game's fault if an assassin dives to the enemy when they are fully prepared to stop him.

If Zed has ult, why would Ahri charm when that's her defense against Zed?

Nyarlathοtep

How the fk would i know. I mean thats the suggestion i always get when im asking what to do against zed, yasuo, fiora and the likes. They all say, "bait their shadow,ww, parry, etc".

chipndip11 votes

Zed doesn't scale at all. Ahri's at least somewhat useful later where Zed's useless, so he's GONNA try to get a lead early. The pressure is on Zed to go in on Ahri, so Ahri doesn't have to charm unless it's a good chance she lands it. Meanwhile, if Zed plays the waiting game, he's gonna lose, so you can bet there'll be times where he actually does use the shadow to try to hit you or all-in.

For Fiora, you really just need to pressure her a bit and, if you have a strong hard cc threat, she's gonna W out of sheer fear. Yasuo's a similar case. You can bait these abilities out without using your hard cc/burst damage that they're meant for if you do it right.

Nyarlathοtep

Hmm weird. According to opgg both ahri and zed have similar winrates late game. Championgg shows ahri falling off a lot. While zed maintains 50% winrate more or less. Apparently, both are doing more or less the same late game.

For Fiora, you really just need to pressure her a bit and, if you have a strong hard cc threat, she's gonna W out of sheer fear. Yasuo's a similar case. You can bait these abilities out without using your hard cc/burst damage that they're meant for if you do it right.

???? Are you crazy? A decent fiora/yasuo will use their w ONLY when they have to stop crucial abilities. How do you force a yasuo to use his windwall when all of your dmg is dependent on landing you a cc?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Hmm weird. According to opgg both ahri and zed have similar winrates late game. Championgg shows ahri falling off a lot. While zed maintains 50% winrate more or less. Apparently, both are doing more or less the same late game.

More or less, but Ahri's hard cc is more useful regardless. I didn't say Ahri's late game was good. It's just better than Zed's.

???? Are you crazy? A decent fiora/yasuo will use their w ONLY when they have to stop crucial abilities. How do you force a yasuo to use his windwall when all of your dmg is dependent on landing you a cc?

By putting him in a position where he has to assume that the next projectile you use is going to be deadly.

Like, if I'm Poppy into Fiora, for example, and I have her up to a wall, she's in a position where she's gotta assume any split second animation is going to be my E. I could just throw my shield, activate W, Q the floor, or whatever, and she's hard pressed to hit W because she doesn't have time to "wait and see".

If it's Yasuo, it's the same deal. You whittle his health down since you're the one with the projectile AAs and spells and not him, and then you have him in a situation where he doesn't want to risk being hit by crucial spells or not, and he'll have to windwall dang near anything.

This is if things are going your way. If it's not, obviously you're in trouble.

Nyarlathοtep

More or less, but Ahri's hard cc is more useful regardless. I didn't say Ahri's late game was good. It's just better than Zed's.

It should in theory. But statistics dont agree. They have same late game.

By putting him in a position where he has to assume that the next projectile you use is going to be deadly.

What? Oke so here an example of what am saying. As vel koz, i have to land my e in order for me to be able to burst down yasuo. However my e gets blocked by his w. As long as he has his w i cant burst him down. How do i bait his w? He will w only when i cast my e. Furthermore because of his "balanced" mobility my q is a bit difficult to land. My w deals hilariously low dmg so its not threatening.

Like, if I'm Poppy into Fiora, for example, and I have her up to a wall, she's in a position where she's gotta assume any split second animation is going to be my E

But is she? I mean because of how her w works (no cast time) its fast to use it. I mean, if you rely on this, then good luck. Again, good players DONT get baited by stuff like this. They use their defensive abilities when they see the threat. Sure this method is going to work on a bronze. But is it going to work on a gold+? I 100% doubt.

If it's Yasuo, it's the same deal. You whittle his health down since you're the one with the projectile AAs and spells and not him

Oh boi, here comes my strong aa as MAGE. DANG. Great idea.

What if my spells need to have my target stunned or slow? me thinking

chipndip12 votes

Look, man, you need more confidence in your play. If you always think what you're going to do won't work, how are you going to do anything?

Baiting a Fio W is the same thing as baiting a shield in bot lane. You put her in a situation where she's thinking "Crap, I need to W" so she W's the wrong thing. Better players don't get baited as often, yes, but no one is bait-proof.

Actually, based on your response, Idk if you know what "baiting" actually is...because I just told you how it's normally done and you just flat out said "nope, doesn't work".

Nyarlathοtep

You cant compare fiora's w with a common shield. Shields have far less cd than hers.

Are you kidding me dude? Im a velkoz HOW DO I BAIT YASUO'S W WHEN AS LONG AS HE IS NOT CCED I CANT FORCE HIM TO USE IT?

If he is smart he will use it to stop MY E.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

You cant compare fiora's w with a common shield. Shields have far less cd than hers.

A shorter cd would be better for Fiora, not worse. Point stands.

Are you kidding me dude? Im a velkoz HOW DO I BAIT YASUO'S W WHEN AS LONG AS HE IS NOT CCED I CANT FORCE HIM TO USE IT?

If he is smart he will use it to stop MY E.

Put him in a situation where he's afraid of E, then use anything else and he'll react to your action, but not to your E specifically.

Idk, man, if you're not gonna listen to me, I don't know where else the conversation goes. Sorry.

Nyarlathοtep

A shorter cd would be better for Fiora, not worse. Point stands.

sigh you missed my point. She is very careful with her w because it has very long cd in contrast to most shields.

Put him in a situation where he's afraid of E, then use anything else and he'll react to your action, but not to your E specifically.

Excuse me? What? Even if he is in a situation where he is afraid this is literally stupid. Are you crazy? A decent player wont panic. Thats not how it works. Especially with the likes of velkoz. His e has a distinct animation. In his q he uses his eye, in his w he does a spin and in his e he uses his tentacles to throw. Like seriously are you that blind or something? I mean FOR FUCKS SAKE. Yasuo's w takes effect THE MILLISECOND HE PRESSES W. Even if is slow to react HE WONT GET HIT BECAUSE OF HOW HIS W WORKS.

For real now how did you even manage to reach diamond 3.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

sigh you missed my point. She is very careful with her w because it has very long cd in contrast to most shields.

  1. Who the hell is downvoting you on every post you make? Is that you?

  2. You're missing my point. You're just assuming she'll win the neutral game in every ambiguous hypothetical we bring up. She won't. The point of PvP is to make her not win. If you disqualify yourself because you "think" she'll win, she wins before you even try. Baiting is something you need to feel out. It's not something that's formulaic.

Excuse me? What? Even if he is in a situation where he is afraid this is literally stupid. Are you crazy? A decent player wont panic. Thats not how it works.

Once again: You're automatically assuming your failure before you even try. For some champs, it's harder, true, but that doesn't make things impossible. And if you're this pressed by Yasuo in the lane, you can just farm with your range. You're an artillery mage, so you don't have to be mince meat if you don't want to.

For real now how did you even manage to reach diamond 3.

I'm going to very respectfully disregard this and hope you don't do that again.

Nyarlathοtep
  1. Who the hell is downvoting you on every post you make? Is that you?
  1. You're missing my point. You're just assuming she'll win the neutral game in every ambiguous hypothetical we bring up. She won't. The point of PvP is to make her not win. If you disqualify yourself because you "think" she'll win, she wins before you even try. Baiting is something you need to feel out. It's not something that's formulaic.

Actually i just remove my upvote. I find upvoting your own comment a bit weird.

Thats just how her defensive spell works. Upon pressing w, she becomes immune for the next 0.75 sec. Almost everything in this game that is offensive, has either a travel time or a delay, along with a cast time.

And if you're this pressed by Yasuo in the lane, you can just farm with your range.

But the point is to bait his w. Thats why we are currently arguing.

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