Is Kalista never gonna get an E nerf on monsters?

Visigoth·Apr 19, 2015·108 votes·5,055 views

I yhink it's slightly unfair that she can outsmite a Nunu or Cho'Gath who have 2k true damage. And her Rend isn't specific to monsters like Nunu consume

103 Comments

BeerOfRoot4843Apr 19, 201545 votes

"-2% attack speed

And we're done!" -Balance Team

Tentacle LoveApr 20, 201517 votes

{quoted}

"-2% attack speed

And we're done!" -Balance Team

Well, that IS her best ability score by far. You nerf that, you nerf her mobility, objective control, her zoning, everything.

LOL SpammerApr 20, 20155 votes

Which is a bad thing how?

Tentacle LoveApr 20, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=LOL Spammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3htBGv5,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T11:51:46.779+0000)

Which is a bad thing how?

I didn't say it was a bad thing.

But it is rather odd, don't you think, that one single stat controls so much of her kit?

ThryaleApr 20, 20152 votes

yes and no.

"no" in the fact that it sets her apart from other adc's giving her a unique identity

"yes" in the fact that it means she can be unfairly nerfed in some areas due to others being problematic

junglerboy16Apr 20, 20152 votes

it wasn't just a nerf to her AS, but also a nerf to how fast her passive could reactivate, which cut her mobility by about 20%, as well as the speed she can stack rend if she's constantly hopping.

XrusaApr 19, 201524 votes

Should really be a stack limit on monsters, plain and simple.

I am aware of the 250 stack limit. I am also aware that it's an idiotic limit that nobody would ever reach. Even if your auto attacks did only 50 damage each, 250 of them would still be 12.5k damage, which is enough on its own to kill a baron or dragon at most points in a game. Nobody is saying it's realistic, because it's definitely not. Monster stack limit should be at or below 10 to be any sort of reasonable.

SirsirApr 19, 201513 votes

There is! 254 :3

IcyPepperApr 20, 20155 votes

Vayne has one, btw...

GavranApr 20, 20153 votes

Yeah, health scaling true damage is totally the exact same thing.

IcyPepperApr 20, 201512 votes

She has a damage cap on her W passive. I'm agreeing with this dude, pointing out that Vayne's damage output is somewhat lowered against monsters with a true damage cap.

It's similar, not exactly the same, but that doesn't mean a comparison is a bad thing. Thanks for the sarcasm instead of critical thought, it really helps anyone get anything done when it comes to civil discussion.

TaarkiApr 20, 20156 votes

Varus has a 360 ish damage cap on his w also.

GavranApr 22, 20151 votes

Sorry I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you:

UNCAPPED HEALTH SCALING TRUE DAMAGE WOULD DO AN INSANE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE TO EPIC MONSTERS, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME

It isn't similar at all. Every Kalista AA does X bonus damage, this damage is represented by a stack. It is a fixed number, and a small fraction of an epic monster's total health.

Every Vayne AA does 0.33~~Y + 20 true damage, this damage takes effect on the third AA in each sequence. If it were not a fixed number, it would be 8% of an epic monster's total health. That's 2.66~~% + 20 per auto attack.

Now let's get some actual numbers:

Baron spawns with 10k health. That would put Vayne at 286.66~ True Damage per AA. This damage only increases (by 4.32 true damage/minute after baron spawns) as the game goes on and Baron gains more health.

Kalista's E adds 60 + .6 AD on the first spear, and 32 + 0.3 AD on each subsequent spear. This damage increases with her AD.

It should be obvious that the most AAs it could possibly take Vayne to kill Baron is 39. 3 AAs = 8% health, 37.5 AAs = 100% health.

Assuming a very generous 400 AD* (remember, we're calculating Vayne's damage at 20 minutes) Kalista's first spear will do 300 physical damage. Her subsequent spears will do 152 physical damage. In the 39 attacks it takes Vayne to do 10k true damage, Kalista will do only 6076 damage.

And ohhhhhh, wait that's just physical damage, isn't it? Yeahhhh it is. So let's see: Baron has 120 armor. 120 armor = 55% damage reduction. 100% - 55% = 45%, so Kalista will actually only do 45% of that leaving her at a grand total of: 2734.2 damage, or 70.1 per auto attack on average.

Soooo. 70.1 damage per AA with 400 AD for Kalista or 286.66~ damage per AA minimum for Vayne. I wonder which is better! CLEARLY Kalista needs to be capped, because Vayne is capped, it doesn't matter that Vayne would do 4 times as much damage if she wasn't!

And just for fun, Vayne's cap is 200 true damage, putting her at 66.66~ true damage per AA, a mere 4 damage less than our absurd 400 AD Kalista. That 4 damage being easily overtaken by the fact that that Tumble is an AA reset, (though there's a point where attack speed overtakes that if Vayne tumbles into the wall of the Baron pit that point is quite high).

Coincidentally you also entirely missed the point with your comparison, Vayne can't out smite anything. That's the "problem". I disagree that it's a problem, because it's okay if one champion makes one thing in the game harder to do, that's called diversity. (Harder - not impossible. Force her off Baron before it's low enough for her to finish it off. Alternatively don't let her AA baron the 15+ (15 at 400 AD) times it takes to do more damage than Smite in the first place. Maybe use some of your own abilities too, not just Smite.)

*Not one of these full builds reaches 400 AD, and most cap out at full build level 18 245 AD. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Kalista

TL;DR Yeah I was sarcastic and yeah I'm still being flippant because it's pointless to talk about balance when you can't even grasp that 8% max health/3 true damage is way the hell more than 32 + .3 AD physical damage without having it spelled out for you. Uncapped!Vayne would be four times more effective than Kalista. Do you get how huge that is? If all of Kalista's abilities were Rend, it would be equal to, not greater than Silver Bolts.

Slamurai JackApr 20, 201522 votes

If the enemy Kalista has managed to get the 15+ minimum spears that she needs to outdamage a Cho or Nunu, then you consider that drag or Baron already lost, namely due to your inability to get proper positioning on the objective. You shouldn't always have a chance to steal just because you're playing Nunu or Cho.

TTUPhoenixApr 20, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3htBGv5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-04-20T02:09:05.113+0000)

If the enemy has managed to get the 15+ minimum spears that she needs to outdamage a Cho or Nunu, then you consider that drag or Baron already lost, namely due to your inability to get proper positioning on the objective. You shouldn't always have a chance to steal just because you're playing Nunu or Cho.

There's a lot of junglers that can steal dragons effectively besides Nunu and Cho. Both Sejuani and Hecarim excel at it, due to the CC on their ult. You Arctic Assault/Onslaught of Shadows in, apply your CC, smite, then flash out (or die if your flash is down, but hey, you get drag or baron). Any jungler that can get in and out fast (such as Vi and Rek'Sai) can do it as well if you're fast on the smite and your timing is good. I've done it quite a few times, but against a Kalista, it's much more difficult, if not impossible. Once the enemy team gets ahead in drag control, it becomes nearly impossible to get it back.

DurzakaApr 20, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3htBGv5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-04-20T02:09:05.113+0000)

If the enemy has managed to get the 15+ minimum spears that she needs to outdamage a Cho or Nunu, then you consider that drag or Baron already lost, namely due to your inability to get proper positioning on the objective. You shouldn't always have a chance to steal just because you're playing Nunu or Cho.

Bullshit.

It is not difficult to get the required AAs to outdamage smite. Maybe it is a little harder to get to outdamaging Cho or Nunu, but they immobile, so that makes it easier.

Getting enough spears to outdamage smite is stupidly easy if your team starts the dragon. It basically means you can NEVER attempt to take a dragon they have started unless you know you can instantly delete the kalista.

PartholonianApr 20, 20158 votes

{quoted}

It is not difficult to get the required AAs to outdamage smite.

Sure, if you can sit in the pit for 10 seconds without getting killed or zoned.

Kalista can make it hard for one person to steal. But if you bring your whole team, she can't just sit there autoattacking dragon while a teamfight breaks out around her.

Ayame IsakiApr 20, 20158 votes

I would like to point out that most assassins could drop Kalista in time. Zed, Akali, Katarina, Talon, Yi, Shaco... all could do it. Two of those can even jungle and would have smite. I think that even an Irelia who has completed tri-force could do it too (the on hit speed buff and her Q would give her enough closing power to force Kalista to run or die). Trying to bring a tank/bruiser to a damage race is like brining a YJ to a formula one race; it may be awesome and fun but it is the wrong tool for the job. Kalista is a marksman; damage is her game.

And as Partholonian has pointed out, if you don't have an assassin send more than just the tank jungler. Worst case, let her have the dragon and take a tower or two.

Sinister AnubisApr 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Bullshit.

It is not difficult to get the required AAs to outdamage smite. Maybe it is a little harder to get to outdamaging Cho or Nunu, but they immobile, so that makes it easier.

Getting enough spears to outdamage smite is stupidly easy if your team starts the dragon. It basically means you can NEVER attempt to take a dragon they have started unless you know you can instantly delete the kalista.

If your team starts the dragon and there is a kalista then that means dragon was not warded properly and your team did not react to it fast enough how hard is it to zone kalista away from the objective she is stacking rend on. The answer not hard at all.

GavranApr 22, 20151 votes

Kalista's E adds 60 + .6 AD on the first spear, and 32 + 0.3 AD on each subsequent spear. This damage increases with her AD.

[...]

Assuming a very generous 400 AD* (remember, we're calculating Vayne's damage at 20 minutes) Kalista's first spear will do 300 physical damage. Her subsequent spears will do 152 physical damage.

Quoting myself here for the math.

Most full build Kalistas will actually have about 254 AD. Source: http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Kalista

With 254 instead of 400 AD, the first spear does 212 and the subsequent spears do 108 damage before armor. Baron's armor (120 = 55%) reduces that to 95 and 48 damage. With some basic rounding, it's pretty easy to see how many AA's it takes to out damage Smite. 1000 - AA#1 = 900 900/50 = 18 20 AAs, because I rounded up to 100 and 50. The 20th stack will be overkill, but is necessary to out damage Smite.

So, if both players are standing next to each other AAing Baron, and both have perfect timing, Kalista will win if she gets to do 20 uninterrupted AAs on Baron. However - in a real match, you have:

Your own champion's abilities and auto attack to add to your smite. I want to say Zac is the only champion who might go for a Baron steal who cannot do anything other than Smite it (the fly-over smite steal, of course. Even he is capable of jumping on Baron instead, in which case he gets to add %max health damage to his Smite.)
The element of surprise, putting the timing in your favor assuming equal skill at timing.
The ability to zone Kalista off of Baron for 4 seconds at any point before 20 stacks and ~1000 health remaining.

Is having two Smites OP? Is Malzahar's E doing more damage than Ignite OP? Nope they're all just abilities and trade-offs. Yes, Smite was the uncontested king of securing Epic monsters in the past, but now one ability in the game, under highly specific conditions, can out-do it. And that is fine.

someotheroneApr 20, 201513 votes

It seems like unnecessary, auxiliary power on her kit. I think Kalista's main strength should be her mobility, not smite-like abilities as well. She already has unparalleled mobility in the context of ADCs, I don't think she also needs high objective control as well.

KeevalroyApr 20, 201512 votes

Unparalleled mobility that doesn't even make sense with her theme. She's supposed to be a spirit of vengeance out to hunt betrayers, liars, etc...and it makes no thematic sense whatsoever to have her hop around all over the place like a kangaroo!

XyrneApr 20, 20153 votes

As much as I'm sure we'd all rather see her on a motorcycle, where is the rule that says spirits can't jump?

AnidanApr 20, 20153 votes

I think my main problem with it thematically is that she's a spirit of vengeance, anger and hatred. Wouldn't it make more sense for her jumps to be 25% more effective when chasing than when running away? That seems to go against her lore identity, even if it probably better in-game for her safety.

Despite the fact that in the lore she very clearly doesn't give one half of a toucan's egg about her own safety since she's an ethereal specter.

KeevalroyApr 20, 20155 votes

Wouldn't it make more sense for her jumps to be 25% more effective when chasing than when running away?

Please God no. No more jumping.

RasvApr 20, 20155 votes

He said "than when running away" because right now the jumps are more effective when you're running away. He wasn't talking about more jumping, he was talking about moving the bonus to chasing instead of to fleeing.

CastaneanApr 20, 20153 votes

Honestly, I don't think riot thought about it as thematical to her being a spirit of vengeance, but rather about her theme of being a spear-thrower. It's pretty common to use full-body motion to enhance attacks, and spears are absolutely included. In fact: Footwork is the most important thing for spear wielders. So looking at it like that, Kalista hopping about while throwing spears does kinda make sense.

Starcall CaseyApr 20, 201512 votes

Kalista is in a balanced state right now. if anything her passive got nerfed too hard and needs some compensation

Feel free to downvote my opinion.

XyrneApr 20, 20154 votes

Well, since I have your permission...

NarasimhaApr 19, 20159 votes

From what's been said, they don't really intend to. Not in the near future. And, to be fair, its not like they NEED to. The only way Kalista is doing that much damage is if she's been AAing the monster for atleast 10 seconds with high AS.

Tentacle LoveApr 20, 20159 votes

Why should Nunu or Cho'Gath arbitrarily be best at it? It's not a problem that there's a third person to secure objectives.

And before anyone downvotes me just because I'm not advocating for a Kalista nerf, what would be the point?

If they changed her so that rend had a cap, or did less damage, they'd boost her basic attack damage to compensate; Not that they'd even need to, because at that point Runaan's would no longer be her best in slot item and it would go back to being a worthless item that nobody ever used again. Everyone PLAYING kalista would be switching to add more attack damage and crit and less attack speed in their builds.

Honestly I don't see rend as a problem now because it's basically exactly the same as when you have jinx just AUTO the dragon or baron. If you want to contest the "smite," KILL HER. She's a freaking attack speed carry! She isn't even going to auto you to death without hitting rend and having ALL THOSE STACKS ON BARON/DRAGON FALL OFF!

If anything that change would end up being a net boost to Kalista because her stats wouldn't be held back by such a potent teamplay asset in her kit. There's no way that you can get what you want out of nerfing that part of her.

Dies to WolvesApr 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Love Tentacle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3htBGv5,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-04-20T04:58:18.325+0000)

Why should Nunu or Cho'Gath arbitrarily be best at it? It's not a problem that there's a third person to secure objectives.

And before anyone downvotes me just because I'm not advocating for a Kalista nerf, what would be the point?

If they changed her so that rend had a cap, or did less damage, they'd boost her basic attack damage to compensate; Not that they'd even need to, because at that point Runaan's would no longer be her best in slot item and it would go back to being a worthless item that nobody ever used again. Everyone PLAYING kalista would be switching to add more attack damage and crit and less attack speed in their builds.

Honestly I don't see rend as a problem now because it's basically exactly the same as when you have jinx just AUTO the dragon or baron. If you want to contest the "smite," KILL HER. She's a freaking attack speed carry! She isn't even going to auto you to death without hitting rend and having ALL THOSE STACKS ON BARON/DRAGON FALL OFF!

If anything that change would end up being a net boost to Kalista because her stats wouldn't be held back by such a potent teamplay asset in her kit. There's no way that you can get what you want out of nerfing that part of her.

what makes you think that riot necessarily has to boost her basic attack damage to compensate a limit to the max damage rend can deal to monsters?

Teridax68Apr 19, 20156 votes

Put another way, Rend allows Kalista to deal about 10 / 14 / 19 / 25 / 32 (+ 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% AD) bonus damage per autoattack, so technically if she has enough damage to kill a monster instantly, she already landed enough spears to "deserve" it. By contrast, Nunu and Chogath can deal their true damage instantly and on demand. As a jungler main, I'd be the first to admit how frustrating it is to get out- summoner 11 ed by a marksman, but I think a lot of it has more to do with the psychological factor (namely, how deceptive the Rend damage can be) than the actual power of the ability (she already landed that much damage, she's just cashing it in now).

coppinslingerApr 20, 20153 votes

The problem isn't that "she earned the damage" it's that she can cash it in on demand. It doesn't matter who does the most damage to neutral monsters, what matters is who KILLS the neutral monsters. That's what makes the burst so powerful, it complete nullifies the strategic burst that certain junglers/champions like Nunu and Cho have as part of their kit. It basically is a big "F U" to those champs as it says, "I get to do what you can do, but I just get to do it WAAAAAAAAAAY better." It doesn't help that her passive also nullifies melee champs without gap-closers/CC. Yeah other champions are pretty good at shutting down, Darius, Garen, Olaf and the like as well, but Kalista just brings it to a whole new level of disgusting.

ApolloclipticApr 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't that "she earned the damage" it's that she can cash it in on demand. It doesn't matter who does the most damage to neutral monsters, what matters is who KILLS the neutral monsters. That's what makes the burst so powerful, it complete nullifies the strategic burst that certain junglers/champions like Nunu and Cho have as part of their kit. It basically is a big "F U" to those champs as it says, "I get to do what you can do, but I just get to do it WAAAAAAAAAAY better." It doesn't help that her passive also nullifies melee champs without gap-closers/CC. Yeah other champions are pretty good at shutting down, Darius, Garen, Olaf and the like as well, but Kalista just brings it to a whole new level of disgusting.

It's not WAY better if it takes her 10+ seconds to trigger it, even late game when she can stack up quite a few in 3-5 seconds, a Cho or Nunu can flash burst, she can't, hers is not better pure and simple. It is actually weaker and takes longer, it's simply the fact that she CAN do it as an adc that is annoying, not how powerful it is, because as many have stated, it takes a shit load of stacks and perfect conditions for her to reach a damage on par with either of them. And if you flash smite a baron or dragon, but fail because Kalista used Rend first, then that's your bad timing, not her OP nature

You even say it yourself, she can "cash it on demand" but your forgot "after 5 or so seconds" unlike cho and nunu who actually CAN cash it on demand, as in, whenever the want, in an instant, no delay, you get what I'm saying?

Penta PenguinApr 20, 20156 votes

145 Attack Damage (Infinity Edge, BotRK, Last Whisper)

Rend at rank 5:

60 Base Damage + 87 ratio = 147

27 Per Stack + 39 ratio = 66

220 Baron Armor - 35% penetration = 143

147 Base Damage - 143 Adjusted Armor = 103

Your 2000 True Damage - 103 Base = 1897

66 Per Stack - 143 Adjusted Armor = 46

1897 Remaining True Damage to beat / 46 = 41 auto attacks (don't forget the first attack)

Kalista Base Attack Speed lvl 18 with Runes Masteries & Items = 1.73 Attacks per second

42 / 1.73 =

24 seconds attacking Baron

EDIT: About half this if her jungler is there at lvl 18, but keep reading

If Kalista got hit by Baron aka. Baron's Gaze, 50% damage reduction for 15 seconds, SHE NEEDS DOUBLE THE STACKS This includes any damage source from Baron hitting Kalista

At a certain pointt it doesn't even take this long to kill the baron without any Smite. By the time it's down to 2000 she only has stacks to beat Smite... just like Nunu and Cho'gath can
How many Kalista's do you play against that have actually done these calculations and know the number of stacks they need to outsmite you, let alone Nunoob or Cho'bad?
How many Kalista's do you play against that can coordinate with their jungler to actually synchronize their damage
HOW MANY KALISTA PLAYERS, LET ALONE ANY PLAYER KEEPS TRACK OF THIS INFORMATION PER LEVEL, PER ITEM PURCHASE, PER ETC. NOT JUST AT LVL 18 WITH FULL BUILD????

GengarApr 20, 20153 votes

Cool... Anyways she needs a nerf

Penta PenguinApr 20, 20153 votes

Cool... who do you play as in your challenger matches?

The best players this game has think she's one of the worst ADCs

God forbid Smite and Flash are ever challenged as constantly and 100% powerful

SexyTaylorSwiftApr 20, 20157 votes

I don't know, wasn't she picked/banned in like 30% of LCS matches? That would mean the BEST players in the game actually think she is pretty good....the best players don't pick someone they think is one of the worst ADCs.

Anyway, isn't she like the only champ that doesn't have a limit against monsters? I think that is the problem people have. If her specialty was that she had great objective control, then fine...but it isn't. It is just her "here is a random good thing that you are allowed to have since you are mobile" thingy.

Also, your math is wrong. You would need over 1,400 AP on Cho to do the 2k true damage that you used in your calculations lol...so, I think you should make that number more realistic and recalculate the time it would take. I know OP stated that, but just because someone else is dumb, doesn't mean you have to be dumb with them lol. Also, you are going to have >35% armor pene with masteries. No clue on attack speed since I don't have too much experience with her, but just making suggestions to make your post more accurate.

LeeDarkApr 20, 20153 votes

And yet they keep picking her when the FINALS are on the line.

MLDzXnRRRApr 20, 20155 votes

Buff Twitch or put a rend cap similar to his own

ShinjusukeApr 20, 20154 votes

Kalista has a lot of changes she needs.

Her E should have a stack limit on monsters (y'know, kinda how every other champion has a damage cap to monsters on their skills for a reason) and her E shouldn't slow (she's already un-catchable, she shouldn't get a free slow to catch you again if you escape her) are I think the biggest offenders. Once those are gone I think the majority of the hatred for the champion will dissipate. Till then, she's infuriating.

KeevalroyApr 20, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Kalista has a lot of changes she needs.

Her E should have a stack limit on monsters (y'know, kinda how every other champion has a damage cap to monsters on their skills for a reason) and her E shouldn't slow (she's already un-catchable, she shouldn't get a free slow to catch you again if you escape her) are I think the biggest offenders. Once those are gone I think the majority of the hatred for the champion will dissipate. Till then, she's infuriating.

She still hops. That's a problem.

LongHair FoxApr 20, 20154 votes

Riot has stated that one of the visions for kalista was the new interaction with objective control. It is not going unless you can give an argument that it is unhealthy.

Acidic PuddleApr 20, 20154 votes

She has to stack, a Nunu or Cho can just run in there, it is perfectly balanced...

ThryaleApr 20, 20152 votes

I think a lot of ppl are missing an important difference with all of these varus and vayne comparisons, and really any champ that (without a cap) could do extreme dmg to monsters: they all do %hp dmg. Kalista does not have %hp dmg, but instead does flat dmg. I have yet to see an instance where riot has put a cap on dmg to monsters due to that champ's flat dmg becoming too high. It has always been %hp dmg skills that receive these caps.

I also believe that giving a cap on kalista's rend would set a bad precedent for the game as far as game design is concerned.

I personally don't see the problem with a champ being able to have a unique niche like this. So what if she isn't a jungler? Just because you are capable of jungling doesn't mean you are the come all end all when it comes to taking jungle objectives. And heavy handing kalista to having a dmg/stack cap will just send the the message that the players are to be forced to play a certain way and deviation from that hard standard is to be mete with nerfs and stop-gaps.

KeevalroyApr 20, 20153 votes

I also believe that giving a cap on kalista's rend would set a bad precedent for the game as far as game design is concerned.

It can't be any worse than the precedent set that approves of Kalista's design, and includes her in the "healthy champion" category.

ThryaleApr 20, 20152 votes

not true. if riot were to increase the number of champs with features extremely similar to kalista's rend, she'd lose a huge chunk of what's unique about her. So the sheer fact that rend is part of kalista's identity, rather than just added fluff, is what will limit it's use in the future.

by contrast, removing and/or extremely limiting kalista's rend will not only greatly reduce how important it is to her identity, it will also leave the door wide open for other heavy handed nerfs to force certain play values onto the players.

FortnitePro2006Apr 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

not true. if riot were to increase the number of champs with features extremely similar to kalista's rend, she'd lose a huge chunk of what's unique about her. So the sheer fact that rend is part of kalista's identity, rather than just added fluff, is what will limit it's use in the future.

by contrast, removing and/or extremely limiting kalista's rend will not only greatly reduce how important it is to her identity, it will also leave the door wide open for other heavy handed nerfs to force certain play values onto the players.

Very well said.