Riot, have you ever considered removing it slightly reworking exhaust?

HateDaddy··7 votes·1,059 views

Before everyone screams OMG ZED ZED ZED ZED and spam downvote, please actually take the time to read..

Exhaust might be the second most powerful summoner spell in league of legends, we all know what numero uno is (rest in peace mordekaiser). It's arguable teleport is the second best and because it's seen more frequently if not more, you could easily say exhaust is the 3rd best summoner spell. But it's order of power compared to other spells isn't my point here because those other spells exist at a point where removing them would just make this game extremely broken.

Here's my issue with exhaust: I like that you have a spell that's committed to reducing the damage a champion does. But my goodness, 9/10 times, exhaust just ends up getting slapped on the closet melee champion and this is a big reason why damage oriented melees rarely see play. It's not because melee itemization sucks, ranged ADCs are abusing it right now. It's because one exhaust plus one cc basically shuts down a melee fighter based champion for an entire teamfight.

I wonder: has riot ever thought this was extremely unhealthy? Have they considered removing it? I think removing it is a stretch but certainly there has to have been a point where you guys have realized this spell is way too good at shutting down melee champions? i mean, look at what the hell it all does:

Effects Exhausts target enemy champion, reducing their movement speed and attack speed by 30%, their armor and magic resistance by 10, and their damage dealt by 40% for 2.5 seconds.

Ideally you'd think, this is a great anti carry spell but most of the time, ADCs never get in range of a champion holding onto exhaust and often, especially if the enemy team has a melee fighter, they just use it on the fighter or the AP mid laner to reduce their burst significantly.

Simply put, I believe exhaust is way too powerful and does way too much stuff. But it's still not even in the same universe as flash so how can you justify nerfing/removing it when flash exists? I don't think you can, despite what I said above.

I would propose make it only reduce melee champions damage by 30%, their MS and AS by 15% and id probably keep the flat reduction of armor and MR.

I guess that's all I got and because it didn't ask for thornmail to do true damage, to buff mages or make tanks more unkillable, it'll probably be downvote bombed without a single comment. But I'd like to be proven wrong just once in my life.

18 Comments

KillerKell4 votes

Exhaust is a Defensive Spell. It's not meant to slap on an ADC.

It's mean to counter being dove.

Now, CAN you use it on an ADC? Sure, absolutely. Use it on who ever you need to use it on. Use it on Garen if that is what it takes. But the INTENDED use is to try to negate Dives. It's the Anti-Assassin Spell, where Barrier is the Anti-Burst Spell.

It has a wonderful place in game, it's rather healthy.

If people are wasting it on the first Melee they see, they are using it wrong and opening themselves up to being dove by Burst Damages.

Also, there is Variety to Exhaust. Divers CAN use it. In fact, in many ways, Assassins SHOULD take it. But let's take people like Shen, Xin, Yi and Jax. They all have a Gap Closer and good Mobility. So you are saying Exhaust should be used on an ADC... well, here you go. Any of these guys can Flank, Dive the ADC... and Exhaust. The less Attack Speed and less Damage on Basic Attacks, the less Life Steal being returned to the ADC. This gives these guys the time to drop the HP without letting the ADC Sustain and turn the dive.

It's perfect against Yi, Zed, Xin, Jax, Udyr, Vayne, Katarina, Akali, Talon, LeBlanc... the list goes on and on. And if you put it on a Diver, yes, it's even great against those Carries.

Don't blame Exhaust because many aren't using it effectively. It's a great spell that needs nothing changed.

Rule 341 votes

{quoted}

Exhaust is a Defensive Spell. It's not meant to slap on an ADC.

It's mean to counter being dove.

No it isn't. That's one potential use of Exhaust, but it has numerous other uses, such as reducing enemy effectiveness in 1v1 duels, lowering the damage of an important member of the enemy team while diving in a teamfight, slowing a key member of the enemy team while your CC is down or so you can hit them with your CC easier, and many more.

Exhaust is almost as flexible as Flash is. Claiming it has a defined purpose is in itself severely limiting and shows that you, yourself, don't know how to use the spell effectively.

KillerKell1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rule 34,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3Hzbtno,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-06-06T21:08:44.349+0000)

No it isn't. That's one potential use of Exhaust, but it has numerous other uses, such as reducing enemy effectiveness in 1v1 duels, lowering the damage of an important member of the enemy team while diving in a teamfight, slowing a key member of the enemy team while your CC is down or so you can hit them with your CC easier, and many more.

Exhaust is almost as flexible as Flash is. Claiming it has a defined purpose is in itself severely limiting and shows that you, yourself, don't know how to use the spell effectively.

Right... if you lower enemy effectiveness in a 1v1 Duel by nerfing their Attack Speed, Damage and Move Speed... that's Defensive. The Spell is Defensive. The only Offensive capability it has is in the lowering of AR/MR, which is the weakest stats on the thing.

That doesn't mean you can use a Defensive Item to help you Offensively. Zhonya's is a Defense Item, but it can buy you those last few seconds of a CD to come out and finish a target off, giving you the Kill instead of them. Zhonya's, despite the AP, is considered a Defensive Item.

It's a Defensive Spell.

That being said, you are correct that there is a variety of play to it. For me, it's the #1 Best Spell in the entire Game.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Exhaust is a Defensive Spell. It's not meant to slap on an ADC.

It's a arguable that it's functionality makes it an offensive spell all the same. It's similar to flash in this regard but overall, it's versatile enough to do both.

It's mean to counter being dove.

I'd say flash is a better counter to being dove and I'd also point out that other champions exist and one cc alone typically nullifies a dive.

Now, CAN you use it on an ADC? Sure, absolutely. Use it on who ever you need to use it on. Use it on Garen if that is what it takes. But the INTENDED use is to try to negate Dives. It's the Anti-Assassin Spell, where Barrier is the Anti-Burst Spell.

It's not any more of an anti assassin spell than it is an anti burst Mage spell. You can exhaust Syndra and reduce her damage. The perspective that it's an anti assassin spell is foolish, it's too versatile to be labeled as being intended for one use. It excels at everything. Typically, it's best used against assassins but it's also best used against fighters and even burst champions.

It has a wonderful place in game, it's rather healthy.

That's debatable. I think it's existence is fine but it's way too good at shutting down melee champions.

If people are wasting it on the first Melee they see, they are using it wrong and opening themselves up to being dove by Burst Damages.

Except it's not being used wrong. The moment a Jax, Irelia, Xin, Nasus, etc get into the middle of your team and threaten your backline, one exhaust + one cc will shut them down. Making one champion completely useless is never a waste.

Also, there is Variety to Exhaust. Divers CAN use it. In fact, in many ways, Assassins SHOULD take it. But let's take people like Shen, Xin, Yi and Jax. They all have a Gap Closer and good Mobility. So you are saying Exhaust should be used on an ADC... well, here you go. Any of these guys can Flank, Dive the ADC... and Exhaust. The less Attack Speed and less Damage on Basic Attacks, the less Life Steal being returned to the ADC. This gives these guys the time to drop the HP without letting the ADC Sustain and turn the dive.

Top laners can't afford to not take TP and flash. Even if they have mobility, they're begging to be ganked. And while flanking is a good strategy and often the best way for a melee fighter to enter a teamfight, vision control shuts it down. So it's not something you can consistently do. That's not a bad thing but that's just how it is. And ranged ADCs also have flash/mobility and dedicated peel so simply exhausting a ranged ADC as a fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to cc.

It's perfect against Yi, Zed, Xin, Jax, Udyr, Vayne, Katarina, Akali, Talon, LeBlanc... the list goes on and on. And if you put it on a Diver, yes, it's even great against those Carries.

Half of it doesn't even work against Yi because of his ult + true damage. It's good against any burst champion or melee champion who attempt to get to a backline or even just beat up on front lines and most melee champions aren't afforded the luxury of taking it because they need flash, tp or ignite for lane phase.

Don't blame Exhaust because many aren't using it effectively. It's a great spell that needs nothing changed.

Most people use it correctly and you literally didn't address anything I said in how it's completely anti melee. And that's my biggest issue with it and the changes I proposed make it significantly less frustrating to play against as a melee.

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

It's a arguable that it's functionality makes it an offensive spell all the same. It's similar to flash in this regard but overall, it's versatile enough to do both.

KK: No, it's literally a Defensive Spell. It deals no Damage. It reduces Incoming Damage. It Slows. That's Utility/Defense all the way. Now, you can follow Exhaust up with Offense, but the Spell itself is Defensive. Which is why it's perfect for Diving Assassin, but has much greater use than just that.

I'd say flash is a better counter to being dove and I'd also point out that other champions exist and one cc alone typically nullifies a dive.

KK: You always take Flash. Obviously, we are talking your 2nd Spell. So vs. the other Spells. Also, Flash won't save you vs. Mao'kai or Zed.

It's not any more of an anti assassin spell than it is an anti burst Mage spell. You can exhaust Syndra and reduce her damage. The perspective that it's an anti assassin spell is foolish, it's too versatile to be labeled as being intended for one use. It excels at everything. Typically, it's best used against assassins but it's also best used against fighters and even burst champions.

KK: I never said it can't be used against Mages effectively. But it's considered Anti-Dive because those diving directly put themselves in Range for you to Exhaust and Counter. Hell, it can be EFFECTIVELY used against literally every Champion in the game.

That's debatable. I think it's existence is fine but it's way too good at shutting down melee champions.

KK: Not really. While it can help, it does little against a Shen or a Malphite or a Mao. You know, Tanks that don't rely on heavy damage that can survive the duration of the Spell.

Except it's not being used wrong. The moment a Jax, Irelia, Xin, Nasus, etc get into the middle of your team and threaten your backline, one exhaust + one cc will shut them down. Making one champion completely useless is never a waste.

KK: Okay, so then that's proper usage. What's the problem? But your point was it isn't used on Carries... I counter with the fact it IS used on Carries.

Top laners can't afford to not take TP and flash. Even if they have mobility, they're begging to be ganked. And while flanking is a good strategy and often the best way for a melee fighter to enter a teamfight, vision control shuts it down. So it's not something you can consistently do. That's not a bad thing but that's just how it is. And ranged ADCs also have flash/mobility and dedicated peel so simply exhausting a ranged ADC as a fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to cc.

KK: Plenty of Tops don't take TP. Most Non-Split Push Tops will skip TP. Then it depends on Kill Potential on if they go Ignite or Exhaust.

Half of it doesn't even work against Yi because of his ult + true damage. It's good against any burst champion or melee champion who attempt to get to a backline or even just beat up on front lines and most melee champions aren't afforded the luxury of taking it because they need flash, tp or ignite for lane phase.

KK: It still Slows, and lowers Attack Speed. Also, it's 40% of All Damage, so yeah, it nerfs the True Damage by 40%.

Most people use it correctly and you literally didn't address anything I said in how it's completely anti melee. And that's my biggest issue with it and the changes I proposed make it significantly less frustrating to play against as a melee.

KK: You are made it's used on Melee instead of Ranged Carries. But that isn't true. Depending on the situation, it's used on EVERYONE. The Tank crashing into the Front Line, the Assassin diving your Carry, the ADC that gets dove, the Mage that gets caught. It's used to Escape. It's used to Chase.

KK: Your contention is it doesn't get used the way you think it should, on Ranged Carries... but that's just so false as to be funny.

Athenes Lulu4 votes

People use it on melees? God, these guys are seriously missing out. People who have been accustomed to using exhaust knows to use it on the most annoying carry, and those who don't only think of it as a "hurr durr muh slowing spell xd!"

Anecdote aside, it's more of a matter of how people use it. If Riot still want it to remain as the "fuck you carries" button, then I suggest removing the slow. Or even 25% reduced effects when the champion is melee, though this might need very careful tweaking because using it on assassins is still, and will always, be a thing.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3Hzbtno,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-06T21:07:32.622+0000)

People use it on melees? God, these guys are seriously missing out. People who have been accustomed to using exhaust knows to use it on the most annoying carry, and those who don't only think of it as a "hurr durr muh slowing spell xd!"

You won't consistently be in range of an ADC to use it, especially as a support since you'll likely want to dedicate your positioning to peeling for your ADC.

Anecdote aside, it's more of a matter of how people use it. If Riot still want it to remain as the "fuck you carries" button, then I suggest removing the slow. Or even 25% reduced effects when the champion is melee, though this might need very careful tweaking because using it on assassins is still, and will always, be a thing.

You're right and that's why I don't want the damage reduction to be too have, 30% of a champions damage being reduced is still huge. But 40% is reducing nearly half a melee assassins (or champion in general) damage which is insane when you think about it.

I'm largely more focused on lowering its power of slowing melee champions MS/AS which make it an all around great spell.

HateDaddy1 votes

So for some reason I can't edit titles on mobile devices so at some point my auto correct said haha lol and got exhausted and screwed up the title

It = or

Sorry friends

Nyhver1 votes

You raise good points, +1 user Hatedaddy

Melee have that problem where they're easier to CC and exhaust due to their inherent positioning in team fights, they want to go on a squishy target and kill them- usually it's the carry. It's easier to exhaust and CC a zed that's going in than a Ziggs just throwing out bombs from afar

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You raise good points, +1 user Hatedaddy

Melee have that problem where they're easier to CC and exhaust due to their inherent positioning in team fights, they want to go on a squishy target and kill them- usually it's the carry. It's easier to exhaust and CC a zed that's going in than a Ziggs just throwing out bombs from afar

Right and once a melee is in the thick of things, exhaust makes it pretty assured it won't be getting out because the melees damage is reduced, his ms is reduced and his reductions are even slightly reduced. If you manage to exhaust a ranged champion, they'll likely just walk away and wait for the effects to wear off and simply re enter the fight.

The thing people don't understand, every cc spell in this game is anti melee because of melee champions positioning in fights. And people can hate on zed all they want, that's basically what a melee non tank champion needs to have in their kit to remain viable consistently. That should say something.

Candyxo1 votes

{quoted}

Right and once a melee is in the thick of things, exhaust makes it pretty assured it won't be getting out because the melees damage is reduced, his ms is reduced and his reductions are even slightly reduced. If you manage to exhaust a ranged champion, they'll likely just walk away and wait for the effects to wear off and simply re enter the fight.

The thing people don't understand, every cc spell in this game is anti melee because of melee champions positioning in fights. And people can hate on zed all they want, that's basically what a melee non tank champion needs to have in their kit to remain viable consistently. That should say something.

I personally wouldn't mind summoner 3 being replaced or changed, IF melee champions actually suffered from dmg reduction while being straight tank. Obvi not all are like that but having champions like Garen Darius Nautilus etc being able to have ONE dmg item then build all MR/Armor/Health and slaughter people then walk away without much of an issue, is insanely frustrating.

Then again, I'm still a bad player and have lots of learning to do.

When I use summoner 3 it's on Zed Katarina Yasuo ults, ADC's, and if necessary the fed Khazix jg.

If none of these champions are around or an issue, I place it on someone close for an easy kill. Though the only time I'm taking summoner 3 is when I'm supporting, otherwise summoner 14 mid and summoner 12 top. all paired w/ summoner 4

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

I personally wouldn't mind summoner 3 being replaced or changed, IF melee champions actually suffered from dmg reduction while being straight tank. Obvi not all are like that but having champions like Garen Darius Nautilus etc being able to have ONE dmg item then build all MR/Armor/Health and slaughter people then walk away without much of an issue, is insanely frustrating.

Then again, I'm still a bad player and have lots of learning to do.

When I use summoner 3 it's on Zed Katarina Yasuo ults, ADC's, and if necessary the fed Khazix jg.

If none of these champions are around or an issue, I place it on someone close for an easy kill. Though the only time I'm taking summoner 3 is when I'm supporting, otherwise summoner 14 mid and summoner 12 top. all paired w/ summoner 4

Low Kill Potential Champions should bring Exhaust or Heal.

Also insanely good on Shen despite his ability to 1v1 really well. Because he can Taunt and after Taunt can Exhaust if the Enemy is trying to delete a Carry he's Ulted to.

Ignite is better, but Exhaust isn't bad on Nasus either as he is often dove by Teams. Wither can only slow 1 to try to catch and finish, but with Exhaust you can either nerf the damage of the biggest threat and focus them, then wither who ever is trying to run. Just makes you even harder to kill when dove by a full team. It's good on Garen for the same reason, for that point in the game when they decide it takes 5 to kill you. Again, as far as Lane, Ignite is better, but for Team Fights or "Oh, Full Team Dive just for me?" Exhaust goes further.

NiamhNyx1 votes

Exhaust doesn't need to be changed. Lets say for a second a melee champ gets in range, they are going to wreck you, that's just how they are. So what if people are just throwing it out as fast as they can in a fight, its how they play. You need to adapt to different playstyles if it bugs you that much.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Exhaust doesn't need to be changed. Lets say for a second a melee champ gets in range, they are going to wreck you, that's just how they are. So what if people are just throwing it out as fast as they can in a fight, its how they play. You need to adapt to different playstyles if it bugs you that much.

No, that's literally not what happens at all against competent player. A melee champion gets in range of an enemy carry in a teamfight and they are perma cc'd/exhausted and killed. If you play to clean up with a melee champion, that's a different story but that makes the game significantly out of your control. And it's why tanks are played because they don't have to worry about either of these scenarios.

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

No, that's literally not what happens at all against competent player. A melee champion gets in range of an enemy carry in a teamfight and they are perma cc'd/exhausted and killed. If you play to clean up with a melee champion, that's a different story but that makes the game significantly out of your control. And it's why tanks are played because they don't have to worry about either of these scenarios.

So in this example, Exhaust is used to ensure some one doesn't break through the front line to sit on your ADC and kill them?

Umm... working as intended.

And you keep saying you can't consistently get in position to use it, and the Supports won't use it, on Carries. Why not?

My Leona, Braum and Thresh us it all the time on Marksman. Especially In Lane, but even in Team Fights. Mostly when I see there is no Assassins to save it for.

It really all comes down to Comps if a Support is sitting back to peel or engage the front line or flanking the carry.

There is nothing wrong with the Spell... there may be something wrong with how some use it, or at least 'less optimal'.

Assassin Dives? Works. You dive Carry? Works. Tank breaks through? Works.

I don't understand why you feel it's never used on Carries... this confuses me to no end because I PERSOANLLY USE IT on ADC all the time.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

So in this example, Exhaust is used to ensure some one doesn't break through the front line to sit on your ADC and kill them?

Umm... working as intended.

And you keep saying you can't consistently get in position to use it, and the Supports won't use it, on Carries. Why not?

My Leona, Braum and Thresh us it all the time on Marksman. Especially In Lane, but even in Team Fights. Mostly when I see there is no Assassins to save it for.

It really all comes down to Comps if a Support is sitting back to peel or engage the front line or flanking the carry.

There is nothing wrong with the Spell... there may be something wrong with how some use it, or at least 'less optimal'.

Assassin Dives? Works. You dive Carry? Works. Tank breaks through? Works.

I don't understand why you feel it's never used on Carries... this confuses me to no end because I PERSOANLLY USE IT on ADC all the time.

In most cases, my point is supports won't use it on carries. Leona is an exception because typically she looks to dive, although she can peel. Braum CAN use it, as can Thresh if he hooks an adc. In all of those situations, it's an offensive spell because you're diving them, not the other way around. And typically, supports will look to peel more than dive but you are correct, it comes down to comps.

I don't have a problem with the spell, I have a problem with the spell completely shutting down a farmed up, 4-5 item melee champion with the press of one button. It's too good at that, and because melee champions feel the brunt of everything much harder, irs why I've suggested it be less effective vs melee champions in some regard. Every cc spell in the game is anti melee, so they have enough to deal with.

As for your second post, you're absolutely right that it's used on everyone, I'm not disputing this. I'm simply saying its way more effective at shutting down melee champions than it is ranged champions and to me, that's a problem.

Kaisa is Hot1 votes

This is the BIGGEST problem I face whenever I play Akali. Fucking exhaust

SwiftKitten881 votes

lol, be happy it isn't stifle anymore...

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