RiotGypsy on Azir: so many wise words from design team member in single post that's hard to belive!

Zero Skill Tank··15 votes·1,853 views

Design rant incoming: These opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of our balance team. The problem with Azir is the fact that his kit has fundamental problems that we've yet to deal with. Remember old Tristana? W + Passive + R + Q created a hyper carry with insane range and peel who was virtually unassailable in the late game. Now take that kit and add: -Even more range -AoE at said range -An AoE knock-around that can be used at said range This is Azir's problem. When the character is at all viable he dominates the competitive mid lane because he brings most everything you could want from a mid laner. The AoE ranged waveclear and poke of a Ziggs, The safety of an Ahri, the wombo potential of an Annie, etc. This guy has everything. (Personal opinions to follow) While Shurima Shuffle is a cool play, I'd argue we were wrong to support it back when it was a considered a "bug." It conflicts too much with the strength/weakness profile the rest of his kit should have. Why does a guy with incredible range, damage, and safety also have AoE pick potential from that range? A success case against Azir should be to get him behind so he isn't a damage threat. Shurima Shuffle means this doesn't matter though because a losing Azir can still get your entire team killed if he has a team that's doing well enough to follow up. What do you do when an Azir who's doing decently is besieging your tower? You can't engage cause he'll escape (probably back to the tower he created), you can't defend cause he'll clear the wave and poke you out, and if anyone on your team was foolish enough to take a slightly immobile character then you can't even stay at the tower because he has a longer range and easier to execute Lee Sin R for your entire team. I imagine to get Azir into an actually good spot without a large scope rework we're going to have to do one of two things. We either support his ranged hyper-carrying by removing Shurima Shuffle (Can't cast Q while dashing). Or we support Shurima Shuffle by giving him a significant range nerf and increased tankiness/other things (make him a mid-range battle mage). I think it's 100% possible to get a well balanced Azir that's strong, fun to play, and doesn't need to be perma-ban/pick in competitive. Just feels like we'd have to make some hard to swallow changes to get there.

54 Comments

Erockandroll10 votes

probably the Battle mage option, given that his Range, can be a problem on someone designed for DPS.

I doubt they would remove the shurima shuffle. It's become too much a part of him. Also, it's play making potential that isn't a stats check. So it's not really oppressive when ahead or useless when behind.

Another reason for a range nerf would probably be his interaction with Crystal scepter. With his range, paired with that item, it's becomes pretty difficult to try and out play his zoning attempts.

Ralanr4 votes

Plus a battle Mage makes sense with his character. He's an emperor who controls his soldiers on the field of battle.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

So it's not really oppressive when ahead

Totally false. It makes it virtually impossible to shut him down even if he massively screws up his position.

Ralanr1 votes

When it's off cooldown anyway.

WoonStruck1 votes

That would be his ultimate without any additional mechanics...not the Shurima Shuffle.

Please, you show you don't know what you're talking about in the majority of threads.

Try to put thought into all of your posts, not just 10%.

DeathBurst3 votes

That makes sense, but I'd like to have an AP-marksman kind of champ, that would be original and interesting, and that's what Azir could become if they focused on the ranged DPS instead of the mid-range Battlemage.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Take my upvote and agreement. Azir's original design, as I said in my post, was as a DPS-focused AP-marksman with anti-initiation tools that was weak to burst and proper counter-positioning. We have other Battle Mages that offer powerful initiation tools- Brand and Kennen come to mind with their ultimates. Brand doesn't bring hard-CC with his I know, but it's a great way to make the enemy team scatter and panic.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Cassiopeia ...

DeathBurst2 votes

Sure, Cass is another possibility, but I feel like she's more level-dependent than Azir, so she doesn't want to share XP with a Support. May be wrong, though.

Anyway, we can have two. There are already a lot more than 2 Battlemages.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Azirs W damage scales with nothing but his level and ap, he needs level 18 to get full damage, and level 13 to have his soldiers and Q on low cd and the full bonus as from W. Cassio reaches most of her dps potential at lvl 9 if she maxes E first. She's not very level dependend, but very item dependend, which is prettymuch the adc profile.

Anyway, we can have two. There are already a lot more than 2 Battlemages.

"to have an AP-marksman kind of champ,** that would be Original **"

DeathBurst2 votes

Well, I stand corrected about Cass, but I also stand by my original statement.

Cass could be played as a Marksman, but she isn't right now. She also has to hit skill shots to unlock her full damage potential, while Azir, and most "true" marksfolk, just have to right click.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Azir isn't played as marksman either. And he also needs to keep his soldiers at the right position to ulock his damage. Also, his damage beeing mostly rightclicking is what causes major balance issues with his dps style. The combination of his range and point n click dps leaves his opponents with not much options.

DeathBurst2 votes

Of course Azir isn't yet, the point of this thread was to say he should be reworked into either a proper long-range DPS OR a mid-range Battlemage, that he couldn't keep the best of both world.

To which I replied that I would prefer the first option.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i highly doubt that the longranged dps rework would result in him beeing played botlane...

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Mordekaiser They've forced weirder things.

Jeddy0178 votes

He's right, in order for Azir to get into a balanced stated where he isn't perma-ban/pick in competitive, some drastic changes to his play styles are needed. It would likely piss off a number of Azir players, but it would be necessary for Azir's long term game health & to get him out of nerf city (he's a permanent resident there).

Though if they go for the Battle Mage option where he has less range & more tankiness/defenses, then he would likely be played top lane more. Maybe even Jungle depending on how he is changed. Let's be honest here, they're not removing the Shuriman Shuffle. When has Riot ever changed or got rid of anything that allowed #LC$BIGPLAY$?

This is just my thought on if they go for one of the options Gypsy listed. They could very well go a different route like just straight up reworking the guy.

Marshbouy4 votes

Inb4 you and the RIOT balance team get called a salty azir hater.

This is what i try to tell people, right here. I can't word it the same way as Gypsy in my tiny, silver5 mind. I tell people that he has too much in his kit and they just call me a hater and leave.

BloodyTompon3 votes

I don't know what their name is, but there is somebody that does this to every single thread. I give it another 5 hours.

Marshbouy3 votes

his name is akatsuki deidra. (or something very close to that) im 95% sure he is a troll

Marshbouy3 votes

here he is !

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

{quoted}

here he is !

Nice liar is here too.

Ryze main? Azir main? Cait main?

Which?

Marshbouy3 votes

The liar who happens to agree with riot gypsy. k sweet

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

{quoted}

The liar who happens to agree with riot gypsy. k sweet

Ryze, Azir or Cait main? Which? Honest guy?

Marshbouy4 votes

you are making no sense

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

{quoted}

you are making no sense

Yes, true you can not say because Azir hater.

Marshbouy5 votes

that made even less.

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

{quoted}

that made even less.

So you're liar.

BloodyTompon1 votes

I thought the same thing haha

AcidTheWarlock4 votes

Azir would be fun as a tankier mid-range mage, using the soldiers in conjunction with his own abilities.

More of a general than an emperor.

DrugsForRobots3 votes

Link for reference?

Jeddy0171 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4tf4jl/lets_talk_azir/d5h37dt

There you go, just had to search up Riot Gypsy's name on reddit.

SkyblazeHydraX33 votes

Honestly, I would prefer seeing the Shuriman Shuffle removed (BRING THE HATE!!). Besides the fact that there's no indication in his kit that it's possible and thus requires second-hand information, in order to balance around it Riot has to take away from Azir's original intended niche and role.

Azir is supposed to be an Emperor, and his niche is supposed to be "APC Marksman"; a mage who deals sustained damage at range via attack speed like a Marksman, with a unique build path to reflect that.

He doesn't dirty his hands fighting personally- no, he's too good for that and no opponent is worth his time. Instead he uses his immense magical power and tactical brilliance to create and control soldiers that carry out his will and strike down his enemies for him.

And whenever an opponent would dare to get close to Shurima's Emperor or those he deems his allies, he rebuffs their futile charge with a barricade of shield warriors that block off their attack.

THAT was what Azir was created to be; a long-range mage that brings sustained damage and powerful anti-initiation tools to his team, that suffers for improper positioning and use of his soldiers. He was NOT created to be a tanky mid-ranged battle mage that brings a powerful AoE initiation to his team with a versatile multi-angled dash to save him from deep dives or give him overwhelming mobility.

Azir is an EMPEROR, not a warrior or battle mage. If people want a tanky mid-ranged battle mage with a strong initiation, pick someone like Brand or Swain or Kennen. Hell, maybe Azir could be given the knockup back on his E, or compensatory buffs to make him fun and flashy without relying on such an overpowering combo.

So yes, I agree with Riot Gypsy; balancing around the Shuriman Shuffle is counter-intuitive, and I would rather see it removed and Azir returned to the long-ranged commander he was designed to be. I don't know about you guys, but I was able to scrape by for the longest time without using the Shuriman Shuffle until Riot was forced to make it essential on him. I won't deny that it's cool to use and exciting when done right, but I'd be fine with losing it. I don't want to see what happened to Alistar happen to Azir; a bug being turned into a feature that's so powerful the champion has to be balanced around it at the cost of their original niche and design intent.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

This.

When I play Azir I want to be a Shuriman Emperor who messes people up from afar with my sand army.

I don't want to get close to my enemy. While the Shurima Shuffle is pretty cool, it forces Azir to jump to the front lines where he doesn't belong.

If Riot reworked him to an extent to give him the feel of a long range commander, I would love Azir even more.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I don't think they even need to rework him. Just remove the Shuriman Shuffle, then compensate for the removal and the prior nerfs they had done to balance it.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think the same still applies to lee. Befor wardsteps, ganking required either coordination with the laner or landing Q(usually both), and getting to the backline in a teamfight was actually hard. But with wardsteps, he just has either easy gank paths or just walks up to you and steps in your face for an easy E slow with Q followup. Befor the wardstep became a thing, lee was seen relatively balanced, and since then he has recived imense amounts of nerfs and always stayed rather relevant because his damage+mobillity always makes for godlike early jungle when he's viable at all, and the cc on ult+mobillity alow him to always be atleast decent in the late(ofc asumeing he's played well)

Sometimes something beeing cool is not a valid reason to keep it...

As for azir i feel the battle mage with shuffel(and probably his old knoc-kup back) is more compelling gameplay wise and overall easier to balance, but the longranged dps mage is thematicall more fitting, as an emperor usually would not dive into the frontlines but rather comand his soldiers from afar.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

an emperor usually would not dive into the frontlines but rather comand his soldiers from afar.

Unless he's a badass emperor.

FioraWillCarry2 votes

If they remove his Shuriman shuffle I'm never playing him again. I prefer the range nerfs.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Funny thing is, that despite knowing it all, they still haven't done a jack about it, instead prefer to gut parts of his kit, that have no direct correlation with problems described.

It's not wise, OP.

That's a typical Riot behavior for you.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

These are Gypsy's opinions, with no reflection on the actions or decisions of the Balance Team as a whole. And while we may agree with Gypsy, decisions like this would require time, discussion, experimenting, and playtesting. In the mean-time with Worlds on the horizon they have to deal with balance outliers- which Azir is, with his immense versatility.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Like a whole year without a change, except for bug fixes, for example?

Sure, they had no second thoughts about removing Karma's shield bomb for no reason. Why would fixing a champion that has actual reasons for being a prime candidate for a rework, requires that much time?

Don't be naive.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=niE33EMJ,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-07-19T22:46:34.812+0000)

Like a whole year without a change, except for bug fixes, for example?

Except that just a few patches ago he got some nerfs, and he got some nerfs this very patch.

Make sure to double-check your information, lest your credibility drops like Pantheon.

Vistha Kai2 votes

I see, you simply MUST be blunt, talking with certain people.

Let me educate you on the subject, you think you know and I don't.

Patch: 6.11 Date: June 1st 2016 Changes: Arise's tower "smite" removed, Emperor's Divide's duration reduced, movement speed boost removed.

Fast forward to:

Patch: 5.14 Date: July 22nd 2015 Changes: Shurima's Legacy's CDR to AS removed, Arise now passively gives AS for leveling, Shifting Sands no longer knocks up champions.

In the meantime: Over 30 bugfixes and a couple of QoL changes of various sizes.

Nearly 11 months. I might've exaggerated slightly, but that's still a year in most people's books.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

So that's what you meant. I thought you meant in the last year, not a year long period of time.

As for the lack of changes, it was more than likely due to the menagerie of bugs Azir suffered from in tandem with his incredibly steep learning curve. That's not even taking into account the almost year-long period of changes that happened around Azir, to other champions and the items he and they use and the indirect effects.

redfeenix1 votes

Hmm so you think we lower the damage numbers or modify his abilities to provide less utility.

Poske1 votes

Can someone link me a thread where he said that?

I SUGGEST OPTION 3

NERF HIS DAMAGE

Its just off the charts. OFF THE GODAMN Charts and he ll be fine then

Jeddy0171 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4tf4jl/lets_talk_azir/d5h37dt

There you go, just had to search Riot Gypsy's name on Reddit.

SnowLeopard911 votes

Excellent points here. I just got done commenting on a post complaining about how Azir is weak in solo queue and about how that is fine because he's absurd when you master him, but RiotGypsy's first possible change seems to address all of Azir's problems. If you remove the Shurima Shuffle and balance around him for ranged hypercarry, he is now vulnerable enough to be countered and thus won't see as much pro play and can be buffed a bit for solo play. I'm not as fond of leaving the Shuffle in place and balancing him as a tanky battle mage, because that seems like it will weaken him in solo queue AND professional play, which addresses only one of the two problems while making the other worse.

Vekkna1 votes

Honestly, the Shurima Shuffle would have been an awesome concept for Taliyah. If they remove it, it would still be a pretty cool mechanic on a pure support or utility battlemage jungler.

RedHeadTed691 votes

...and if his ultimate was changed altogether?

"Hello I'm a moderator for the /r/azirmains and I'm sitting in D3 elo having 900,000 mastery points on Azir. My personal opinion is yes, he has mobility he shouldn't really have. I'd much rather have his E be just a shield just much stronger than it currently is. Something like Diana's shield. Make Q CD like half of what it is now but take away all its damage. The ult is kinda awkward it just blocks off anyone who tries to take advantage of Azir in a moment of weakness. I'd rather have a standard mid lane ultimate that makes him more powerful. For example maybe you activate this ulti and his soldiers get a boost in damage, and it automatically summons 3-4 soldiers. Like he uses all his power to summon up a small army from shurima as a last resort. I think this better fits Azirs lore instead of just summoning a wall that knocks back enemies. This eliminates him from being able to w, e, q over walls, cockblocking any champion that actually gets on top of him, and makes him more healthy overall in my opinion. He's a late game DPS mage, so give him a ulti that isn't just self peel and boosts his DPS, remove his mobility and remove the unneeded poke from Q."

In the same thread, LordAzir proposed a few changes, but the one that started quite a long discussion was the idea of changing his ultimate. I say that's worth considering.

Veraska1 votes

Remove Azir's E! it fixes his shuriman shuffle problem, it increases his weakness (vulnerable up close) and he can still keep the aoe knock back play (it'd just be tied to flash instead of his E)

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