"the pace of the game is perfectly fine"-riot Sotere

Ahristocats·Jan 2, 2017·47 votes·6,862 views

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/3001056747/23030943?tab=overview http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/3000448615/23030943

18 minutes games, 18 fucking minutes the game is already over. Are you kidding me friend? Rest in piece the game that i enjoyed the much, the game where i could show my skilll in mid game as a support BECAUSE THERE IS NO LONGER FUCKING MID GAME, there isn't "good call, win game" or "good warding, win game" there is:

-push as 5 at 10 min and go straight to the nexus because towers falls in 10 seconds aka in one wave

you think i'm trolling?

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/3000557333/23030943

only game out of my last 10 games that lasted more than 25 min the others were just 18 min games, or ff at 20 min, or 22/25 min games. In high diamond/master MMR games are just decided at 10 min by the first team that got 2 kills bot+first tower after a 4 man gank bot lane.

Baron is worthless since games end before it spawns Infernal drake is a fucking cancer piece of shit design that should never have happened

69 Comments

RiotRiot SotereJan 2, 201744 votes

I don't think I said it's perfectly fine. We continue to evaluate pacing after every early season patch. In addition to greater than usual change, the MMR of games isn't quite as tight because people haven't settled. This often leads to the feeling of more wonky games. Sometimes even shorter ones.

In the first game you posted, the enemy team had a Veigar and a Vayne. They were banking on making a long game. They didn't get there, and lost. There's value in being able to stop hyperscalers by ending games. There's also value in games coming to an end when they're clearly out of hand and people just want them to be over (generally the people losing).

Picking and choosing small samples of data can also lead to a very skewed picture. Over your ten games on January 1 (per euw.op.gg, not sure if their date/timing is right), your average game time was 30 minutes. Over your last ten ranked games that I see you have a 35, 26, 30, and 25 minute game, though on a whole they do seem fast! You're also climbing rapidly: you were Gold last season and now are D4. You're doing suspiciously well and playing early game champions for the most part. If the system doesn't know your actual MMR you will tend to get more skewed games.

DreadlocksJan 2, 20175 votes

You're also climbing rapidly: you were Gold last season and now are D4. You're doing suspiciously well and playing early game champions for the most part.

Ban Hammer!!!

SlytherinUmbreonJan 3, 20174 votes

you forgot to Poppy

AhristocatsJan 2, 201712 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=neRQyhto,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:32:10.622+0000)

You're doing suspiciously well and playing early game champions for the most part. If the system doesn't know your actual MMR you will tend to get more skewed games.

it's almost as if i weren't diamond in season 3 i was gold last season because i didn't want to play with dynamic queue i can show you previous threads that i did in season 6 on it, as well threads where i said i didn't play the game between season 4 and 5

i eternally thank riot for putting back solo queue, it just gives me the fun i had in season 2/ season 3

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=neRQyhto,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:32:10.622+0000) Picking and choosing small samples of data can also lead to a very skewed picture. Over your ten games on January 1 (per euw.op.gg, not sure if their date/timing is right), your average game time was 30 minutes. Over your last ten ranked games that I see you have a 35, 26, 30, and 25 minute game, though on a whole they do seem fast! You're also climbing rapidly:

i'm actually surprised that you decided to reply so i'll say thank you i didn't know i would attract your attention

what's the data of riot on game length? my games are low sample, so i wonder what your big sample says

honest question

Xela SyabJan 3, 20172 votes

it also seems like the examples you posted had worse feeders and trolls than bronze games. :/ the climb doesn't seem so good now does it.

LordGeovanniJan 3, 20173 votes

in my experience people on teams that dont steam roll the enemy often start intentionally feeding to get their allies to surrender at 20 and people who dont realize that after their 3rd death their feeding doesnt even give much gold anymore go with it and surrender it works so why would people stop doing it.

Xela SyabJan 4, 20171 votes

Game is revolved around skill though, if atleast 1 lane or jungle is ahead then there's a chance to win. I've been kinda frustrated when I see my whole team behind on cs with no jungle presence and map control and I wonder "what happened?"

LordGeovanniJan 4, 20171 votes

your team doesnt need to be ahead realisticly you dont even need to be even just realise that when you are falling behind people need to group and push a lane even if its early. some people do this but make the mistake of pushing mid where top can teleport jungle is guarenteed to be near and bot can walk there in little time the best lane to push 5 man to get back into the game is top lane where the teleport is so he doesnt use it to teleport and even up numbers its likely that jungler is on the other side of the map and only mid or jungler can make it in time to contest and even they they are still down 2 men. and the other mistake people make is danceing around the tower and letting the enemy have time to come and reinforce the 5 man lane you out number the enemy force the tower preferably not try to poke the enemy but focus the tower and only focus the enemy if a melee champion jumps on one of your melee champions if a ranged champion starts hitting the melee champions the melee champions can drop back but ranged carries should not back off immediately (which they do in 90% of cases) they should finish the tower and watch for allied melee champions going back in to engage on the pokeing enemy so that they can help once tower agro is drawn

LatetotheRaceJan 3, 20174 votes

This season is atrocious in that aspect. There are maybe 1-7/8 games that are legitimately fair. The others are just disgusting 1 sided steam rolls.

NightmareAmazoXJan 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=neRQyhto,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:32:10.622+0000)

You're doing suspiciously well

HAHAHAH. DR SONA X RUBICK, Hope your account doesn't suddenly get perma banned since Riot Games have the tendency to sudddenly ban people.

FaieJan 3, 20175 votes

Riot never "suddenly" perma's people. The people that get perma'd always deserve it 99.9% of the time.

Sraeg2013Jan 3, 20174 votes

>Always >99.9%

Pick one. You can't have both.

LordGeovanniJan 4, 20171 votes

Cause he can swear for a company in multiple reigons and languages. Deserve is a tricky word because riots rules are worded so that they can ban you if they feel that the day is too wet.

Sraeg2013Jan 4, 20171 votes

Exactly.

This isn't criminal law. They can ban you on a whim for no actual reason.

LordGeovanniJan 3, 201712 votes

Implying veigar and vayne are 'BAD' early because they are god like later. Maybe if they didn't get compensation after compensation for being not as good as other characters when they are supposed to be bad.

MirkhailJan 3, 20172 votes

Veigar early game is bad, after 6 he can do something.

dominusxJan 3, 20173 votes

you hit lvl 6 in like 7mins please. i can be lvl 6 by 5.30 as a jungler if i power farm it.

LordGeovanniJan 4, 20171 votes

Veigar is bad in the sense that he can chunk his opponents early but cant confirm the kill compared to his late game self but you can either force your enemy out of lane or force them to cant farm much if at all while waiting for 6 all the while getting free ap for your higher scaleing spells than the average mage so even though he scales ap infnitely through out the game every ap ads 1-3 damage to his spells for the next time around compared to most mages that need like 3-4ap per 1 damage. adcs and and veigar being bad are only bad in that same one way where they can touch people from far but if the enemy run away as soon as the fight start even if you take 80% of their ap you cant finish them off. (unless you have a targeted nuke a that also does more damage for exicutions or cross map nukes. veigar is definitely meant to be weak for more than just the first 6 mins of the game in design but balance doesnt reflect it

MirkhailJan 4, 20171 votes

Veigar can force only stupid people out of lane, his q is stopped by minions, if you are hitted by his w you deserve to loose and he have an unreliable stun. Also he usually use q to stack ap that mean veigar can't trade often if he want to farm and his waveclear is subpar since his w it's maxed last and you don't have a lot of bonus ap early game.

LordGeovanniJan 5, 20172 votes

veigar used to have to farm to get any damage but now he gets ap for just touching an enemy q goes through a minions and veigars 'counters' are melee assassins. You can dodge veigars damage yes but to do so you take so much time and lose the ability to farm too while every minion he other minion he kills and every spell that sucessfully touches you not only damages you but adds 2-3 damage to his next spell. veigar now looks for fights more than farming because he doesnt need to farm he just needs to make sure the enemy does a poor job at farming

MirkhailJan 5, 20171 votes

Veigar "poke" is bad, his q only pass 1 minion and to get ap he have to kill then, how many times are you hit by a lux q in lane? You don't even have to dodge veigar poke, he will rarely be able to q you and his w have a very long delay and a small hit zone. Veigar counter are not only assassin but most mages can easily beat veigar in 1v1, he does not have a reliable cc to hit his combo and his low range (especially his ult) force him to do pedictable movement and that allows the other mages to burst him down thanks to their more relaiable CC. Veigar only get 1 ap that mean 0,6 more damage for his q, 1 for his w and 0,75 to 1,5 for his r. Veigar mymu surely encourage veigar to try and fight/poke but is bad early game make it difficult to win trades and so he still mostly farm while trying to get some q poke when he can, only when veigar q was targeted he preferred fighting over farming. Veigar strength are in teamfights and late game scaling when he can easily oneshot with q/r and his q/w will deal a lot of damage.

LordGeovanniJan 7, 20171 votes

what if his q only passes one minion walk up and make the enemy walk out of lane. the reason veigars w hits is that he puts up e before casting it so you ether walk into the e and get free stun and ap or dont take the stun but free damage and if you get stunned free q damage veigar can force trades and even if you can poke him back he still wins because he is getting free ap out of every trade every other trade is a free 435 gold item 1052

MirkhailJan 7, 20171 votes

How can veigar walk up to you past your minions and with his q that don't even do much damage early and force you out of lane? Even bots wouldn't loose to that. And his w is smaller then his e, you can avoid both his stun and w damage,without mentioning the mana cost and the long cooldown. Veigar is very strong mid-late game and i could understand someone complaining about that but believing veigar is a lane bully is too much.

LordGeovanniJan 7, 20171 votes

veigar has high base damage from 1 level in his abilities but i didnt say he was a lane bully i said that every ap he gets from farming or pokeing (if you never get touched by veigars spells good for you) puts 2-3 damage on his spells) early game that adds up real fast.with out even getting items his damage just through qap scaleing and his passive is scaleing harder than most champions health per level thats not takeing into account ap from items ap per level from the champion itself or skills base damage.

Synnx7Jan 3, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=neRQyhto,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:32:10.622+0000)

I don't think I said it's perfectly fine. We continue to evaluate pacing after every early season patch. In addition to greater than usual change, the MMR of games isn't quite as tight because people haven't settled. This often leads to the feeling of more wonky games. Sometimes even shorter ones.

In the first game you posted, the enemy team had a Veigar and a Vayne. They were banking on making a long game. They didn't get there, and lost. There's value in being able to stop hyperscalers by ending games. There's also value in games coming to an end when they're clearly out of hand and people just want them to be over (generally the people losing).

Picking and choosing small samples of data can also lead to a very skewed picture. Over your ten games on January 1 (per euw.op.gg, not sure if their date/timing is right), your average game time was 30 minutes. Over your last ten ranked games that I see you have a 35, 26, 30, and 25 minute game, though on a whole they do seem fast! You're also climbing rapidly: you were Gold last season and now are D4. You're doing suspiciously well and playing early game champions for the most part. If the system doesn't know your actual MMR you will tend to get more skewed games.

You fucked up the game season by season and this season is the WORST, not even compareable to season 6. All the changes for the sake of change ( altho u admit its not like that but it is ! ) , and for ur boring LC$ And that guy doing suspiciously well ? Im bronze 2 on this. My main was a plat 3. Do u think i care anymore about climbing and putting up with the diseases i got in bronze way way back then ? no

EyesOfTheFoxJan 3, 20175 votes

Sounds like you wouldn't want to pick late game champs at all if you can just pick early game champs and snowball to a 20-30 minute victory.

Earl EulrichJan 3, 20178 votes

well, according to leagueofgraphs every elo better than bronze closes games in less than 30min, up to an average gametime of ~25:40 in challenger ...that´s not even 6min after you´d be allowed to surrender, which in S2 marked the point when laning ended and midgame started for the most part. Now there´s just not much game outside the laning phase - it´s win lane and then close out for players that somwhat understand how to close out a lead.

So for many players you spent the last two years killing the actual fun part of the game where makro-play is in full effect and you really needed to work together as a team and strategize to win a game...which also made every game feel different as there had been so much stuff going on lategame, and there really were lots of different comps. In the last year of proplay i´ve rarly even heard someone analysing the teamcomp of any team as as a poke or dive or protect or anything-comp - as no team cared at all, they just picked the strongest meta champs and fr the most part early game powerhouses and strong laners. That´s all the strategy they had.

So well, the game really is in a sad state for about anyone that fell in love with it during S1-3.

doublelift fgJan 3, 20174 votes

nice one

AMYS GRAVEJan 3, 20174 votes

Nami in BushJan 3, 20175 votes

Junglers are higher level than laners and dive at lvl 3
Towers do 0 dmg and die instantly
Towers now give bonus gold, which only encourages this shit
These new items give me stage 4 diabetes leukemia

I am literally being dove by Ezreal and Karma at lvl 2 without their jungler. No, I'm not bronze or shit tier, I was D5 last season. I can get hit by 1 ability and now I'm fucked and lose my tower at lvl 5 + lose 3+ waves of minions, dragon, and first tower gold. This doesn't rely on me doing some Faker play, this relies upon the other team **SERIOUSLY **fucking up. I've never seen as many games ending before 20 as this season.

Matchmaking is so... so... sooo shitty I cannot put it into words. I have Silver 4's on my team while I vs Plat 1's. What the fuck?????????????? They play like shit and feed bot lane so I could just say gg at 5 min because bot lane already has a 3k gold advantage by 7 minutes.

Seems the only way to win is to play cheesy stupid shit that isnt fun like Evelynn Twitch Camille Zac Tryndamere Kayle Annie

Just dumpster all the champs that require use of a fucking brain because bronzies get stomped by them.

I cannot continue to play this game at this rate. I want S4/S3 back. This isn't even league, it's just fucking cancer.

Rework every single champ in the game into cancer, rework classes into cancer, rework items into cancer. Like **WHO ** the FUCK said "let's give item 3085 CRIT. Then let's add some champion that's "UNIQUE" by putting in broken shit like a box you cannot fucking escape. It's UNIQUE? Right???? RIGHT???? Such a fucking joke. I can list off 25 champs off the top of my head that require perm ban for being cancer or for being broken as fuck. Caitlyn is the highest offender and no nerfs in sight.

Fuck this game till you all get your shit together. Waste of my time. Not competitive, not fun. Every corner it's been shit since mid-season S5, and allot of people feel the same.

I'll check back in at mid-season, if the game's not fixed by then, then fuck it. Too much stress I don't need.

iTaLenTZJan 4, 20171 votes

Fuck this game till you all get your shit together. Waste of my time. Not competitive, not fun. Every corner it's been shit since mid-season S5, and allot of people feel the same.>

Totally Agree. Ever since Sated Devourer got introduced mid-season 5 the game has gone downhill. Last season was the worst ever and all my friends quit and they aren't coming back. Honestly it is time for Meddler, Ghostcrawler, Repertoire and Socrates to fucking leave already

Nami in BushJan 4, 20174 votes

They need to go back to what made the game actually fucking good. Nobody asked for a inescapable box of retardation. I remember when Draven came out, that was the coolest shit ever. A champion that takes skill without denying the enemy team anything, rather giving clear strength/weakness of predictable movement. In theory, Draven is the PERFECT concept of a skill-based champion. Not saying he's perfectly balanced right now, I'm saying his concept is on fucking point.

They need to stop adding new shit when they cant even balance what they have. They need to take a break from now until mid-season to assess and fix the vast majority of balance issues from itemization, champion balance, clear champion strength/weaknesses, etc.

CRIT needs to be fucking gutted on 90% of crit items. Crit should have diminishing return past 30-50% by not having abundance of other stats on the same item.
Hasn't been done before /=/ "unique". Make something that can be balanced by having clear strength/weaknesses by either having Cooldowns, Predictable movement, vision, lack of self-peeling. 's design is another PERFECT example of 'high skill' champion design. His ultimate needs to be toned down a little on the slow, right now it's 80% for about 1s. He has a clear weakness and a clear strength and it's everchanging.

I'm too lazy to right more because I have to go to work soon

King GeffyJan 7, 20171 votes

Sir Riot Sotere, I must ask you something to do for someone who enjoys this beauty called "League of Legends". Can you seek a balance between this turmoil of a midget with a hammer running around with many shields, the loss of Vision Ward, and the ever growing pain of Marskamen having to deal with ganks for the dammed tower? Can you bring the long lost order of Balance and not a time of meta where a blind monk running down bot for a level three gank with that setting in stone how matches were lost or won? This is something I ask, not as a demand but as in asking you to do this. This will mean a lot to me and the fellow colleagues that have very deep concern for this. Thank you for reading this

XxRinkyDinkyxXJan 3, 20175 votes

Yes because one outlier = fact.

These forums arent even discussion anymore

LeetriJan 3, 20173 votes

Have they ever been? People have always shouted out biased, anecdotal stories and claimed them as facts while furiously downvoting anyone who questions them.

MatezoideJan 3, 20175 votes

5:20

https://youtu.be/dFWl-08WAg0

Turrets are fine ecks dee

Actually watch the entire video and watch how quickly turrets are murdered, even without his W's execute.

AhristocatsJan 3, 20174 votes

honestly i don't know who thinks it's ok to do this at riot, it's not even ziggs the problem you replace ziggs by anyone and you get the same result but a little worse, just a little

MatezoideJan 3, 20173 votes

I mean, it isnt even bad that some champion is good at taking turrets. Everyone should have niches.

But this is just ridiculous. There was some LCS match a pretty long time ago, where a team composed of a 3 items Lucian, 2 items Twisted Fate and a full tank Nautilus went from outter turret all the way to the other team's Nexus in 40 seconds, or something like that. Cant seem to find it anymore though,mbut the boards had quite the reaction.

AhristocatsJan 3, 20173 votes

i don't even need the game, it happens everytime in my rankeds

LatetotheRaceJan 3, 20174 votes

The start of the game is cancer atm.

Meta PhytonJan 3, 20172 votes

People are addicted to the victory screen I think. A lot of people don't want to have fun anymore, they just want to win even if they don't have fun doing it

Earl EulrichJan 3, 20172 votes

thouhg losing without a chance to fight back just also isn´t fun...that´s the thing about the state of the game. In S2/3 you could pretty much pick a random champ and still had good chances having a fun game. Now you really have to pick a early game powerhous or chances are good the game is effectivly over by min 10 and will then just be a drag till finally the already winning team closes out the fiesta.

MrWasjigJan 3, 20172 votes

People are addicted to the victory screen I think.

Sorry for doing what I'm suppose to try and do in Ranked. Shit it's almost as if this game is highly competitive or something

Meta PhytonJan 3, 20171 votes

Before you assume that I was attacking you, really think.

Do you play to win but not base your entire joy on that dopamine surge that you might get at the end? If so, you're not the person I was talking about.

MrWasjigJan 4, 20171 votes

I wasn't assuming you were doing anything. It was a playful jab at what seemed like pointing out the obvious.

In any case, I play to win and that is what I find satisfaction in. Problem is losing doesn't bother me per say, losing bothers me when it's the result of agonising circumstances. In a lot of cases recently, one lane feeds, another flames them and then it all just spirals out of control from there. Once it starts there is little you can do, sure you can say "Hey, just focus on the match" or something similar that isn't antagonising but you can't control people nor the shit they spout. The losses incurred over the last week of playing wouldn't be nearly as misery inducing if they had mostly been even matches....sadly that's rarely the case :P

People are just addicted to being assholes I guess...

Meta PhytonJan 10, 20171 votes

Ok sorry, I was upset myself probably.

Personally I think it was a mistake to grant all kinds of "rewards" in LoL, like boxes, key fragments, grades, first tower gold, and stuff like that. I've seen people become so worked up over getting to open another box that in another universe they could have just found out their kid got accepted into a great university.

And never a day goes by where people either get excited, or miserable, from what meaningless letter got assigned to their performance, when half the time it doesn't even seem like the grading system even understands playing extremely well and hard-carrying a match.

The brain is not supposed to have that much dopamine triggered constantly, or it's bound to cause severe problems, like people tilting daily just because they lost a single point in the early match, or vitriolically blasting their teammates even when they play fine but just don't dominate the field.

Genocide VictimJan 3, 20171 votes

Short games are fine. I think I would love if the average game duration was 25 minutes.

LatetotheRaceJan 3, 20175 votes

Short games = casual overall. If you like short games, HotS is right there for you.

HeeroTXJan 3, 20179 votes

I am NOT a fan of surrendering and hardly ever call for a surrender vote. (I'll usually agree if the majority want to do it rather than force them to keep playing) But IF Riot wants the "average" game to be 25 minutes, then the surrender should drop to 15 mins or so. They should also just dump a bunch of champs also, since they'll never be any good in that timeframe.