@Riot: Since cannons are worth so much gold now, can they be worth more than 1 cs score?

Jesus is Savior·Apr 4, 2018·75 votes·10,085 views

Just like the jungle camps. So cs is more representative of gold gained, and not a pointless number.

51 Comments

Ariel the CruelApr 4, 201859 votes

Can we just replace CS with gold? Given and made?

JbelsApr 4, 201826 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndfhm0mK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-04T03:14:38.330+0000)

Can we just replace CS with gold? Given and made?

Seriously. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do to figure out an exact gold number is dumb. First you have 3 different minion types to account for, then you have to figure out the ratio of the number as it correlates to number of melee minions killed, number of siege minions killed, number of mage minions killed, and then how many jungle camps they've killed. God help you if they missed a cannon minion and you weren't looking at them to make a mental note of it. Good luck with your now totally incorrect math

Mysticman89Apr 4, 201815 votes

Don't forget how wards and champions (and some minions/pets but not all of them) also impact cs score and give variable gold.

TerozuApr 4, 20182 votes

Actually pets dont give cs.

Mysticman89Apr 4, 20182 votes

Could be. At some point they did, but then they changed some stuff to not, don't remember if it really was all of them, and it's a pain to actually test since it's not something practice tool lends itself to.

And in any case, they do give gold when killed, so point is trying to work out someones gold from their cs is a lost cause.

Starcraft243verApr 4, 20186 votes

Knowing how much gold an opponent has is quite irrevelant, just look at his stuff and count the gold he spent from there. Banked gold has no value.

JbelsApr 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Knowing how much gold an opponent has is quite irrevelant, just look at his stuff and count the gold he spent from there. Banked gold has no value.

It was more of a joke than anything. I doubt anyone actually calculates exact gold value based on creep score. I'm sure the pros know the gme so well that they can look at the clock, look at the cs, and just know the exact gold amount

SteelflameApr 4, 20182 votes

Sure it does. Its how big their power spike post recall may be. You may want to play around the fact that someone is sitting on 4k gold and hasn't had the chance to recall, because you know they are MUCH weaker until they get the chance to recall.

5000000000000000Apr 4, 20181 votes

Banked gold has no value, but the information of knowing the amount of banked gold has value. You could guess when the enemy would like to back, and try to force back before then, for example. If they're sitting on a lot of gold, you'd want to try to deny backing. You could also see their gold distribution more easily, instead of trying to look at every item they have.

Corrupt BlissApr 4, 20181 votes

I mean it's fairly easy to just go ~20/25 cs is equatable to approximately 300/350 gold. Add in kills, with assists coming in around 100/150 and you're good to go.

dunder killApr 4, 20181 votes

How is it dumb? Press tab. Quickly scan their items. Done. We dont need LoL to be dumbed down even further because people cant see that Irelia just finished triforce or that theyre half an item behind.

JbelsApr 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

How is it dumb? Press tab. Quickly scan their items. Done. We dont need LoL to be dumbed down even further because people cant see that Irelia just finished triforce or that theyre half an item behind.

it was a joke...

Automated RivenApr 4, 20181 votes

I would be down with this. Considering that if you even roughly know how much items cost you can pretty much estimate without 500-1000 gold at any given point. Hell you can estimate based on cs pretty damn accurately until like 10-15 minutes.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 4, 20182 votes

...Wow. Yes please.

1 death in a 1v1 1 death in a 1v5

The latter would give more gold and if people could actually see that maybe they'd stop saying #worth when they feed 5 people while getting a kill off of one

Z3SleeperApr 4, 20184 votes

Dying to more than one person will grant the enemy 150% of your bounty gold, regardless of whether it was 2-5 enemies. So dying to 2 people isn't any worse than dying to 5 gold-wise.

Just fyi. Still nets them XP and is still not worth.

Sire HippingtonApr 4, 20182 votes

In proplay and such, sure, but for soloQ, mentality is a big factor. If you manage to get a kill 1v5, it really hit their moral and boosts that of you're team, even if they gained 50% more gold from it it might still be worth especially if the chances of getting away weren't that high. it's also important who gets the kill. If xou have a carry type of champ and die to tehir support in the end, it's probably still worth it. Similar for a gank in lane, if you kill their laner and die to their jungler, you will still get an advantage over the laner and be able to snowball that lane of that so depending on the matchup, that can be better than getting forced of lane and falling behind the opposing laner even if their jungler gets some feed(obviously it also depends on the jungle pick)

So while it's generaly a bad idea to give more gold to you're opponents, it's not a clear call and there are more factors comming in than just the raw gold/team value.

Teridax68Apr 4, 20181 votes

Yes please. If we have to adjust CS values per kill every time minions or monsters get their gold rewards changed, to me that also suggests that CS is essentially just a stand-in for another, more relevant value (i.e. gold), and that we should cut out the middle man, rather than look for solutions to a problem that need not exist. It could give a much clearer picture of how well a player's doing, and how truly ahead either member of a lane is relative to each other.

Z3SleeperApr 4, 20181 votes

Hmmm... No I think that'd be too easy. Let's just have individual counters for each type of minion and monster everyone kills first.

Or even worse, individual gold counters for the same thing :^)

Jack GarrusApr 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndfhm0mK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-04T03:14:38.330+0000)

Can we just replace CS with gold? Given and made?

^ rito plz

big boi edriApr 4, 20182 votes

I'm curious if the whole KDA and CS score is an artifact of League's inception from Warcraft 3. Part of the game play in that game revolved heavily around estimating your opponents income as to know what they could and couldn't do. I don't see that it applies that heavily in League regarding the strategic aspect, but its possible they've retained it that way as a base aspect of the game play (that or because League was built from WC3 it was just something they never thought to change).

koshkyraApr 5, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndfhm0mK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-04T03:14:38.330+0000)

Can we just replace CS with gold? Given and made?

Im on board with this, but only if the enemy team cant see your gold/you cant see the enemy team's gold

RiotRiot MapleNectarApr 4, 201822 votes

We talked about this when we were making the change, and while we weren't deadset against it, we felt that I patch in the midst of a season was probably the wrong spot to do it. It may be something we revisit and add in midseason or preseason, but for now we didn't want to mess with things like "what does good cs at 10 minutes look like", pro cs records and all that kind of stuff. I think that the clarity is good, but it's also not such a slam dunk that I felt compelled we needed to do it now.

OleandervineApr 4, 201818 votes

Speaking of clarity, will you ever return the ability for us to see ally trinket charges (wards available for placing) on the scoreboard again? Vision score overrode this feature, and I feel like seeing wards available to your team is much more important than how many wards they've placed.

Corrupt BlissApr 4, 20184 votes

As a support main, when I start to get low or run out of charges I just ping my sight item. It's more proactive on my part, and still lets me feel amazing by seeing my bonkers 77 vision @ 25 minutes :D

OleandervineApr 4, 20189 votes

Yeah, but I need to know if my ADC is pulling their weight on vision too, and not just sitting on wards when I'm out.

ShadowGlaive213Apr 4, 20182 votes

Last I heard that's a bug and not a simple one to fix, though I haven't heard anything about it in a while. A round about way I've been doing it is left clicking on my ally and looking at their trinket in the upper left box. It's inconvenient but if I really want to know if they have any charges that's how I've been doing it.

SohleksApr 4, 20181 votes

With the way gold income is being tweaked so much I don't think I would be opposed to seeing what transforming creep score count into a "farm score" might look like.

Should probably exclude champion kills and assists from this. And what about gold generation items. Hmm. Maybe leave that out too. Maybe. Yeah should probably be focused on counting resources taken individually from the map.

This wish sprung when jungle camp values became super varied.

It's probably a big change people might get sentimentally moody about. Would have to think about what feels best. Numbers and presentation... Is a literal gold value OK. Or perhaps divide it by ten to have the value somewhere in the same stratosphere as old CS. But the clarity..!

I would divide the gold to get the gold score by an even larger not divisible by ten number if I wanted "farm scores" direct connection to gold more of a mystery. Less compute-able in game. And also the value would again be lower and closer to current cs (if larger than 10)

BernApr 4, 20181 votes

The issue with what you're saying is that things like good CS at 10 are actually different now anyways -- you're just not giving good feedback on that. A cannon is literally worth ~4 casters now instead of ~3 (and there's also a much bigger gold disparity between melees and casters than before, too). The meaning of the number has changed a lot.

Maybe you could give some kind of breakdown if you moused over an ally's CS number on the scoreboard or something? (Even just your own?)

VekknaApr 4, 20181 votes

When you're a mage with terrible AD, it can already be difficult to CS cannons at such a tiny sliver of hp. I'm kind of worried that with the hp buff and canon armor, it will be extremely difficult to even visually detect CS range.

Are the minion health changes an indirect advantage to ADs?

SpiritOfOdysseusApr 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

When you're a mage with terrible AD, it can already be difficult to CS cannons at such a tiny sliver of hp. I'm kind of worried that with the hp buff and canon armor, it will be extremely difficult to even visually detect CS range.

Are the minion health changes an indirect advantage to ADs?

You pretty much HAVE to spend mana on them, if you don't youre pretty much not good at cs(not directed at you, I'm just sayin). Single target + AA at 1/5 hp right AFTER a turret hits them or at 1/6hp right after your cannon hits it. It's so tilting to miss a cannon especially when youre getting starved already

5000000000000000Apr 4, 20181 votes

What do you think about replacing CS with the amount of gold earned from farming?

PoskeApr 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndfhm0mK,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-04T18:24:37.865+0000)

We talked about this when we were making the change, and while we weren't deadset against it, we felt that I patch in the midst of a season was probably the wrong spot to do it. It may be something we revisit and add in midseason or preseason, but for now we didn't want to mess with things like "what does good cs at 10 minutes look like", pro cs records and all that kind of stuff. I think that the clarity is good, but it's also not such a slam dunk that I felt compelled we needed to do it now.

I consistently found myself prioritizing ranged / melee minions just so that my cs doesnt look bad and tilt teammates. Funny thing is I am challenger yet I caught myself with that mindset few times

You should DEFINETLY apply this to a game

Revive AatroxApr 5, 20182 votes

@MAPLE NECTAR, can you please give me inside on why canons are blocked at 87 gold worth ? was this deliberate or is it a bug ? @Phreak told us in his patch note run down that canon minions would be worth around 100+ gold latter onto the game, but past the 15 minutes marks they don't grow in value no more. Thank you very much for taking your time to answer or adress this issue with the right person.

ProvidenceNoxApr 5, 20182 votes

How is changing cannon creep score value any more confusing then changing their gold value? This is not a major change that has to wait for midseason.

WimbledofyApr 4, 20189 votes

Creep score score?

Warlord ScrapApr 4, 20181 votes

Its one of those things like atm machine

C9 Squeeky Apr 4, 20188 votes

Good point. 3 sounds like a good number. 3x melee minions, though they would be worth as much as 4 caster creeps but putting cannons at 4 might make CS look inflated.

Mysticman89Apr 4, 20186 votes

I like being able to gauge someones (potentially my own) csing ability and not be thrown off by whether someone is getting a bunch of minions but missing cannons, or vice versa.

JG camp CS scores were more changed based on the info they potentially gave away about jg pathing rather than necessarily making the cs score translate to gold better. If they did want to show someones gold earned, they could make a stat for it directly.

Plenty of curve balls in trying to work out gold from cs anyway, since lots of different things with variable values contribute to cs score, so they'd need to rework everything to be consistent, and at that point I'm not sure what the point of cs versus gold would be in the first place.

Jesus is SaviorApr 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I like being able to gauge someones (potentially my own) csing ability and not be thrown off by whether someone is getting a bunch of minions but missing cannons, or vice versa.

In the next patch though, missing cannons is "bad csing ability" because of how much gold they give (up to 90 later in the game?). You will have to judge your "csing ability" differently than in the past, because missing cannons could lose the game now (where in the past they didn't).

Zane ZephyrApr 4, 20182 votes

There was a specific reason why they did that for the jungle camps though.

Flawless FetusApr 4, 20182 votes

That reason is exactly why they need to change it for creeps.

StupaflyApr 4, 20181 votes

I thought the reason they changed the jungle camp cs numbering was because people could see what jungle path you have taken by looking at your cs.

Zane ZephyrApr 4, 20181 votes

Yes, that is exactly what it was.

Flawless FetusApr 4, 20181 votes

Maybe, but the reason they provided was because it was misleading from a "gold gained" perspective.

Mal the RedApr 5, 20182 votes

I stand by the belief that KDA ratios are just as pointless.

I think there should just be a "Gold Earned" tally in the scoreboard instead of KDA and CS.

One of many ways I believe will curb toxic behavior.

KhâmulApr 4, 20181 votes

well, you can do this: -gold from champion kills -gold from champion assists -gold from selling drugs to kids -gold from minions -gold from monsters

DuskDaUmbreonApr 4, 20181 votes

Gold from champions is already represented differently.

You know. With the KDA.

KhâmulApr 5, 20181 votes

I'm trying my hardest but i can't notice irst blood and interrupts in my kda

MalchaApr 4, 20181 votes

But, what would keep you from all those S ranks if we dropped CS?

PANAGIA PARTHENAApr 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Follow Christ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndfhm0mK,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-04T01:56:42.719+0000)

Just like the jungle camps. So cs is more representative of gold gained, and not a pointless number.

Either that or have their own score, would be fun to see how many cannons ppl lost/got denied ;p