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Assassins Building Black Cleaver for the Tank Stats is a Problem

Stephenizgod··5 votes·1,796 views

When an assassin can build item 3071 without sacrificing their ability to instant one-shot anyone, there is a problem with Assassin itemization. They should not be able to benefit from the tank stats from item 3071 and still have massive burst. This is mostly a problem with item 3147 and item 3142 and their synergy with nearly all the assassins kits. However, item 3071 is a Juggernaut/Bruiser and sometimes Fighter item, it is meant to for champions like Garen or Darius who don't deal burst damage. It is not meant for Assassins... So why does Kha or Rengar build it and still get to insta-one-shot 1-3 people all while being too tanky to burst? They can't even stack it up on a single target because they kill them so fast.

Assassins should not be able to build tank stats if they want to erase someone. They can't do Glass Cannon levels of damage but not be glass... It feels bad when Kha or Reng or Talon jumps into your back line and kills someone and your team can't even burst them down before they get away or kill someone else. It also makes it impossible for Bruiser/Juggernauts to deal with them because they don't have the damage to kill an assassin now but they also don't have the tank stats to survive and assassin.

Basically them building item 3071 is a sign of a huge problem with Assassin itemization, once they finish their two lethality items they can build whatever the hell they want without any consequences.

Edit: Clearly not a popular opinion, however not one person has actually offered a valid contradictory point. I never said Black Cleaver was a tank item, however it has tank stats... HP is a tank stat, it is one of their primary stats, just because an item has it does not mean it is a tank item. Many items have tank stats that are not intended for tanks, its just a stat. I don't know why people are so caught up on that one single point...

However one person did bring something to my attention, Black Cleaver has 20% CDR on it which makes it invaluable to an Assassin. So not only do they not sacrifice damage, they get tank stats and CDR as well as minor Armor Shred which they can't stack anyways because they kill too quickly... Someone said that "well when the enemy has 200+ armor..." If the enemy has 200+ armor they are not your intended target in the first place and if you can kill them by building Black Cleaver, all you are doing is proving my point... Assassins shouldn't be killing someone who has 200+ armor and they shouldn't be building Black Cleaver... fyi I don't think Marksmen (with the exception of Graves) should be building it either.

30 Comments

MrFawknSunshine5 votes

didnt know black clever as a tank item or gave tank stats.

they build it for a lot of reasons, maybe the ad , cdr, the passive.

just cuz an item has some hp with it dont make it a tank item or give tank stats

Stephenizgod1 votes

it isn't a Tank item, it has tanky stats.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

{quoted}

it isn't a Tank item, it has tanky stats.

no it has HP it dont have def stats like armor , mr , damage reduction

AlienPrimate5 votes

Tank items: item 3151 item 3027 item 3078 item 3748 item 3812 item 3046 item 3116

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Stephenizgod1 votes

Reread my post. I said it isn't a tank item, it has tank stats. None of those items are tank items, they have tanky stats. There is a difference between the role Tank and the definition of Tanky. They are not one in the same. Certain mages need the extra tank stats because they don't do insta burst damage and need to survive long enough to get their damage off. However some champs are abusing them and it is a problem as well.

AlienPrimate1 votes

So what you are saying is you want Riot to set which items each champion can build and they must build those 5 items every single game.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

it isn't a Tank item, it has tanky stats.

ok... that doesn't mean much of anything still. The item gives a bunch of other stats that assassins (and some ADCs) really like the CDR and the passive. It's not a tank item so it also gives a fair chunk of damage as well. Assassins do lose some burst if they build it. Just that if you are a squishy that lost burst damage would be largely insignificant

Stephenizgod1 votes

ADC's generally do sustained damage, not burst damage, so BC makes sense on them as they stack it up in order to deal the damage. The passive also helps them in the same way it helps its intended builders, Juggernauts/Bruisers. Assassins have access to many CDR items that better fit their playstyle. They usually can't stack the passive armor shred anyways since they tend to 100-0 instantly. They are building it mainly for the HP stat, the other stats are just icing on the cake.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

ADC's generally do sustained damage, not burst damage, so BC makes sense on them as they stack it up in order to deal the damage. The passive also helps them in the same way it helps its intended builders, Juggernauts/Bruisers. Assassins have access to many CDR items that better fit their playstyle. They usually can't stack the passive armor shred anyways since they tend to 100-0 instantly. They are building it mainly for the HP stat, the other stats are just icing on the cake.

no they are not. Sorry but 20% CDR is a great stat on pretty much any champion and they don't really have much in the way of CDR. They can also stack the passive when fighting against tanks or other armor stacking targets. Also you literally said that the item was designed for fighters, juggernauts and bruisers (what difference bruisers have between the other two I have no idea but whatever) so if it's an issue with assassins building it then it also should be an issue with ADCs building it. Seems more of "I don't want these champions to build this" type of issue rather than a "this type of champions are abusing this item" type of issue

Stephenizgod1 votes

item 3147 item 3142 item 3156 item 3158 item 1412

all regularly built on Assassins. Yea you are correct, the 20% CDR is too good to pass up. Perhaps that is more an issue with the items stats. However my original point stands, Assassins shouldn't be building Black Cleaver instead of another damage item. I do not believe any Marksmen, with the exception of Graves, should be building Black Cleaver. Its just not as much of a problem because the ones who do build it would not be relevant without it.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

item 3147 item 3142 item 3156 item 3158 item 1412

all regularly built on Assassins. Yea you are correct, the 20% CDR is too good to pass up. Perhaps that is more an issue with the items stats. However my original point stands, Assassins shouldn't be building Black Cleaver instead of another damage item. I do not believe any Marksmen, with the exception of Graves, should be building Black Cleaver. Its just not as much of a problem because the ones who do build it would not be relevant without it.

Black Cleaver IS another damage item. It's not a tank item. It gives damage and it's better against armor stacking targets. You don't get to decide who should and who shouldn't build an item.

Stephenizgod1 votes

They have items designed around roles and classes for a reason, when one class is abusing the items of another class it tends to get nerfed. Black Cleaver is an item designed for Juggernauts and Fighters not Assassins, but it is currently being abused by them.

They have nerfed entire classes of champions for this very reason. They have reworked items and champions for this very reason. They have completely changed metas over this very reason... So no i do not get to decide because I don't work for Riot, however they do get to decide and I am just bringing to attention one such item that is being abused far too successfully outside of its original intended class.

Plain and simple, Assassins are abusing an item not meant for them because it covers a huge weakness without costing them anything.

AlienPrimate5 votes

Them building BC for the armor shred against enemies who actually build armor is called them having a brain, not a problem.

Stephenizgod1 votes

except they don't build it for people going armor, they build it so they can survive getting bursted after they jump in and kill someone. The issue is their kits have built in designs for this purpose already. So all this does is make it hard to retaliate against them further allowing them to snowball. Generally the assassin isn't/shouldn't be going for the guy who has 200+ armor... so BC isn't needed... they built lethality to do basically true damage against the mid laner or bot laners. If they are building BC to kill people who built armor and still getting away with it, there is another problem.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

No definitely only build it for armor stackers as there are way better items to survive burst but If every member of the enemy team has over 150 armor i have nothing else to buy to deal with that as I am forced to go full pen just to be semi relevant. It's not even really helping when i have to also deal with 3k hp targets either as there isnt an assassin item to deal with high hp.

Stephenizgod1 votes

If the squishy targets are building over 150 armor, they aren't building damage. That is an advantage for your team, assuming you are not all ad. Although even if you were all AD, they still don't have damage items so team fights should go your way just out of pure damage. Late game this is an issue for you as an assassin, but you should also not be going in on a full HP target in a teamfight alone at that point. Besides its pretty rare for an entire team to just start stacking armor unless you are really fed, in which case you probably have the items to deal with them anyways. The most you would have to deal with is item 3047 on adc's and item 3157 on mages.

AlienPrimate1 votes

Ezreal item 3047 item 3025 item 3026item 3042 item 3153 item 3036 has 207 armor while still having 304 AD without including runes.

KlydeFrog1 votes

That is a stupid ez build. Ill give you a better one. Switch blade and lord dom for ludens and static. And get cdr boots. And i hope your using metoer or summon aery.

AlienPrimate1 votes

Must be really dumb when 50.1% build bork and 10.2% build lord dom.

0.4% build shiv and 0.8% build ludens.

I don't play Ez so I don't know why you should or shouldn't build any items, but I do know I have seen the exact same build I listed in multiple games.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Let me explain . you gain more damage and lose none.lord dom no longer does damaged based on hp. 3 seasons ago people used to build ludens them it got nerfed so his q didnt proc it. Season 8 roles around and they unnerfed it so his q does proc it. No its not in patch notes either. Take transcendence 300 ad and more ap yah you one shot champs off of one e and one q combo your right the build i do is trash

ForFoxSakes1 votes

Well I have M7 Ez and ludens and shiv are fucking stupid to build on him.

Guy doesnt even understand what lord doms is mainly picked for

Let me explain . you gain more damage and lose none.lord dom no longer does damaged based on hp

hint - it's not the HP damage then or now item 1029

so dont listen to his hardstuck silver 4 logic

DarukongSr2 votes

I actually agree with this statement. If a talon gets even one early kill he starts roaming top and oneshotting me...as Darius. Assassin's shouldn't be able to oneshot any juggernaut unless massively ahead and/or the juggernaut is dumb and does complete glass cannon.

KlydeFrog2 votes

But you can build the same item and go mid and one shot talon and thats okay but if it happens to you its wrong typical.

DarukongSr2 votes

Wrong. Darius can't force trades on a talon near as easily. Darius doesn't have near the mobility or oneshot potential, nor the ability to go invisible and escape fights or attack nearly any target he chooses at any time. Darius ought to be far stronger than most melees if he meets his win conditions because he lacks so much else in his kits besides delayed damage, decent but unreliable sustain, and a pull. He does isn't even that great, can't split push worth a dang...I mean really you aren't looking at the whole picture.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted} However, item 3071 is a Juggernaut/Bruiser and **sometimes Fighter **item

What did he mean by this?

Stephenizgod1 votes

Black Cleaver was designed for champions like Garen, Darius, Illaoi, etc Tankier Fighters. Its also effective on champs like Irelia and Jax. However those champs tend to go for Trinity Force first depending on how well they are doing. That is why it is sometimes for Fighters too so they can get some tankiness without completely sacrificing their ability to do anything. It is however not meant for assassins as they generally don't have the ability to fully stack it since they kill targets so quickly.

Beatrice falls1 votes

item 3812 [sg-ahri-3] item 3072 [sg-jinx]

Stephenizgod1 votes

I don't mind Death's Dance tbh, Bloodthirster only annoys me when its on Draven.

ForFoxSakes1 votes

You're really crying about an assassin getting 400 HP as being too tanky to kill?!

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