Damage Creep is a myth; however, there is a glaring problem with damage in this game..

HateDaddy··117 votes·6,864 views

And before you slam the downvote button because I'm not jerking commonly accepted beliefs here, hear me out because I don't disagree with the end result; I simply disagree with how we've gotten here and the idea that damage is the only thing that has scaled out of control.

The real problem this game faces is game pacing. Games pace way too quickly now. Seriously, just look at your games and think about it like this: how often are you knocking down inhib turrets pre-20 minutes? Even sub-20 minutes around 21/22 minutes is common. And that's absolutely insane. But how did we get to this point? Is it really because damage has gotten out of control or is it something more than that? I contend that it's something else entirely but it appears and feels like it's because damage has gotten out of control.

If you look at raw damage values across the board, they haven't gone up at all. In fact; values on AP have gone down and AD has virtually remained the same with an up/down cycle due to balance circulation - what I mean by balance circulation is an item gets nerfed and as it falls off, it's competitors get nerfed eventually leaving everything weaker resulting in a necessity for buffs to those same items down the line; this cycle continues, hence a circulation of balance. I coined this term, it was me. Let the history books show that, Marc Merrill.

Granted, resist values have gone down, too but it's maintained a pretty competitive pace with damage values; certainly defensive values haven't gone down enough to make defense useless but that's really not the point I'm getting at here. When damage values are going down in combination with defense values, you keep a relatively steady balance between the two and I'd contend one set of values hasn't gone above or below it's rival significantly enough to make a big difference. This holds true for damage steroids vs defense steroids with the only real exception being a favored bias towards damage steroids with all the %hp true damage being added - a trend that needs to stop because %hp true damage is actually a ridiculous concept that should've remained exclusive to one champion. Moving on to my point though...

AD Damage has remained at a stand still (AP has gotten slightly weaker) while defense has gotten slightly weaker. So with no exponential decline or increase to speak of on either rivals values, why exactly does damage feel so overbearing? I don't deny that damage feels overbearing currently because it absolutely feels that way. However, as I've explained, in terms of values, it hasn't really gotten out of control. At least, what I mean is, damage hasn't increased enough across the board in terms of items/runes/masteries/inherent steroids to explain the feeling of overpowering damage galore we currently experience.

This goes back to game pacing. Games pace so much quicker, global gold generates much quicker both innately and as a result of turrets and objectives falling much faster. Damage hasn't gotten out of control, snowballing and game pacing has and that makes damage feel absurd because when damage gets ahead, it always feels absurd but that's the very nature of damage. Let me illustrate this with an example. In the past when games didn't pace so quickly, a champion getting fed beyond belief and doing ridiculous damage might've felt like bullshit but you justified it because, well hey, he was fed as fuck. Now take this example and apply it to an entire team because they've gained so much gold because turrets drop like flies. And that snowball just rolls on down the hill within this scaling goes from what used to be a moderately paced increase to an exponential increase.

In short, because towers melt so quickly, because teams get ahead much quicker and because games scale so much faster, the stats on the front running team scale exponentially in accordance. Sure, you might notice that you've managed to acquire 200-300 armor in 20 minutes and die in 2-3 seconds but there's no way you've had the chance to acquire enough HP and simply having the advantage or neutral grounds of levels because you've gotten outscaled so quickly so that damage becomes extremely noticeable, on par with my example of a snowballing champion in past seasons. But it's easy to notice this damage and forget that the tank on the front running team is experiencing the power spike of a snowballing tank - he will seemingly live forever. You'll notice one tank dying in 3-4 seconds but meanwhile, the front lining tank is standing in the middle of the enemy team for 10 seconds and likely surviving. This scaling doesn't discriminate, everything is snowballing essentially but damage is much easier to notice.

The real problem is this game scales too fast and I remember pointing this out in the beginning of the season only for people to tell me I was wrong. But the real question is, what can be done? You could conclude the reasonable solution is to nerf the values of offense/defense across the board to decelerate game pacing but in reality that would just turn games in to wet noodle fights and make everything unnecessarily weaker. The real culprit here is towers dying to fast, gold scaling too quickly (first blood towers, etc) and as a result, snowballs becoming unstoppable. Adjust this, and you likely fix the very shitty expierence you have currently.

Thing is, I don't expect Riot to fix this. In fact, this is what they want. And this is where I draw a line. I tend to support Riot because I believe they're simply correct most of the time. In fact, they're correct now because they want faster paced games for competitive and they've done the necessary things to achieve that. So in that sense, they aren't even wrong about that. But if you don't like how this feels, you're met with this really shitty feeling of effacement.

Here's what's important: stop circlejerking behind concepts that are completely knee-jerk and lacking in both evidence and analytical process. Lethality is a perfect example of this. People are still complaining about it as if it's the problem, when in reality, it's just the byproduct of the real problem at hand. That's not to say lethality wasn't OP at one point, just likely anything could and will be OP and needs to be properly balanced but those elements are constant. That won't change. What needs to change is the game pacing and this truly is the big problem that explains basically every common complaint at its core.

I realize I'm saying don't jerk but jerk this instead and there's no way for me to avoid that hypocritical concept because I honestly believe Riot thinks the dissatisfaction we have is with current metas/items and not with the game physics themselves and if we don't properly convey that message, how can they actually evaluate that? And if we assumed that wasn't true and Riot was scum city and wanted us to not complain about game pacing and focus on other, less relevant issues, you'd still be holding them accountable for what's actually wrong with the game and either they'd have to come up with a really elaborate lie (which isn't likely) or actually address the game problems, which I believe to be the action they'd take because I don't picture these guys as these greedy, manipulative evil geniuses who are destroying this game to hurt your feelings. In fact, most of these guys are brilliant and deserve some credit and respect but ultimately, if you want to truly get a point across, you owe it to them and yourselves to address them coherently and with logic and respect, not with nonsensical, unfounded vitriol.

As usual, thanks for reading and there is no tl;dr. Don't come to a forum board expecting not to read some god damnit nappa.

123 Comments

dunder kill26 votes

People who think damage is out of control now didn't play in S1. EVERYTHING did WAAAAYYYYYYYYYY more damage. Ever wonder where the "facecheck Garen in a bush" meme came from? That was back in S1 when Garen would jungle and start with nothing but 8-9 pots (jungle items didn't exist) then come and destroy you with nothing but base damages

HateDaddy25 votes

{quoted}

People who think damage is out of control now didn't play in S1. EVERYTHING did WAAAAYYYYYYYYYY more damage. Ever wonder where the "facecheck Garen in a bush" meme came from? That was back in S1 when Garen would jungle and start with nothing but 8-9 pots (jungle items didn't exist) then come and destroy you with nothing but base damages

I'd avoid comparing the game in s1/2 and maybe even 3 to now because the game is just so much different, it may as well be a different game entirely. That said, I don't think damage across the board has declined that significantly. If you facecheck a Garen inhabited bush as a squishy now, you're gonna have a bad time.

foinhas12 votes

Just to clarify some things:

1st: Damage wasn't really that high in season 1. Base damage was, and champions had a lot less health at lower levels. But stacking damage was extremely difficult back then compared to now.

2nd: Garen was only viable in season 1 during the sunfire stack period. Outside of that, he was considered a newb champ, as in only newbies would play him. Sure he dealt lots of damage (in ealr and mid, after level 11 he would disapear from the game), but first you would have to catch anyone. The only way to play him was to wait in the brush and hope for someone to facecheck it (hence the meme).

Spoofghoul11 votes

damage has gotten out of control in a few ways you missed

for example item 3036 +15% damage but also fire drakes and their % increases up to 24% and ofc keystones but everyone knows about that and also easy peasy grievous wounds on generalist items making sustain weaker

HOWEVER What is really the culprit which needs addressing asap

A ton of champions gained % damage or access to it in one way or another Penetration is overbearing and stacks too effectively And last but certainly not least, CDR is everywhere on offensive items giving your adc's which used to run 10% at most now access to 40% and struggling not to overbuild

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

damage has gotten out of control in a few ways you missed

for example item 3036 +15% damage but also fire drakes and their % increases up to 24% and ofc keystones but everyone knows about that and also easy peasy grievous wounds on generalist items making sustain weaker

HOWEVER What is really the culprit which needs addressing asap

A ton of champions gained % damage or access to it in one way or another Penetration is overbearing and stacks too effectively And last but certainly not least, CDR is everywhere on offensive items giving your adc's which used to run 10% at most now access to 40% and struggling not to overbuild

Percentage Pen has gotten better vs tanks and weaker vs squishies. But I do see that as a problem but it's less looming than game pacing imo. That's because if games pace slower, percentage pen feels less overbearing.

As for dragons, yeah you got me there. I cannot deny that this does lead to more damage, however, is it significant enough in most cases to make a common, constant increase in overall damage across the board? I doubt it. Games don't have 3 stacked infernal every game and frankly, since s3, %hp damage has become a constant in various kits across the board for objective and consistent damage. You can debate whether that's good or bad (in the case of max hp% true damage, I ageee its bad) but again, I don't think all these things in a broad scope are significant enough to make damage feel more overbearing than game pacing itself. And I think dragon buffs contribute to game pacing problems in a big way, too.

dunder kill4 votes

LW is worthless against squishies though. Old LW was much better than +15% against tanks.

I don't know why you think penetration stacking is more of a problem now considering flat Armor Pen wasn't gated by level, BC used to apply its full 30% shred in just 4 stacks, and LW worked against all targets not just tanks. Old BC used to have 15 flat armor pen on top of the 30% shred as well

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

LW is worthless against squishies though. Old LW was much better than +15% against tanks.

I don't know why you think penetration stacking is more of a problem now considering flat Armor Pen wasn't gated by level, BC used to apply its full 30% shred in just 4 stacks, and LW worked against all targets not just tanks. Old BC used to have 15 flat armor pen on top of the 30% shred as well

The only thing I'd say is percentage pen vs tanks has absolutely gotten better because of how it applies to bonus armor + giant slayer. That said, in exchange, it got weaker vs squishies. I think the percentage pen vs tanks likely is slightly overtuned but Riot keeps it this way because crit sucks and AD as a stat by itself and even with percentage pen isn't great for tank busting.

SirLapse8 votes

This only furthers the point with how junglers are in control of the game, as their entire job is to snowball the lead of their laners, gain a huge lead while decreasing the opponent's ability to recover and obtain objectives. It used to take 2-3 ganks to secure a true lane advantage, now you can kill a laner and the lane is considered won. That was one crucial difference I noticed started to change after season 4 ended, and I pretty much shrugged it off because we got laser turrets. Once those were removed the game pace went way faster, and while I don't want turrets to revert to that, I really wish it wasn't so common for a player to get a turret to half HP because the enemy laner died and has no TP.

The concept of rubber-banding vs. longer game pace is really huge though, since determining what an effective lead is has a lot of impact on champions that rely on being strong purely in the early phases and eventually falling off. I hope that can be more adequately balanced rather than the mess in S5 where comebacks were had after literally one throw from either team.

1wolfpack5 votes

too much text, I had to stop reading half way through. however the real issue here is that not too long ago people complained that the games lasted too long. how many gamers, esp casual gamers want to invest that kinda time in a game/match. so riot did something about it to speed up the matches and again we have people complain.

their is no winning here. regardless of what happens going forward. some people will be happy and others wont.

Spicy Rice26 votes

A Tl;Dr for you

Damage feels too strong because games are too fast. Games are too fast because of global gold generation and wet paper towers

1wolfpack4 votes

sweet thanks bro!

LAKIGR4 votes

Honestly I rarely bother to watch past 20 minutes in pro games any more for the simple fact you can generally already tell who's won and it makes for a very boring game over all

xJLx MCHammer4 votes

Damage has increase in the form of -dragons -more penetration from items and lower resistance -more cooldown reduction -masteries -passive experience and pacing (like you said OP)

More importantly, players are more better ok average so they are more organized. Players have learned since release how to turret dive, and other crap better

Apollocliptic4 votes

I only slightly disagree with one point, I don't think tanks and damage dealers snowball the same. I think damage snowballs faster, or scales faster in general, so that a fed tank will lose to a fed assassin in the pre-20 minutes, though dominate post 30, but by then you've probably lost all towers. I main tanks and controllers, and what I've noticed is less people playing tank in general for the following reason:

A fed tank is scary (like garen or nasus), but still takes more time to be effective, while a fed damage dealer ace's your team, including you (as a fed or ahead tank) at 15 minutes into the game if there's an early teamfight, even not fed, 2 kills is enough for some champs to start one shotting full tank champs that have equal kill/farm/levels.

I think you have the right idea about pacing, but i don't think it's cause turrets fall too fast, it's just damage is scaling faster and easier, and defensive stats don't match. Full build tanks might be in a right place compared to full build assassins, and adc and mages, in terms of rock paper scissors scenarios, but early and mid game they are almost always behind, unless significantly fed, or the damage dealers are significantly behind. Assuming all are equal, tanks are not tanky in the early or mid game (early makes sense, but mid too). While full damage builds even on tanky champs are becoming more popular because you can 100-0 at most stages of the game

I know this isn't 100% true, I've gone full tank Taric at level 1 and had 4 people attack me during an invade and fail, you can be tanky early on, but generally speaking, defensive items have less impact early, therefore, it's best to play champs that deal instant undodgeable damage and max it out, and see who does better, Akali or Zed, until higher levels of gameplay where advanced players can play around their disadvantage, to the point in which you NEED that tank, instead of low elo with 3 assassins and 2 adc's on your team.

Ziggs Kaczynski3 votes

You mean League has the same problem as hearthstone currently? AKA: Devs letting aggro meta's occur so that casual players can play and climb with little to no skill. Make games end quick and easy so that people with short attention spans gobble up the game.

Obviously it is not that extreme with league there is still a lot more strategy and skill than Pirate Warrior/Shaman.

But same concept: Make games end faster and generally revolve around getting early advantages to snowball the game, instead of late game strategies so that a more casual player base can be introduced.

Anonagon3 votes

u rite tho hatedaddy

except for one thing - the %hp true damage complaint

It's honestly a laughable complaint, because there are only four sources of it in the game, and only two that matter.

The four champions with %hp true damage:

Vayne Fiora Garen (lul) Camille Q converting Bork damage to true damage (as if that's relevant)

So complaining about %how true damage is a rampant thing that's ruining the game is a top lul. If you have playing against Fiora that much just say that, you top lane tank player.

Standgrounding4 votes

But Fiora is cancer...

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

You hit on something but failed to realize what it implies.

Yes, overall damage on a per-game basis hasnt increased much. However, with state of damage in the game, you have a lot more "impact damage" instead of "inconsequential damage". Bursting someone down from 100-0 is a lot more impactful use of 1000 damage than 4 instances of 250 damage each, where the opponent can potion or heal up between fights.

"Damage" is a relative term. During the Cinderhulk meta, overall damage actually increased quite a bit - it was just that the tank stats vastly outscaled damage. The damage numbers only tell one story. There is a solid argument to be made that the damage we see today has a lot more impact on kills and objectives than the damage of the past, even if the numbers stayed the same.

TheDelighted3 votes

Not entirely true. Damage creep is not a myth . Before Pre-season 6 the average AD an ADC would get in game would be ~300 with full glass cannon build. Now a full glass cannon ADC has around 500 or more AD, critical chance, cooldown reduction, and/or lethality. AP champions have a little bit more AP than before (since AP hasn't seen any new items and the buffs to the existing items were utility based for the most part), but their mana regen has been buffed and so did their cooldown reduction and riot nerfed a lot of magic resist items . To top it all of, riot introduced keystone masteries and buffed damage amplification masteries while constantly nerfing defense items. Shorter games are the effect of Damage creep, towers fall quicker because champions do more damage to them. But I agree with you. Snowballing in Season 6 and Season 7 is huuuuuuuuge, and this adds to damage creep, tanks melting before touching their front line, and towers dying with a fart.

FireDrizzle3 votes

I made a thread asking if turrets need a defensive buff and added a poll. Most players think turrets need a defensive buff.

Sulrana3 votes

You do realize that riot is intentionally making games short. Mostly for pro-play so it looks cooler and feels quicker

if you like 50 min matches every day there are other games out there you can play. I honestly don't understand why anyone would take the time to write that much about something that isn't a problem for anyone.

LAKIGR2 votes

Except for the fact that shorter and the easier it is to snow ball the more boring and uninteresting pro games come since all u see is one team get a lead and just proceed to win with out making any really intersting play.

On top of that it makes games that you play now feel like a one sided thing where one team gets and advantage and you might as well afk since all your doing is waiting for 30 minutes to loose the game. It makes for a very dull and irritating game to play.

Besides even going back to s5 getting a 50 minute game wasnt that common I mean I'm pretty sure the average game time was about 40 minutes. 30 if you got a really big early lead and 50+ of either both teams were equal and no one was taking that risk to make a pick or get caught out. Or one team had so much wave clear that u couldnt push and take inhib towers

Magearna2 votes

And to me, those games were more interesting. I'd rather play to 45min for it to come down to "alright who's gonna get the better engage/has the more skilled ADC/catches the other team offguard?" Those games, at least for me, were fun even if I lost them. And like you said, I remember S5 giving me those experiences.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

And to me, those games were more interesting. I'd rather play to 45min for it to come down to "alright who's gonna get the better engage/has the more skilled ADC/catches the other team offguard?" Those games, at least for me, were fun even if I lost them. And like you said, I remember S5 giving me those experiences.

Only roughly 1/10 of the games went like that, and that's why it was memorable. The other games were literally a game of who could throw the hardest because leads essentially meant nothing if you had any throws at all. There was no stable way around that specifically in soloqueue either outside of getting a tank jungler who could handle turret dives mid to late game, which naturally not everyone used. I've noted more toxicity over if a game didn't end properly or people rushed too hard to end despite tankier death ray towers than in this season, because games end around the time that you expect them to.

The only thing that meta had over every other meta is that it took 3 teamfights to end the game around mid to late, and it had a lot of problems in between due to that.

LAKIGR2 votes

In my option season 5 is still the best season out of any that if played. Not only could you play almost any champ and not be punished by the meta just because your champ isn't apart of it. And you fell behind it actually felt like you could do something unlike now where you just loose. Of course s5 had it's problem champs sejuani, darius gangplank, Kalista but besides them every other champ felt fine to vs. Unlike now where if graves, rengar or khaki get slightly ahead that they burst u down so fast it isn't funny. Or jhin who half hits u with 1 shot. Or varus and Jayce who half hit u from fog of war since they can shoot at you from so far away and it's not like their projectiles are slow

LAKIGR2 votes

Let's not forget just how many different champions we saw during worlds that year. We saw something like 74 different champs. So far all the pro play in seen it's just been Jayce, jhin and rengar

TheI3igDaddy3 votes

This was an incredibly long way to say "RIOT, FUCKING BUFF TOWERS ALREADY".

Leaf of the lake2 votes

Could've been more concise (about half of that is pure fluff), but the points you make are sound. Snowballing is and has always been the problem.

I can't count the number of times a team has been walking up to an inhib turret pre-20 minutes (either my own or the enemy's), something that is extremely noticeable. Because when a team reaches that point, you expect to have homeguards to defend with. When they're marching up to an inhib turret at 18 minutes, you don't get that option, and then they crack the base before the surrender option even becomes available. Losing that much ground before 20 minutes is a death sentence, even if kills and cs are similar.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nOjIF63n,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-03-17T23:39:56.483+0000)

Could've been more concise (about half of that is pure fluff), but the points you make are sound. Snowballing is and has always been the problem. I can't count the number of times a team has been walking up to an inhib turret pre-20 minutes (either my own or the enemy's), something that is extremely noticeable. Because when a team reaches that point, you expect to have homeguards to defend with. When they're marching up to an inhib turret at 18 minutes, you don't get that option, and then they crack the base before the surrender option even becomes available. Losing that much ground before 20 minutes is a death sentence, even if kills and cs are similar.

I could've shortened it, however, I felt it was important to address a few other issues that have been common place here to illustrate my point. There was no avoiding wall of text here and I don't want to do anyone the disservice of making broad, unspecific statements on a very specific issue

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

So...

Make it so there's less gold to go around?

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

So...

Make it so there's less gold to go around?

Not necessarily that. Make towers stronger, get rid of first blood tower gold and rebalance dragon buffs (or remove them entirely..) and that alone would slow gold gains/snowballing down.

Yaśuo Main2 votes

It's confusing how Tower's scaling armor is literally garbage and having no kind of offensive specialty, not to mention how they decided to add a mastery that gives more defense for more enemies around, BUT they didn't give that to turrets. I really question these, especially when the inhibitor towers or the nexus towers don't even have better stats than the outer towers.

Cloud2732 votes

Didn't even bother to read the OP. Downvoted and moving on.

HateDaddy50 votes

{quoted}

Didn't even bother to read the OP. Downvoted and moving on.

Easy there rebel

Lord Boltrix11 votes

What a day when people can't be bothered to read, what is our world coming to?

ChaoticPinecone19 votes

Well, it really depends on content. I can understand a wall of text backed by objective facts, but the post doesnt really go into any objective facts. It makes sweeping generalizations and some assumptions, but without any stats to prove the point.

I can summarize the point pretty sufficiently:

  1. Damage values have not increased. AD champions deal the same overall damage on a per game basis, AP deal a little less. Resists have been pretty much the same.
  2. Game pacing has increased, giving an impression of damage-increase. Before getting a lead meant killing your laner over and over. Now you can get a lead through objectives alone.

I mean, theres a reason why your English teachers tell you to make every sentence advance your point. Its because repeating yourself and laboring a point doesnt make people want to actually read your work. I dont mind reading 10 paragraphs when each paragraph and each sentence in that paragraph is necessary to understand your point. I do mind reading 10 paragraphs when 5 of them repeat themselves

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

You have just summarized why I hate walls of texts on the internet, and go as far as to defend Twitter. Thank you.

rtbf2256182412 votes

Saying damage creep is merely a myth and then proceeding to support said myth is pretty fucking odd tbh.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Saying damage creep is merely a myth and then proceeding to support said myth is pretty fucking odd tbh.

Uhm...do you not understand what damage creep implies? The entire thread explains that damage isn't significantly higher than it used to be, games simply pace too quickly and snowball effects make every power spike feel absurd.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

. . . Sure, you might notice that you've managed to acquire 200-300 armor in 20 minutes and die in 2-3 seconds but there's no way you've had the chance to acquire enough HP. . .

Small added detail that helps compound this sentiment. Riot intentionally balances the game around offense out-scaling defense. Buying resists like that is supposed to help you turtle up and survive when behind, but still fall off around late-mid game. They do this to prevent the 50 minute ward cheering sessions of S2. Unfortunately, snowball scales the winning team so much faster than the losing team that "turtling up" doesn't work anymore. which just makes defense items feel worse.

Stillname2 votes

They did actually speed up passive gold gen at the start of pre-season 5 (I think would have to go look through old patch notes to check)

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Then how do you explain Riot themselves saying they did the math and found that damage IS in fact higher than before which led to them nerfing damage amp masteries?

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Then how do you explain Riot themselves saying they did the math and found that damage IS in fact higher than before which led to them nerfing damage amp masteries?

I didn't say damage wasn't necessarily higher, I stated that it likely is but not significantly enough to make a difference. And I suspect the real problem is games pacing too quickly where durability feels less satisfying, not to mention durability when massively ahead is equally oppressive as damage when massively ahead. It's simply less noticeable.

Fisher No Chains2 votes

You know how to fix it? Buff vision again, make it as good as it was before.

Usually if you just die ONCE for your lack of vision, since death timers are insanely high nowadays, it means that you'll probably lose a turret or two, a lot of farm, be behind in levels compared to your opponent and also give them free gold for those turrets = easy snowball.

The reason the jungler role is so good right now is that with the removal of stealth wards, ganking lanes during the wards cds is extremely easy, and an early gank means that you either lose your lane/turret or just get camped forever until you're totally worthless.

I gave up on playing some immobile champs just because if I dare get that cs in the middle of my lane, I get instantly ganked by that Hecarim who just walked behind my wall where my only control ward couldn't reach him.

Melledoneus2 votes

I think minions hit tower resists way too hard. We could look at that.

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

Well made thread, I'll upvoted.

But just like to point it out that damage creep is not a myth, it's a well know term on game development and almost every persistent online game experience it throughout their lives, mmorpgs, online card games like hearthstone, and mobas as well.

You point it out that AD and AP values from items are almost the same but you forgot to look at all the champions scaling that went up, the % damage bonus from masteries as well outside from kit damage sources like thunderlord, that in itself has scaling.

You made some valid points in your argument and I agree the pacing need to be addressed still damage creep is a reality.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

that post needs less apologies and more facts/stats.

me personally i think it's just because base stats are hyperbolic, roles arent regulated, items arent balanced between defense and offense, and stats tend to scale multiplicative instead of additive when being combined.

sobi9992 votes

I believe all the changes riot has made have been intentional, to achieve their specific purpose, which they have been successful with. I don't want to tell riot how to make the changes but this is what i believe the majority of the player base wants.

  1. Less time in lane with taking CS, however if towers are buffed this will lead to a longer laning phase. I prefer the current laning phase i.e. 10-15 minutes but i really want longer games outside the laning phase. No idea if i am contradicting but it would be interesting if someone could propose a change to resolve this issue.

  2. More Team fights and hence longer games, preferably 30-40 minutes long.

  3. Less snowbally games i.e. one mistake doesn't cost you the whole game.

  4. Adc's bursting me faster than assassins.

DarkRitual1 votes

Yeah, all the %damage amps that got stuffed into the mastery trees didn't cause damage creep, and certainly didn't help speed the game up.

HateDaddy2 votes

Old mastery trees had %damage amps as well. In fact, the only thing new masteries are guilty of doing is giving tanks/supports damage they never should have had. Is that damage creep? I don't think so because it's only damage vs squishy targets, not tanky targets. Tanks and supports just wet noodle each other but its enough to kill squishy champions. And the fact Riot addressed this kind of tells me this wasn't an intended consequence. Things like mobility creep are and Riot has done very little to curve that. That's the big difference here.

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