@Meddler and @GB team, for the sake of gameplay health…

metaworldpeace10 · 2015-10-08T05:53:14.967Z

Instead of nerfing random FOTM champions and playing whack-a-mole, lets actually nerf champions that crowd out diversity. Veigar doesn't crowd out any picks, instead he increases diversity due to his unique playstyle. We can finally see come back into play to help "counter" Veigar. He's not crowding out picks, he's not overbearing or toxic to play against and he has pretty stark weaknesses that you can exploit. With all the mobility in the game, there are ways to reach him and kill him before he bursts one of your poor squishies down. Champions should be nerfed/buffed for the sake of increasing diversity. That's the ultimate goal, to allow as many champions, within their specific niches and matchups, to be played at as many levels of play as possible. Veigar is not dominating any specific elo and nor is he dominating the pick/ban of mod-lane matchups. Meanwhile we have picked or banned as ADC's in every single game and if they're not picked? and are the next "contested" picks. The rest of the ADC class is subpar to the aforementioned champions. I know that the Marksman rework is soon, but my point is that nerfing Veigar does little to nothing to promote diversity, whereas other champions that DO need nerfs like and have crowded out picks and are completely dominating their specific role for the past 5 months. You can make the same argument with the recent Juggernaught changes. TLDR: Don't nerf Veigar because he's the "new addition" to mid lane, nerf champions that crowd out diverse picks. For example and in the ADC role.

SirPacifistaOct 8, 20152 votes

Its fair and not toxic, you just need to not play stupid. i never lost a game against a Veigar (in the past MONTHS), you just need to go in full or not, and if you are low hp, dont stay in lane, just go back, even if you tower falls (since he would kill you and destroy your tower)

It reminds me of Garen from the juggernaut patch. You kill Garen in lane and he comes back and ruins you with his massive damage boost he gets for you beating him. Why did everyone get so upset over that debacle, yet its perfectly fine for Veigar?

Because he was a freaking tank, with 30% true damage and 100% true damage against the villain, did i meantion he was tanky? ohh and spin to win ;D

Let alone his free bonus AP. Everyone cried about how his Q was ruined in the rework when it was actually a massive buff. He can easily stack 100+ free AP before 20 minutes because he gets to stack two minions at once.

Interesting, but no, ever tried that? Try stacking 2 minions at once EVERY TIME, try doing that while getting harassed, in higher elos thats not possible. He is also fucking squishy and his E is useless against certain champions Zed Talon Fizz Katarina Ezreal etc.

He is balanced right now, he has weaknesses and strong points.

EedatOct 8, 20152 votes

Its fair and not toxic, you just need to not play stupid.

K. Tell me how you've dodged every cc in every game ever. Tell me how If someone else on the enemy team CC's you that isn't Veigar going to instagib you. Also, the enemy AP ratio on his ult is extremely toxic. It rewards Veigar for doing bad

Because he was a freaking tank, with 30% true damage and 100% true damage against the villain

The complaints about Garen specifically were that the mechanics on his ult rewarded Garen for playing poorly or getting beat in lane. Veigar is the same exact way. You beat him in lane and Veigar gets rewarded when you build your AP item for doing well.

Try stacking 2 minions at once EVERY TIME

It's stupid easy. I would say at least 75% of the time i can kill 2 minions with one Q. Easily

He is also fucking squishy and his E is useless against certain champions

You mean like how every AP mage is squishy? And I have no idea how you think Veigar's E is useless vs some of those champs. They have some of the most telegraphed movements. You know where Kat is going to be when she shunpos. You know where Zed is going to be when he ults. Ezreal's Shift cost 90 mana so if you can bait him to use it over and over he will be OOM fast

SirPacifistaOct 8, 20152 votes

K. Tell me how you've dodged every cc in every game ever. Tell me how If someone else on the enemy team CC's you that isn't Veigar going to instagib you. Also, the enemy AP ratio on his ult is extremely toxic. It rewards Veigar for doing bad

It rewards him for beeing bad? XD He is THE ANTI mage, if you go full ap, your own fault, if you buy inteligent, you will be rewarded.

You beat him in lane and Veigar gets rewarded when you build your AP item for doing well.

Its rather you get punished for beeing stupid, if you go FULL AP, against him, then ist your own fault. If i play against him i go (for example) item 3027 item 3001 and BAAM, he cant kill you. but if YOU go item 3089 item 3100 item 3152 item 3157 item 3135 item 3020 , because you killed him before... then yes, its because you are dumb, and Veigar should be able to kill you.

It's stupid easy. I would say at least 75% of the time i can kill 2 minions with one Q. Easily

Dont get me wrong, im a Veigar main, and i would say that im quite good with him, but if the enemy is at a higher elo, then you wont be able to do that most of the time (Not silver 3 or bronze, but at platinum+).

You mean like how every AP mage is squishy?

Dude, did you even read your comment? Which champion is so squishy as YOU say? Azir Ekko Diana Chogath Galio Katarina Malzahar Mordekaiser Morgana Vladimir Swain CAN and will mostly buy item 3001 item 3027 , and even perhaps item 3116 item 3065 and item 3102

And I have no idea how you think Veigar's E is useless vs some of those champs. They have some of the most telegraphed movements. You know where Kat is going to be when she shunpos. You know where Zed is going to be when he ults. Ezreal's Shift cost 90 mana so if you can bait him to use it over and over he will be OOM fast

You most be trolling right? no normal person can be THIS stupid... sooo, Zeds - Living Shadow is telegraphed? Katas - Shunpo is useless why? you use Event Horizon, she will shunpo a creeps to engage or flee(or you) you probably mean that she will ALWAYS shunpo you, even if you are in the cage (because else your comment would make no sense). Fizz - Playful / Trickster is also telegraphed? and the best

Ezreal's Shift cost 90 mana so if you can bait him to use it over and over he will be OOM fast

jeah... so... he doenst fight you in that time? i mean in your elo and skill level that might be true, that this oculd happen, but do you really belive a good player would do that? (and does he even have to use Shift EVERY time? Does he get ganked 10 times in 100 seconds for that?)

dude... these are your arguments? ....preeeeeeeetttttyyy weeeaaaakkkk ;D

VekknaOct 8, 20151 votes

But your argument is essentially "counterbuild to survive Veigar, thereby gimping your champ for the entire game against everyone on Veigar's team." The shorter version of that is "you're fucked."

Sorry, but spending 5000+ gold on your first two items is a death sentence for a huge chunk of mages that are reliant on CDR and/or item 3151 item 3116

And the fact of the matter is that Veigar doesn't need to win his lane to snowball out of control. It usually just takes a single teamfight to drop an E under the enemy team and collect free assists. Sort of like if Yasuo were a gnome.

SirPacifistaOct 9, 20152 votes

Sorry, but spending 5000+ gold on your first two items is a death sentence for a huge chunk of mages that are reliant on CDR and/or

i did mention item 3116 and item 3151 gives you hp too. so where is the problem? first item item 3174 and then proceed with care, NOT HARD and everyone does that against Veigar (most champions, Zed, yasou dont, since they dont need it.

You didnt said anything against my comment, you just said "counterbuild to survive Veigar, thereby gimping your champ for the entire game against everyone on Veigar's team." in which way? did i say buy item 3065 and item 3102 ? try reading before commenting...

And the fact of the matter is that Veigar doesn't need to win his lane to snowball out of control. You mean like Nasus or Tryn? Or Darius etc.? Thats normal, i know that hard for you at silver/bronze to believe, BUT you dont need to win your lane, you need to WIN THE GAME, and Veigar is good in teamfights if the enemy cant focus.

like i said, read my comment first, before you shout anything in the room without brain, dont be a little kid, who is angry at somebody YOU DONT UNDERSTAND, since you cant read.

VekknaOct 9, 20151 votes

like i said, read my comment first, before you shout anything in the room without brain, dont be a little kid, who is angry at somebody YOU DONT UNDERSTAND, since you cant read.

Goddam you're salty. Like wild banshee screeching level of salty as fuck. Get it together.

in which way? did i say buy and ?

No, you said build less AP, as though a great deal of champions can actually function without maximizing AP and/or capitalizing on item-based power spikes. Tell me all about your low-AP high-MR Katarina build that makes great use out of an Athene's.

SirPacifistaOct 9, 20152 votes

Tell me all about your low-AP high-MR Katarina build that makes great use out of an Athene's.

You... use Athene on Kata? yeah... i dont even know what to say here..... gj Vekkna, you are a pro! ;D

VekknaOct 9, 20151 votes

This is some Asperger's-level failure to detect sarcasm.

The point (which is obvious) is that Athene's isn't a viable item on many champs and a subpar waste of gold on most champs. So your solution of "just build an Athenes, you illiterate dumbass" is not a solution at all.

Nevermind the complete silliness of thinking that 25 MR is a silver bullet that neuter's Veigar's ulti. As I've already mentioned, 120+ MR and 3500+ hp didn't stop me from getting deleted with 2 spells as Singed building mostly tank.

SirPacifistaOct 9, 20151 votes

The point (which is obvious) is that Athene's isn't a viable item on many champs and a subpar waste of gold on most champs.

XD you must really learn to read, when did i say every champion can use it? See, never said that, also never said that would be enough so your

""So your solution of "just build an Athenes, you illiterate dumbass" is not a solution at all.""

is in every way wrong, i never said that, you are clearly intellectual as advances as a kidnergarten child... but cute that you try to say i said that (even through you can look up that i didnt)

As I've already mentioned, 120+ MR and 3500+ hp didn't stop me from getting deleted with 2 spells as Singed building mostly tank.

gj and? are you proud that he could kill you that easily?

dude, your solution is "NERF VEIGAR, IM TOO DUMB TO PLAY AGAINST HIM" (this is a deduction of your last posts)

dude, post whatever you want here, its not like anyone would listen to somebody so blind for obvious facts. So yes, forget everything i said to you, You will probably never be good at this game, and riot wont care that Veigar is strong in silver, why would they? You cant balance everything around the really bad players, that would make no sense...

so gj, you proved yourself to be not only ignorant to what others are proposing to you, you cant even read what they write, even less understand it... jeah... you can be proud... you can say you "WIN" this argument, since i will retreat, you are far away from beeing capable of conversation with different oppionions... (you remind me of a certain presidential candidate of yours, you can guess who xD )

jeah, jeah, you WIN, be proud of yourself and leave people who dont want to discuss things with retarded people alone... be proud you won ;D

SirPacifistaOct 8, 20152 votes

His ulti needs to be reworked to be honest. His ult contains an extremely toxic mechanic.

Which, its the same as 5 years ago.

You go back to buy and you get your normal Athene's and Luden's as your first two items. The reality is is that you just gave Veigar a ton more damage. Veigar's damage scales off of your AP as well. How is this fair? How does this make any sense what so ever? How is being punished for doing well a healthy mechanic?

Maybe because he has MANY WEAK POINTS and if oyu buy pure ap then its your own fault? (we can`t balance verything around bronze elo)

It reminds me of Garen from the juggernaut patch. You kill Garen in lane and he comes back and ruins you with his massive damage boost he gets for you beating him. Why did everyone get so upset over that debacle, yet its perfectly fine for Veigar?

Because Garen is a tank, with a slow, silence and true damage? Did i mention he is a viable tank?

Let alone his free bonus AP. Everyone cried about how his Q was ruined in the rework when it was actually a massive buff. He can easily stack 100+ free AP before 20 minutes because he gets to stack two minions at once.

Easy to say that he can get 2 stakcs with every q, ever did that in high elo? You dont get the freedom of position yourself nicely, or getting 2 stacks often. he indeed gets more AP than before after 20 min (even through 100 AP at 20 min was common before, he now just can farm FASTER, not better (since there are only 6-7 enemies per wave) BUT his E is still quite unreliable if the enemy is good, as if you would run blindly into it if you know that Veigar is before you.

It's fairly common to see a 1000 AP Veigar around 30-35 minutes now.

Jep, if he gets free farm (really free farm) and gets pure ap, then thats possible, and Garen/Darius/Nasus have like 4K health and 200 MR and Armor, so its quite balanced.

EDIT; Sry, double posted, website didnt refresh

VekknaOct 8, 20151 votes

if you buy pure ap then its your own fault?

It's called playing your champ. Champs are designed to function with certain items, and it's the definition of unhealthy design to force entire classes of champs to avoid building the items they're designed around.

If Veigar's so healthy, let's change Vayne's ulti to do 1% max hp damage to the target for each point of their armor. Sounds fair, right?

SirPacifistaOct 9, 20152 votes

Are you perhaps an idiot? Against Veigar you get rewarded for buying MR, is that so hard for Silver III? If you go full Ap, then everythings that touches you will kill you, and Veigar is just amplifiing that, thats not unfair (he is so since season 1 dude)

If Veigar's so healthy, let's change Vayne's ulti to do 1% max hp damage to the target for each point of their armor. Sounds fair, right?

YOU must be an IDIOT, in this scenario you would be punished for building AGAINST her, not rewarded (which you are against Veigar)

But hey, must be too hard for you, you even builded item 3031 item 3072 item 3046 item 3035 with Draven, jeah you are a pro, did you the enemy Zed was op for killing you in 2 sec? dude, learn to play, and what to buy, it not that hard, even if you are silver/bronze.

EDIT :

It's called playing your champ. Champs are designed to function with certain items, and it's the definition of unhealthy design to force entire classes of champs to avoid building the items they're designed around.

NO THEY ARE NOT, if you arent adaptive stop playing league, you need brain to survive, which you definitly dont have, i dont go item 3089 only because it works with Vlad and many others, that would be stupid.

VekknaOct 9, 20151 votes

Ok, I'm going to break this down for you even further because you're having a super duper hard time understanding a elementary point: AP-reliant champs need to build lots of AP to be effective, and avoiding AP means they will be weak throughout the game and scale horribly. Nothing about that is hard to understand.

If you go full Ap, then everythings that touches you will kill you, and Veigar is just amplifiing that, thats not unfair (he is so since season 1 dude)

Yeah, this is 100% not true when you're snowballing hard. When you're a couple levels and a few thousand gold ahead of the enemy team, it's really easy to not die against a lot of 1v1 and 1v2s. It's also really easy to not die if you have great sustain like Cassiopeia Vladimir etc.

Beyond that, nothing is "pure AP" once it's finished. AP cores include other necessary stats, like armor, hp, and CDR. Nobody thinks "oh shit, they have a Rengar jungle, so I'll build a Zhonya's for the AP."

YOU must be an IDIOT, in this scenario you would be punished for building AGAINST her, not rewarded (which you are against Veigar)

Again, you're missing the point of super easy concepts. Veigar is "anti-mage." Mages build AP, and Veigar scales off my AP; therefore, counterbuilding to Veigar involves building less AP. Hopefully you managed to stick with me this far. I know it's a struggle.

Vayne is "anti-tank." Tanks build armor. If Vayne were designed like Veigar, Vayne would be able to burst tanks faster when they stacked armor. The only way for a tank to avoid dying faster to Vayne would be avoiding armor, which completely negates their ability to tank. I assume you're lost by now.

In other words, it's shitty design when counterbuilding requires you to hobble your only purpose for existing in the game. Try building Syndra, for example with a item 3001 item 3174 item 3060 item 3111 and tell me how well you can do at fulfilling your sole purpose of killing shit.

And beyond that, "build MR" still isn't even counterbuilding Veigar, as a recent game on Singed demonstrated. I had over 3500 hp, only around 450 AP, full tank masteries, and over 120 MR. I got insta-gibbed by an R>Q from Veigar late game. His ulti did over 2500 damage from a single skill against a tank.

NO THEY ARE NOT, if you arent adaptive stop playing league, you need brain to survive, which you definitly dont have,

Since you mentioned Vlad, I wonder how well you think he would do if he couldn't build item 3152 or item 3157 . It's almost like he has a designed synergy with those items! So let's just say that if Vlad buys he can now be 1-shot. Sounds really fair, right?

SirPacifistaOct 9, 20152 votes

I understand how you play ap mids, but as when you play against Zed, it wont work withour resistance.... how often do i need to say that?

You want to win with Vlad against Veigar? Why is that hard?

item 3158 item 3001 item 3152 item 3157 item 3065 + item 3089 / item 3135 . You will never get stunned, since oyu have a great engage/disengage, which completly ignores Veigars Stun. You have FAR MORE sustain than Veigar in lane, and your will make you incredibly tanky against ap Mages ( And gives you more Damage and more heal)

AP-reliant champs need to build lots of AP to be effective, and avoiding AP means they will be weak throughout the game and scale horribly. Nothing about that is hard to understand.

jeah... must be that.... item 3001 item 3116 item 3151 item 3027 item 3040 must set you back soooo much as ap carry...

Vayne is "anti-tank." Tanks build armor. If Vayne were designed like Veigar, Vayne would be able to burst tanks faster when they stacked armor. The only way for a tank to avoid dying faster to Vayne would be avoiding armor, which completely negates their ability to tank. I assume you're lost by now.

No, she an anti tank, but tankiness means in her concept max health, not armor (dude you really didnt know that)? Only because its true damage doesnt mean that armor is completly useless against her. KogMaw and Ammumu are also anti tanks, and enemys get punished for heaving high health and low MR So why is that strange for Veigar to punish people with high ap and low mr?

ALSO, do you really think its toxic that Veigar is able to kill most ap champions? I mean then Galio would be unfair too, because he can counter most ap mids as well. Counters are meant to be counters, if you fight against Zed, learn to buy item 3157 fast, else its YOUR OWN FAULT if his ult is killing you.

VekknaOct 9, 20151 votes

Ok, I'm going to teach you something about discourse. Examples, analogies, and hypotheticals are tools used to illustrate an argument. When I use an analogy about Vayne or a hypothetical about Vlad, it is to demonstrate a concept.

I'll keep unpacking this for you because you can't do it for yourself. Yes, I'm aware of how Silver Bolts work, and it has nothing to do with my analogy. The purpose of the analogy is to highlight a design concept that applies to Veigar and apply that concept to other types of "counters." Specifically, AP champs require AP to do their job. Veigar does more damage to an AP champ when they are building to accomplish their purpose. I think that's bad.

To demonstrate how utterly ridiculous that design concept is, I applied the concept to Vayne. In the analogy, a "tank-shredder" Vayne would be able to kill tanks faster as the tanks built tankier. Currently, Vayne does more damage to tanks than to squishies because of % max hp. She can also kill built tanks faster than most other champs can kill tanks because of her % true damage. The distinction here is that building tanker against Vayne still means she will kill you slower than she would otherwise. Regardless, Silver Bolts is generally considered toxic because tanks don't get enough benefit from building armor and hp.

So if a tank's purpose is to be tanky, it's bad design for Vayne to be able to kill them faster after the tank builds a Randuin's. Right? If you carry that logic over to mages, a mage's purpose is to deal damage. It's equally bad design for Veigar to be able to kill a mage faster after the mage builds a Luden's.

Hopefully we're getting somewhere. So the hypothetical involving Vlad was to undermine you're totally preposterous statement that champs aren't designed around specific items. That's an obviously stupid statement, so I pointed out that Vlad is a glaring, obvious example of a champ whose function depends on specific items.

If a hypothetical champ existed that made it impossibly risky for Vlad to build WOTA, he would be unable to perform well. If the hypothetical enemy laner forced him to modify his build to survive laning, Vlad would then be at a massive disadvantage in skirmishes with the enemy jungler, mid, and bot laners. It's something he needs, and not being able to build it would cripple him for the rest of the game.

And that's exactly what Veigar does when he forces a champ to build item 3174 item 3001 instead of item 3165 item 3285 . You're now behind on AP by a full item 1058 which is the difference between getting kills and enemies getting away. Meanwhile that 75 MR doesn't benefit you at all when skirmishing with anyone else on the map. You're just at a disadvantage because Veigar is on the map. Full stop.

It's completely legit to have to build MR against enemies when they're doing well. But if you're shutting them down in lane and doing well yourself, it's unhealthy design that you have to stop your snowball in its tracks and build defense and less offense to avoid being punished for your success.

DrCyanideOct 8, 20151 votes

First off, players complained about the Q change because of the decreased harass potential during laning phase. Those going against Veigar were willing to stop being harassed in lane in exchange for Veigar getting more AP overall. Veigar players now don't try to harass but stay as far back as possible and farm with it, and if you let them farm with it you've got issues.

Secondly, you know Veigar has locked onto you if you're an AP champion. He won't ult the ADC or the support if he sees a nice juicy AP Mid Laner on the screen he might be able to ult in a few seconds. Use that against him. Tempt him with dreams of 100-0ing you, get him to make dumb plays or hold that ult trying to use it on you until someone on your team can stun him and everyone deletes him before he can fire it.

Third, the OP is spot on about long range mages being a counter to Veigar. He's got to get very close to utilize his ultimate on you, while you can cut his HP down from a safe range. Xerath and Lux can burst Veigar down before he gets into range if they know what they're doing. Yes, he remains a threat all game long regardless of how well you did against him, but that's no different than a utility based champion.

Now, I do think that the free AP from assists may be overkill at this point. It rewards Veigar too much for simply showing up to a teamfight. Did you know that if he gets his box around you, but doesn't stun you, it still gives him an assist? Great mechanic that other abilities should probably also have, but it makes the AP Stacking a bit too strong.

I suspect that Veigar's AP from Kill/Assist on Champions will be nerfed a bit, possibly scaling with his level rather than the level of his Q. This makes it less "Veigar got some kills/assists around level 8-9 now he's a monster" and more of a "it's late game and each bloody teamfight makes things a little bit worse than it otherwise would".

@Meddler and @GB team, for the sake of gameplay health, please do not nerf Veigar

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