I miss moments of weakness in LoL

XJ99999999999999··81 votes·15,761 views

When cdr wasn't so easily obtainable and a must or you'll get blown over by other 30-45% cdr champions. I remember back in the day if you saw a champion use an ability, you knew if you went in then it wouldn't be back up during a gank/teamfight unless they played well and lasted long during the fight.

I remember jungling and waiting a bit away from a lane, perhaps farming, and seeing a laner use a big key ability, like Vlad pool. You used to be able to run over and gank and kill them. Now you are forced to literally sit at the edge of a bush and go the instant they use that ability, so it's just rng at that point/a bit of guesswork which lessens skill.

It's just hilarious how for example in one of my games Fizz used ult to kill someone and a bit later my ally is fighting Fizz who showed up to the lane to cover. My ally says "he has no ult" and as soon as he types it the fizz ult comes out. It's like a joke honestly because he literally just used it and it's up already?

Masteries like ult hunter/presence of mind are just icing on the cake honestly.

Sometimes it just feels like CDR was just slapped on items just for the hell of it. I'd be ok with cdr and champions have 30-45% cdr if they had to sacrifice damage/HP/armor/mr for it instead of getting all the stats they want + cdr. This type of stuff limits item diversity. No one builds armor in this game yet everyone builds black cleaver... Why? Because it gives 20% CDR for 3k gold and has good stats. If the CDR didn't exist on cleaver, then you'd have a choice between steraks vs cleaver 1st as an item or other items.

For example, I play quite a bit of Aatrox and I noticed no one builds armor on the enemy team ever, so I decided to go steraks and then cleaver. But then I realized I was underperforming because champions are balanced around having 40-45% cdr instead of their base values so I just got slaughtered. Too bad steraks doesn't have 10-20% cdr slapped onto it for good measure like cleaver does. It just feels bad you can't build smart against enemies anymore due to this.

Sometimes I wonder if the game would be healthier if CDR was just removed from items and only made on items designed to give you CDR and little of other things you'd want, making diverse play styles/builds.

In Dota 2, cdr is such a luxery stat. You have to pay a boat load of money for it and last I saw there was only 1-2 items that gave CDR and they costed 5-6k gold (it's a top tier late game item). In dota 2, when you saw a champion use an ability, you knew it wasn't gonna be up for a while and that is there moment of weakness, while still making the champion feel impactful to play for when you use that big ability.

In Dota 2, mana costs are a huge deal, people min max and switch their style of boots on the fly (theres 3 different ones) just to save 2-5 mana at times, because every amount matters in that game. In League, you can have someones mana bar be 1/12th of an inch and they can cast 1, sometimes 2 abilities? Like where are the moments of weakness?

I just feel like a lot of skill from League has been taken away with so many changes, just like the trinket change which makes vision hard to obtain and ganks/counter ganks just being by chance per game instead of a calculated thing.

36 Comments

Saianna24 votes

I remember times when CDR was mostly mage (and tank) stat, similar like crit is for ADCs.

Now you end up overflowing with CDR just on any champion

Pierce The Veal7 votes

I remember that too. If you wanted CDR on actually any class (even mages) you would have to sacrifice some other stats.

FSRER1 votes

And back then, the only exception for that, was Trinity which used to have crit on it. Indeed, good days.

LunarFoxz15 votes

Dont forget about transcendence, to put that overflowing CDR to use, While not having to change ur build path AT ALL. thx Rioto

Ravenous Howls3 votes

{quoted}

Dont forget about transcendence, to put that overflowing CDR to use, While not having to change ur build path AT ALL. thx Rioto

Old runes and masteries you could take up to 20% cdr. This new system is not much different the real problem is the item cdr saturation. We did not have so many items with cdr back in the earlier seasons. It's responsible for the current state of the game.

Lovelle2 votes

I was one of the players that used to do that. You had to make tradeoffs for that CDR back then, especially before keystones were added to the game.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

I was one of the players that used to do that. You had to make tradeoffs for that CDR back then, especially before keystones were added to the game.

I would never take more than 10% myself as a Nasus main but the option was there.

FSRER2 votes

If you picked 20% cdr runes you wouldn't have defences, ability power or damage so you had to sacrifice damage to get it.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

If you picked 20% cdr runes you wouldn't have defences, ability power or damage so you had to sacrifice damage to get it.

I never said you didn't sacrifice anything for doing this I just was making the point you could get that same cdr before. You still sacrifice things in the new system as well if you want to be technical. You sacrifice the same damage or resistances for taking cdr in runes reforged as you did the old system.

Daddy Ants13 votes

I miss when scaling champions were actually weak early.

Jax Jinx Sivir in particular.

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

jax actually is. the rest i agree with tho lol

voidscaler2 votes

He really really isn't

Dukues6 votes

{quoted}

I miss when scaling champions were actually weak early.

Jax Jinx Sivir in particular.

Vayne

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

Vayne

Yep.

Ravenborn9 votes

Exactly, runes reforged were the worst thing that EVER happened to this game, it was the moment this game became a place of ruination. Nowdays there is not really much to think about compared to the past like you don't have to think to play, there is no strategy anymore, the only thing is wave management and that's it. I hate to say it but Dota2 is making wonders on thinking and playing with strategy like it's incredible how many tacticts exist in that game compared to League nowdays..

Lusty Elven Maid4 votes

It's all for the sake of making the game more exciting to watch. More spells being thrown around and active fights make the game more dynamic... for the better or worse.

Catchamp4 votes

Its always for the worse. Its just riot apealing to the crowds of esports watchers because they dont think that people care about strategy they just wanna see the best micro players in the world smash akali into riven over and over in a fucking anime battle or some shit.

LordGeovanni3 votes

item 3071 has shit stats besides its 20% cdr and armor pen its so significant that it hurts even when people arent building armor

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

I just feel like a lot of skill from League has been taken away with so many changes, just like the trinket change which makes vision hard to obtain and ganks/counter ganks just being by chance per game instead of a calculated thing.

Hard disagree with this. If anything, vision was much easier back in the day. With no limits to wards AND wards being dirt cheap (even for the goldless supports), vision was not the least bit engaging nor skill-intensive. Now with wards, you really have to watch what you ward and you're forced to make choices: Do I ward baron or do I ward the entrance to our mid so we can't get ganked? Even if it's free, the lack of wards means you pay more for mistakes.

As for moments of weakness: Blame the community for that one. The constant demand that champions ALWAYS feel good and Riot catering to that demand has dilluted actual weakness. See the same thing with new Kayle: "She's SO BAD EARLY buff her!!!" despite her main goal being a hypercarry.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

In small fairness with the Kayle point, most of those 'buf early plz' comments typically came with an admission to lower her late game. That said however, I'm not blind to the fact that Kayle is meant to be designed around that hypercarry status, and that buffing her early in exchange for her late, just homogenizes (is that the word) the champion with every other.

It's kinda like that delayed reward mental thing, where it's hard for folk to put aside immediate satisfaction for an earlier reward or something akin, even if the reward for waiting is greater. It hits the issue of what matters more; The designer's intentions or the experience? Like when XCOM 2 added in mission timers, because they wanted to push the player to take more risks, which is arguably when the game is at it's best, as opposed to XCOM: EU, 'Move forward, Overwatch, repeat till mission won'.

Players didn't like the game telling them how to play, despite the designers believing the game to be best experienced when the player is forced to take risks. They want it their way, their fun.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nIE6wM7E,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-06-07T07:24:30.572+0000)

In small fairness with the Kayle point, most of those 'buf early plz' comments typically came with an admission to lower her late game. That said however, I'm not blind to the fact that Kayle is meant to be designed around that hypercarry status, and that buffing her early in exchange for her late, just homogenizes (is that the word) the champion with every other.

That's specifically the point though. Kayle has a massive powerspike, yet people would iron out her curve in favor of "having a champion that's decent at all stages". Renekton used to be a monster early but fell off hard. Now he's decent at all stages. Caitlyn used to be great early. Vayne used to be terrible early. Riot has slowly ironed out any sort of curve, spike or drop-off in favor of things being fun "So we have fun at all stages". That's poison. There SHOULD be champions who are bad early but great late. Otherwise you get everyone playing the same.

Players didn't like the game telling them how to play, despite the designers believing the game to be best experienced when the player is forced to take risks.

That's understandable, but if you don't take a stand and fight players at certain points, you end up with a milquetoast experience that attempts to cater to as many people as possible.

DOTA, in OP's descrip, is like that because Icefrog said "fuck it" to anyone who is bad at the game. This is why DOTA is how it is: Heroes have 60%+ winrates but nobody bats an eye because they're perfectly balanced in most cases. Riot bows to the masses and normal players and thus is how we have situations where hypocrisy is king.

"Viktor top and Sona/Taric bot is poison for the game but I miss when you could be unique with positions." "Sustain and early game is too strong but I want to feel good at all stages of the game." "Fuck the pros ruining my game but also Riot should balance around good players like me."

They want it their way, their fun.

When you have 10 different people each giving a different definition of what is "fun", you'll end up pleasing 3 of them, leaving 3 happy but wanting changes, having 3 who are neutral and 1 who will absolutely fucking despise you.

Power Mac2 votes

Just two words: Lux's R.

xDogMeatx1 votes

i tried maxmium cdr build on a 1v5 bots game its at most 40 seconds to ult (majority of ults except lux)

Z3Sleeper1 votes

I mean, if you're Karthus sure.

xDogMeatx1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, if you're Karthus sure.

Karth still has a cool down due to his massive initial to 2/3ish minute cool down (didn't look at ultimate CD stats recently)

Lo4ding20 votes

There are a lot of champs whos ultimate is joke with 45% cd and ultimate hunter (not talking about presence of mind). Gnar can use his ultimate twice in one transformation. Zed's ultimate have freakin 25 seconds cooldown on 16th level. Malphite is sitting on 36 sec ulti. With presence of mind you can use your ultimate twice in a little longer teamfight.

I do think that CDR should be much more valuable than it is today. Back in season 1-2 there were like 2 items that gave 20% cdr if i recall correctly.

But at the end of the day, you cant make flashy plays in pro scene if you have 15 sec cd on all abilities.

xDogMeatx1 votes

{quoted}

There are a lot of champs whos ultimate is joke with 45% cd and ultimate hunter (not talking about presence of mind). Gnar can use his ultimate twice in one transformation. Zed's ultimate have freakin 25 seconds cooldown on 16th level. Malphite is sitting on 36 sec ulti. With presence of mind you can use your ultimate twice in a little longer teamfight.

I do think that CDR should be much more valuable than it is today. Back in season 1-2 there were like 2 items that gave 20% cdr if i recall correctly.

But at the end of the day, you cant make flashy plays in pro scene if you have 15 sec cd on all abilities.

I tried 45% cdr with ultimate hunter it's loses tower pressure demolish is too good and transcendence is godly.

oriannashutsdown1 votes

do u think u can hit rank 1 again?

Cronofuge1 votes

But wait boards says this is the damage meta and you blow people up in .25 seconds so you do honestly even need to worry about their cds?

(post is satirical)

Pierce The Veal1 votes

This post is too detailed for something out of an XJ9 clone. What a heretic.

Jennifer4201 votes

if you miss being weak and not getting much out of cdr, play adc lul

Kazekiba1 votes

Im relieved Repertoire is looking to take CDR out of item 3001 for this reason.

Hope they do for more items in the future

5050BS1 votes

Then they let CT make Yasuo and it all went to shit.

FeuerMarke1 votes

I just came back last month after taking a break for a few years. The very first thing I noticed was how ridiculous it was to be able to have CD reduction now. It has really changed which champs I play.

Shiroyashayami1 votes

I even knew for how long Zed won't have his shadow up, so I could outplay it, but now he is running with 30-40% cdr and it doesn't matter if I learn about my enemy, unless I put even more effort and do math during a match. "Oh, now he has 10% cdr so his shadow will be up in ..... oh I am dead". And 10% is ok, but fuck, why 30-40%?

Dreadlocks1 votes

Kinda lost me when you started comparing to Mana in Dota.. I've played dota for a few years as well and i can tell you mana is generally only an issue early game or on str heroes. Around mid game it becomes less tedious to manage. Furthermore, there are plenty of items that give mana/mana regen to make it even easier. Heroes that are INT based build.. INT items which just further increases their mana pool for more spells..

I think Ult CDs could be increased almost as a whole. Things like Shen ult still have obvious amounts of down time.. But a lot of others have lost that.

More from Gameplay

More by XJ99999999999999