Riot : "Aatrox is too unhealthy we have to keep nerfing him after we buff him"

XJ99999999999999·Oct 13, 2019·56 votes·16,719 views

Also riot : but vlad is ok and it's ok if he has an ability that makes him untargable + deal damage and can combo it with zhonyas and both zhonyas and pool combo well with his abilities and passive.

i dont get it. a champion with ranged and can heal 1k+ easily is beyond broken for the longest time, free elo, yet it isnt an issue.

i mean it doesnt honestly surprise me, they are the skin balance team for a reason, and gotta keep lcs flashy with all the "risky" plays and high damage (chinese pc cafes)

I remember when Vlad was the terrible early, ok mid, and good late game TEAM FIGHT ONLY champion. .But now he just demonlishes ur ass 1v1 because CDR is broken and vlad is broken.

"apply grrevious woundS" good idea, I can totally apply it as soon as he comes out of pool/zhonyas before he heals a juicy 1k+ . good idea.

72 Comments

DosthebossOct 13, 201924 votes

When someone is talking about unhealthy champions, i would list like 20+ before getting to aatrox...

ChalzeOct 13, 20197 votes

Lemme guess, at least 10 of those are from the latest champion releases

SaezioOct 13, 201923 votes

Is Vladimir a pro problem?

Aatrox was too much of a safe lane bully, that's why he got gutted.

Vladimir can be destroyed in lane, and takes at least 2 items to be somewhat threatening.

If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially

Hi im 12Oct 13, 20195 votes

I mean I haven't watched any pro play for a very long time but I feel like vlad is probably played a shitload in pro

ModCaliCoastReplayOct 13, 20199 votes

I have been binge-watching Worlds 2019, and Vladimir is currently pick-or-ban in an astonishing number of games at this Worlds across pretty much all of League's regions worldwide.

I don't know that I'd go with "a problem" - he doesn't seem to be too applecart-upsetting there and seems balanced, if extremely powerful. But he's def among the best champs to take to any pro match lately, at least if the choices of current pros seem to be any indication.

As a bit of history, Vladimir is a really cool unique champion but has always presented balance problems for the game. As I understand it, he's the main reason Spellvamp was largely eliminated as a concept and we all can't buy things like Will of the Ancients anymore - which is unfortunate in my opinion as the replacements ( item 3812 item 3146 ) kind of fell into that role by accident and as a result have introduced balance problems across a wide variety of champions.

Bear in mind, this isn't a diss at the balance team from me - I have worked on making games myself before, and it is a lot harder to successfully balance a game than people think. I think Vladimir is a wonderful unique champion that adds a lot to the game. He's just...really hard to balance. Drain tanking as a concept is really hard to balance - this is a main reason Swain utterly mutated last year as well - and is the king of that particular hill and in some sense often feels very bad to lose to as a result.

BestPudgeNAOct 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-13T12:14:44.376+0000)

I mean I haven't watched any pro play for a very long time but I feel like vlad is probably played a shitload in pro

Vlad been basically the same champ in pros for a couple of years now. He only isn't pick/ban because other stuff is often more broken and he doesn't fit all team comps due to really needing to hit 2 items. But when teams pick him in the correct spot he pretty much always 1 v 9s with no counterplay whatsoever.

On top of that EU and NA pick him less then CN and KR and the balance team never pays attention to those regions for pro balance for some odd reason.

iDarkWindOct 13, 201910 votes

That's simply not true. Vlad early game clearly isn't good by any means, but one of the biggest strenghts that I think he has is that altough he is a mid / late game champion he does not suffer as much as others late game champions during laning phase, because of his sustain. It is not that simple to bully a good Vladimir during the early game. Also, the "takes at least 2 items to come online" is not true unless the items you're speaking off are item 3108 + item 3067 . With only those two components he almost denies his early game weakness and proceed to simply Q the minions and survive until mid and late game.

Obviously that his sustain does not deny his weakness when it comes to early game squirmishes and roams, but he's one of the safest scaling champions in the game, in my opinion.

SaezioOct 13, 20197 votes

Any early lane bully(think Darius Renekton Garen Riven Kennen Pantheon Tryndamere )+ competent jungler pressure for 3 minutes (3min-6mins or so) can make the vlad useless.

The key is to be constantly all ining in the early phases when vlad has Q only level 1,2 or 3. This way you end up with such a humongous advantage at level 9 (when vlad becomes a champion) that you can even then all in him at every opportunity.

iDarkWindOct 13, 20197 votes

Ah, I mean you're talking about Vladimir Top, then yes, it works a litlle bit different, but as long as Vlad is capable of freezing close to his turrent he should be alright. But yes, in top lane he loses a lot because of his weakness to most bruisers all ins. In the mid lane works a bit different because the lane is much shorter and I think that the best Vlad is mid Vlad for sure.

SaezioOct 13, 20195 votes

Mid Akali Leblanc Irelia Orianna Zed Talon Neeko Zoe

They just destroy him in lane. You just need to perma all in him. He can't do anything early, ANYTHING

ModCaliCoastReplayOct 13, 20198 votes

A lot of laners can starve Vladimir in both mid and top early on, but the fact that he is a flex pick and you don't always know where he's going (in pros he's even played as a botlane carry from time to time) means it's not always trivial to ensure a counterpick.

SaezioOct 13, 20195 votes

You can send your counter to vlad's lane? like what? If he goes top to avoid the zed, you send the zed top

ModCaliCoastReplayOct 13, 20197 votes

I mean, teams with active, polished teamwork can certainly lane swap.

Solo queue though... I don't mean to be negative, but things are what they are in solo pubs sometimes. :)

SaezioOct 13, 20194 votes

I just come from a mindset that what you said is no reason to nerf a champion.

I can see how Vlad maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but I don't believe he should be pushed to need 3 complete items+ boots to be on line in this meta .

Not even the "late game ADCs" need 3 complete items to be relevant and they are so easy to force feed (almost funnel)

EonslegacyOct 14, 20194 votes

Please dont send a zed against a vlad if you want to win.

SucctionOct 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You can send your counter to vlad's lane? like what? If he goes top to avoid the zed, you send the zed top

Although you make a great point with sending counters, I'd say Zed definitely gets countered BY Vlad, rather than the other way around.

iDarkWindOct 13, 20193 votes

Hmm, that looks good on the paper but that's not how it works actually. Most of those champions you listened do not really counter Vladimir, especially Zed and Akali. https://u.gg/lol/champions/vladimir/matchups

Minimac2000Oct 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Ah, I mean you're talking about Vladimir Top, then yes, it works a litlle bit different, but as long as Vlad is capable of freezing close to his turrent he should be alright. But yes, in top lane he loses a lot because of his weakness to most bruisers all ins. In the mid lane works a bit different because the lane is much shorter and I think that the best Vlad is mid Vlad for sure.

I completely disagree mid vlad has to deal with champions that can actually out range or match range and deal with him by superior damage Top, half the time he plays the lane out as a lane bully, bc playing melees in this game sucks ass, while scaling into an unkillable monster

BestPudgeNAOct 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

That's simply not true. Vlad early game clearly isn't good by any means, but one of the biggest strenghts that I think he has is that altough he is a mid / late game champion he does not suffer as much as others late game champions during laning phase, because of his sustain. It is not that simple to bully a good Vladimir during the early game. Also, the "takes at least 2 items to come online" is not true unless the items you're speaking off are + . With only those two components he almost denies his early game weakness and proceed to simply Q the minions and survive until mid and late game.

Obviously that his sustain does not deny his weakness when it comes to early game squirmishes and roams, but he's one of the safest scaling champions in the game, in my opinion.

Ganking/bullying Vlad in the early game isn't how you abuse his weak early game. Vlad's waveclear is beyond garbage and it's about shoving him in and roaming.

Charmy BirdOct 13, 201913 votes

{quoted}

Is Vladimir a pro problem?

Aatrox was too much of a safe lane bully, that's why he got gutted.

Vladimir can be destroyed in lane, and takes at least 2 items to be somewhat threatening.

If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially

If he is mid he is legit ungankable with his w.

SaezioOct 13, 20195 votes

If he is mid, why is your midlaner not 1v1 murdering him?

Akali Leblanc Qiyana Zed Talon Fizz Orianna

Anyone can 1v1 him or make him back like so many times he is extremely behind in CS AND XP

Hi im 12Oct 13, 201916 votes

the fact that you think zed and akali beat vlad is hilarious

EonslegacyOct 14, 20195 votes

akali can win if vlad shoves, its entirely in vlads hands if he dies. zed never wins ever. Need some ridiculous build like static shiv Ie essence reaver with hail of blades and a w max or something ludicrous. Even being fed doesnt work sadly.

VanCanBanManOct 15, 20191 votes

Crit Zed HoB W-Max? I like it

EonslegacyOct 14, 20192 votes

Vlad is weak enough to not need be ganked in the mid lane. He doesnt threaten most mid laners unless he is far past the half way point of lane, then if you cant gank him your just a terrible jungler taht has 0 skill and is playing some seriously off meta crap. Vlad can kinda counter assasins. thats kinda his roll. But he does so by being a big threat in teamfights, because he cant stop them from roaming which is WHY you pick assasins.

Magnesium14Oct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially

im sorry jungles exist using jungle pressure as a counter is non existant I wont respond to anything else cause its just fake

MetalGearTeemoOct 15, 20191 votes

Replace vlad with Garen.

Then look at the forums.

Then ask yourself "Should I ever listen to the forums?"

SaezioOct 15, 20191 votes

I don't get what you are talking about.

Buffed garen hasn't even hit pro patch.

Also vlad is a late game scaling champion contrary to garen who can even be considered a lane bully in many matchups.

I am not listening to the forums. I am trying to provide an unbiased opinion that is mostly influenced by the opinions of challenger players, analysts and generally people that are top top tier at the game.

Moody POct 13, 20199 votes

I liked playing as/against old Vladimir better. It was cool being a DPS AOE drain monster; now hes just vampire Annie. Kinda lame

AätroxOct 13, 20197 votes

#RevertAatroxOrFixHimFFS

Sewer SideOct 13, 20192 votes

He’s balanced now though?

It’s a hard concept to grasp because he’s been broken most of his rework, but he’s good and fine now

Jennifer420Oct 13, 20196 votes

even IF you apply wounds to vlad, what does it matter? oh he only heals 600 instead of 1k while also taking half my hp bar at the same time. THAT WAS 800g WORTH INVESTED!!!

EonslegacyOct 14, 20193 votes

400 damage, every single q? for 800 gold? would you rather spend 3.7k on trinity force to add 400 to your FULL rotation instead? Ends with the same result. Grievous wounds is about theoretical damage. Vs mundo, vlad and lifestealers like aatrox or fid, 800 gold gives a unique passive that does 1 or 2k damage by itself. thats like if serrated dirk said, Do 500 bonus damage on your first auto attack vs any champion with mana, 20 second cooldown. Yes it doesnt feel the same, no it cant actually physically KILL them, but it can be WHY they died.

SucctionOct 13, 20194 votes

Dunno how he's free elo when Vlad top is currently sitting at 48.2% wr plat+ on op.gg

Aight tho

LightswornLanceOct 13, 20195 votes

Makes sense because ranged top lane players are usually terrible at the game.

SucctionOct 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Makes sense because ranged top lane players are usually terrible at the game.

It's also because Vlad top is just genuinely not good outside of competitive.

Take this from a Vlad player who has tried him extensively in both mid and top.

He is a 6.5/10 in strength in mid, 5 being average 50% wr. He's like a 4/10 top lane, though you could very easily give him a 9/10 for annoyance.

ZeyphelOct 13, 20193 votes

Who said it was Vladimir top? Vladimir Mid is the problem, not top.

SucctionOct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Who said it was Vladimir top? Vladimir Mid is the problem, not top.

Yeah, but it isn't.

Vladimir mid has clear counterplay and weaknesses that he doesn't have in top.

He's not a strong mid laner due to the lack of waveclear, range, cc, engage, or utility of any bloody kind beyond high damage.

He is entirely damage, and it's your job as the opposing mid laner to abuse his weak early game and roam to close in the game before he gets strong enough to oppose you.

EonslegacyOct 14, 20192 votes

Top vlad is trash tbh. He just has potential to be a carry late game, and frees up mid for an ad unit.

BestPudgeNAOct 13, 20193 votes

W Fiddlesticks Is the hard counter to Vlad

You're welcome

Spooky SkeletonOct 14, 20191 votes

It keeps damaging him in his pool sure, but unless you got morello and enough ap to actually outdps his healing it's kinda irrelevant that you immobilize yourself to give him the succ.

EonslegacyOct 14, 20193 votes

But but.. fear. immobilizies vlad and then the dark wind silences him. Feels like vlad loses all fights here.

BestPudgeNAOct 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spooky Skeleton,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-10-14T02:46:07.240+0000)

It keeps damaging him in his pool sure, but unless you got morello and enough ap to actually outdps his healing it's kinda irrelevant that you immobilize yourself to give him the succ.

Vlad losses the 1 v 1 hard. Fiddle 3 of 5 ticks W is better then a Vlad empowered Q. You only need to stay out of one shot territory and Fid has plenty of good ways to build enough MR/HP to avoid the 1 shot. Fid Q is also really good for denying Vlad what he wants to do in teamfights.

EonslegacyOct 14, 20192 votes

YESSSS someone gets it! FEAR ME

Charmy BirdOct 13, 20192 votes

Let's not forget Diana BTW this champ can legit 100-0 you in less than a second even if she isn't fed. Her powers pike is at lvl 6. She seriously needs some gutting in her dmg.

Aatrox EichmannOct 13, 20192 votes

they nerfed him cus he could be a 3 way flex from top-jung-mid. same reason why they want to gut Sylas from jg, that champ is just way too easy and braindead to be let freefarm just bypassing his laning phase. But then they buff ekko, who is now a 3-way flex and ignore pyke, a possible 4-way flex because he is braindead broken and extends snowball leads

Minimac2000Oct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aatrox Eichmann,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-10-13T23:21:31.299+0000)

they nerfed him cus he could be a 3 way flex from top-jung-mid. same reason why they want to gut Sylas from jg, that champ is just way too easy and braindead to be let freefarm just bypassing his laning phase. But then they buff ekko, who is now a 3-way flex and ignore pyke, a possible 4-way flex because he is braindead broken and extends snowball leads

Pyke can't be flexed, he has literally negative waveclear

Aatrox EichmannOct 15, 20191 votes

well pyke has a 53% WR mid right now. he can be played as adc with off meta champs bot and even go top in pro levels of play, his gold lead extension is just too good.

FullmuteAll playOct 14, 20192 votes

Riot: don't worry we keep Aatrox ult after rework Riot later: KEKw

EonslegacyOct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Also riot : but vlad is ok and it's ok if he has an ability that makes him untargable + deal damage and can combo it with zhonyas and both zhonyas and pool combo well with his abilities and passive.

i dont get it. a champion with ranged and can heal 1k+ easily is beyond broken for the longest time, free elo, yet it isnt an issue.

i mean it doesnt honestly surprise me, they are the skin balance team for a reason, and gotta keep lcs flashy with all the "risky" plays and high damage (chinese pc cafes)

I remember when Vlad was the terrible early, ok mid, and good late game TEAM FIGHT ONLY champion. .But now he just demonlishes ur ass 1v1 because CDR is broken and vlad is broken.

"apply grrevious woundS" good idea, I can totally apply it as soon as he comes out of pool/zhonyas before he heals a juicy 1k+ . good idea.

Because theres a lot of matchups where vladimir gets rekt so hard that he is lvl 1 to irelias lvl 7. (seen that one was funny vlad made 1 mistake and then never got to get to lane again.) Until vlad gets his pool, any champ with ad that can leap large distances and has attackspeed scaling can just farm him. However, he does scale into a monster and counters pretty much everything else by just not dying till you oom. Not FUN at all to play against. Aatrox doesnt have that unique problem, he can auto attack enemies back, because high base ad and an ad scaling champion. However, that is actually how you beat him, so either he has no weakness or he is useless. Thats where his design is rn.

Vlad can fight ranged mobile auto attackers on fair ground, Aatrox cant, he either kills them during R or dies during R. His q takes to long to go off and the first q does less than a bork auto from vayne etc. however, if you buff his damage he can just steamroll them by trading his first q for their auto until they die. He has a terrible terrible terrible design.

Vlad gains health from damage, and damage from health, and has healing thats ranged and safe. Aatrox gains damage on damage, and health on damage, and heals from melee range which is ridiculously unsafe. Vlad can be nerfed to the point he is super weak in lane but strong late game. AAtrox cant, he is either strong early and mid and late or weak early mid and late.