I have a hard time to bring myself to play this game…

XJ99999999999999 · 2019-09-14T10:39:04.242Z

It is too obvious that buffs are given to popular champions with an upcoming skin that will sell well. The PBE is evidence of this with Riven and such. Whenever I see random buffs I always assume it's an upcoming skin. Sejuani, one of my favorite junglers, is getting obviously gutted because riot is tired of seeing her face in pro play. They've already sold too many skins for her as well as firecracker sejuani and don't have any in the works so they want to remove her from the pool of pro champs so some other jungler can fill that gap and sell skins. I remember back in the day when they did the corki rework and other random buffs, it made me think "hmm, this seems random, I think this is so that champions that are not played anymore are played in pro thus played in ranked and can sell skins". Unpopular champions have a lot of potential to sell a lot of skins, as no one owns a skin already on them thus if the champion is op they will flock and buy one. That's why all those reworks happened imo. Idk, it's just insane. People fell for that love tap nerf Zed got with the release of galaxy slayer skin going "OMG SEE RIOT DOESN'T BALANCE BECAUSE OF SKINS". The nerf was a nerf that only really hurt the top end zed players (Diamond and above). Zed is EXTREMELY popular in low elo, and those players are not skilled enough for that small nerf to mean anything when his gameplay and results remain largely the same in a low elo scenario. All the Zed posts you see on this board are low elo games or someone smurfing in an elo they don't belong in. I just can't be fucked. I tried to get into this game a bit again after years of not playing but I just can't do it. The game is just ruined by the players (toxicity, I haven't had an issue with trolls as I don't feed them by typing back thus encouraging the behavior to escalate) and the skin balance team at riot. How can I play this game and feel good when I know that there is no sense of balance or integrity? Gaming sure has turned into shit, both from the social aspect with players and companies themselves. Wintrading? I never heard of that shit ever until I came back this year as I haven't played other PvP games besides this one. Wintrading was never really talked about or an issue back in my day (2009-2015). No idea what the fuck hjappened tbh. Hard to care about ranked or playing the game in a game full of cheaterers or 1 tricks that don't actually have any game sense and just know how to kill another champion.

XJ99999999999999Sep 14, 201919 votes

{quoted}

This may be my opinion but the kind of person who is going to play the overpowered champions aren’t really gonna buy skins are they ?

The kind of people who buy skins are the long term mains who love a champion for the concept not the balance.

Myself as an example I own every velkoz reksai and zac skins.

I think you'd be surprised how many people buy skins when a champion is suddenly turned broken.

"Oh wow this champion got buffed, time to play them". "wow I dumpstered them and it was easy, wow I'm gonna buy a skin to look cool sense I'm gonna play this champ and spam him).

Low elos are the ones that buy the most skins. When I played in low elo everyone has skins. High elo people don't have as many because it's full of smurfs/alts.

mack9112Sep 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I think you'd be surprised how many people buy skins when a champion is suddenly turned broken.

"Oh wow this champion got buffed, time to play them". "wow I dumpstered them and it was easy, wow I'm gonna buy a skin to look cool sense I'm gonna play this champ and spam him).

Low elos are the ones that buy the most skins. When I played in low elo everyone has skins. High elo people don't have as many because it's full of smurfs/alts.

But the low elos are full of people who have absolutely massive mastery points on champions who do not play the broken champions to climb but instead play the champion they love and due this purchase the skins for the champions they love.

A great example is the player with the most mastery points on azir is a silver 3 player who also owns all his skins.

Garen is adoptedSep 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

But the low elos are full of people who have absolutely massive mastery points on champions who do not play the broken champions to climb but instead play the champion they love and due this purchase the skins for the champions they love.

A great example is the player with the most mastery points on azir is a silver 3 player who also owns all his skins.

that is why you see only first timers on gold and below.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Garen is adopted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T19:25:26.088+0000)

that is why you see only first timers on gold and below.

What do you mean i don’t follow

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

But the low elos are full of people who have absolutely massive mastery points on champions who do not play the broken champions to climb but instead play the champion they love and due this purchase the skins for the champions they love.

A great example is the player with the most mastery points on azir is a silver 3 player who also owns all his skins.

There's all kinds of players. No area of LoL is FULL of these kinds of players. They are isolated examples. OTPs are a small minority of League players. Less than %2, probably less than %1.

MasterDCloneSep 15, 20191 votes

well if you look at the most mastery points on a champion those 150 such players are almost all low elo

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

well if you look at the most mastery points on a champion those 150 such players are almost all low elo

%99.44 of ALL players are "low elo".

MasterDCloneSep 15, 20191 votes

Yes but that doesn't change my point that most of the like 5 million point players on their champs are there as well

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yes but that doesn't change my point that most of the like 5 million point players on their champs are there as well

It puts your statement into perspective.

There's 100,000,000 people actively playing LoL. (I mean that's not the highest estimate, but that's what people say in round numbers. It's the right order of magnitude.) Those lists have ~200 players with 1 million points, for any given champion. That would make an estimated 30,000 players with over 1 million points on a champion. (And many on those lists are no longer active, besides.) That means that ~1-in-3000 players has 1 million points on a champion.

I'm not really sure how elo figures into player's likelihood to purchase a skin. But my comment was made in response to "low elos are full of people who have absolutely massive mastery points on champions". Now, you were the one who kind of suggested that "massive mastery points" begins at what's on those lists... 1-in-3000 won't equate to "full of" anywhere.

But even when it comes to a few hundred thousand, it's still less than %1. Considerably less.

As it happens, low elo is underrepresented on those lists. Because much more than %1 of the people on those lists are above Diamond 3.

OTPs are a small minority of League players. Less than %2, probably less than %1.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-15T03:23:31.533+0000)

There's all kinds of players. No area of LoL is FULL of these kinds of players. They are isolated examples. OTPs are a small minority of League players. Less than %2, probably less than %1.

Exactly my point so there is no reason to think that riot would balance the game in such a way to sell more skins because you are going to detract more people than attract since OTP represent such a small portion of the league community.

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Exactly my point so there is no reason to think that riot would balance the game in such a way to sell more skins because you are going to detract more people than attract since OTP represent such a small portion of the league community.

Huh?

OTP are also a tiny fraction of skin purchasers. They won't be a factor in anything. They definitely won't be a considered population in buffing a champion for skin-sales-related reasons.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=000000000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-15T13:54:11.161+0000)

Huh?

OTP are also a tiny fraction of skin purchasers. They won't be a factor in anything. They definitely won't be a considered population in buffing a champion for skin-sales-related reasons.

Buffing does not relate to skin sales you can go back and see the coin goes both ways that not relation exist.

Galaxy slayer zed skin was released on literally the same patch a zed nerf was rolled out.

Not to mention this whole discussion is over buffs that have now been reverted because it’s the pbe they are going to put out buffs for champions like riven to get people on pbe to play her to play the new skin by relation so they can get the raw data needed for bug fixing. It’s very simple.

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Buffing does not relate to skin sales you can go back and see the coin goes both ways that not relation exist.

Galaxy slayer zed skin was released on literally the same patch a zed nerf was rolled out.

Not to mention this whole discussion is over buffs that have now been reverted because it’s the pbe they are going to put out buffs for champions like riven to get people on pbe to play her to play the new skin by relation so they can get the raw data needed for bug fixing. It’s very simple.

Oh yeah, I'm not sure that I buy into OP suggestion either. But reworks/ buffs do often seem line up with events and skin releases. It could be the other way around, too.

More than buffs, I notice that a champion's bugs are more likely to be fixed before a skin release / event, even when they have been neglected for years.

FSRERSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I think you'd be surprised how many people buy skins when a champion is suddenly turned broken.

"Oh wow this champion got buffed, time to play them". "wow I dumpstered them and it was easy, wow I'm gonna buy a skin to look cool sense I'm gonna play this champ and spam him).

Low elos are the ones that buy the most skins. When I played in low elo everyone has skins. High elo people don't have as many because it's full of smurfs/alts.

Not to mention eternals..

BadgeblitzSep 15, 20194 votes

No, they're SHORT-TERM CASUALS who the skins are marketed to for a cash grab. People who play on phone and look up builds to try winning, but then end up raging out because the game intentionally makes people lose as much as they win.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, they're SHORT-TERM CASUALS who the skins are marketed to for a cash grab. People who play on phone and look up builds to try winning, but then end up raging out because the game intentionally makes people lose as much as they win.

No way dude not even for a second.

Short term casuals do not invest money in skins.

I didn’t buy a single skin till like a year in and I know along of people who play this casually and they have not invested a penny.

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

No way dude not even for a second.

Short term casuals do not invest money in skins.

I didn’t buy a single skin till like a year in and I know along of people who play this casually and they have not invested a penny.

You started playing before "Runes Reforged". It's different now.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T03:25:34.280+0000)

You started playing before "Runes Reforged". It's different now.

What does that have to do with anything about buying skins lol

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What does that have to do with anything about buying skins lol

A ton. Before, a player would have spent on an IP boost, to get Runes faster, before he would spend any RP on a skin. Now that the ONLY thing that can be purchased are cosmetics (even boosts only lead to getting more cosmetics faster), players start buying skins sooner, in general.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T13:50:13.690+0000)

A ton. Before, a player would have spent on an IP boost, to get Runes faster, before he would spend any RP on a skin. Now that the ONLY thing that can be purchased are cosmetics (even boosts only lead to getting more cosmetics faster), players start buying skins sooner, in general.

We are just going to glaze over the fact you get free skins through runes reforged.

Like being someone who played this game before runes reforged my skin buying definitely dropped dramatically.

Instead of buying a 20$ skin every time one comes out I just but the 10$ event pass that nets me about 100$ worth of skins every time that always seem to relate to the champions I play ..

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

We are just going to glaze over the fact you get free skins through runes reforged.

Like being someone who played this game before runes reforged my skin buying definitely dropped dramatically.

Instead of buying a 20$ skin every time one comes out I just but the 10$ event pass that nets me about 100$ worth of skins every time that always seem to relate to the champions I play ..

You had already been playing for years. We were talking about new player experience. MY SHOP also wasn't around when you started playing.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T17:48:04.536+0000)

You had already been playing for years. We were talking about new player experience. MY SHOP also wasn't around when you started playing.

Exactly and because of the addition of things like my shop and runes reforged a normal new players investment into this game is severely lower.

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Exactly and because of the addition of things like my shop and runes reforged a normal new players investment into this game is severely lower.

Depends. I think MY SHOP results in a lot of money being spent on skins, that otherwise would not be. (Riot probably agrees with me, or else why keep the feature?)

And again, with MY SHOP tuned to the user's recently most-played champion, it's much more appealing to new players. (I mean, more appealing to everybody, but new players even much more so.) (New player very unlikely to buy a skin for a champion that he never played, where a seasoned player might get a skin on discount for a champion, even if he hasn't played it recently...)

True GarenSep 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

We are just going to glaze over the fact you get free skins through runes reforged.

Like being someone who played this game before runes reforged my skin buying definitely dropped dramatically.

Instead of buying a 20$ skin every time one comes out I just but the 10$ event pass that nets me about 100$ worth of skins every time that always seem to relate to the champions I play ..

Pass is $16. Most skins are a lot less than $20. (Are we even playing the same game?) You're probably just lucky.

New players are barely aware that events and passes exist. New players don't buy passes. I think that more seasoned players are probably strongly influenced by whether an event has desirable exclusive content. (Unless just somebody farming a collection and gets a pass to every event. I think it's only this past year that every event came with a pass.)

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-15T18:10:15.145+0000)

Pass is $16. Most skins are a lot less than $20. (Are we even playing the same game?) You're probably just lucky.

New players are barely aware that events and passes exist. New players don't buy passes. I think that more seasoned players are probably strongly influenced by whether an event has desirable exclusive content. (Unless just somebody farming a collection and gets a pass to every event. I think it's only this past year that every event came with a pass.)

I have introduced many of my friends to this game and they all have invested with the pass with great success.

So once again in all of this where is the business model that sees champion balance revolving around skin sales as this is what this thread is about.

It simply dosnt exist.

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I have introduced many of my friends to this game and they all have invested with the pass with great success.

So once again in all of this where is the business model that sees champion balance revolving around skin sales as this is what this thread is about.

It simply dosnt exist.

Well, they couldn't, obviously, balance the game long-term that way. (Because there would always be other champions with new skins.)

Seriously, I don't think that's how it works either... except in subtle ways. Consider that new champions, more often than not, seem to be released a little broken. Not only that but they're usually released with one skin, also. This is a coincidence, but you could see why somebody might get the idea that it was intentional. (And the myth surely is profitable.) Besides, it amounts to the same thing, because the sector that wants to play OP pick-of-the-month, will run to a new release. This also goes for re-works.

You know I think that I only got involved in this whole conversation because somebody asserted that silver was "full of" mega OTP obsessives who buy all of their skins.

Even if it was fact and not just perception that a champion might be buffed for a patch where a skin was released, it affects me hardly at all. We accept that there is no real balance, some champions will be buffed or nerfed every patch, it may as well be the ones with skins. For %99.44 of the people who play this game, the small buffs or nerfs that people complain about aren't usually as impactful as represented. (Because we make so many mistakes, anyway.)

Need to also consider that when it comes to perception of purchasing habits, our impressions are probably only relevant for a small fractional segment of players. I have no idea which group of Chinese players is most likely to buy a skin. Or why.

Chicks are a major motivational factor behind skin sales, in my experience, anyway. Probably more than any other single motivation, when considering gifts, or making an impression. Complimenting a skin goes a huge way towards influencing somebody to buy it.

Traditionally, automobile sales are boosted by professional racing. The manufacturer of the winning vehicle sees an immediate rise in orders. Probably, champions that feature prominently in pro series enjoy similar interest.

People are more likely to buy skins for champions that they are playing. And champions that are strong tend to get played more. So champions that are strong will probably have higher skin sales. These are generalities; there's a hundred other factors.

From my little space, it does seem, that the company is taking dedicated playerbase demographics into some account, in considering new skin releases (at least for the past couple years). Which, would make perfect sense, and is proper.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T21:26:40.152+0000)

Well, they couldn't, obviously, balance the game long-term that way. (Because there would always be other champions with new skins.)

Seriously, I don't think that's how it works either... except in subtle ways. Consider that new champions, more often than not, seem to be released a little broken. Not only that but they're usually released with one skin, also. This is a coincidence, but you could see why somebody might get the idea that it was intentional. (And the myth surely is profitable.) Besides, it amounts to the same thing, because the sector that wants to play OP pick-of-the-month, will run to a new release. This also goes for re-works.

You know I think that I only got involved in this whole conversation because somebody asserted that silver was "full of" mega OTP obsessives who buy all of their skins.

Even if it was fact and not just perception that a champion might be buffed for a patch where a skin was released, it affects me hardly at all. We accept that there is no real balance, some champions will be buffed or nerfed every patch, it may as well be the ones with skins. For %99.44 of the people who play this game, the small buffs or nerfs that people complain about aren't usually as impactful as represented. (Because we make so many mistakes, anyway.)

Need to also consider that when it comes to perception of purchasing habits, our impressions are probably only relevant for a small fractional segment of players. I have no idea which group of Chinese players is most likely to buy a skin. Or why.

Chicks are a major motivational factor behind skin sales, in my experience, anyway. Probably more than any other single motivation, when considering gifts, or making an impression. Complimenting a skin goes a huge way towards influencing somebody to buy it.

Traditionally, automobile sales are boosted by professional racing. The manufacturer of the winning vehicle sees an immediate rise in orders. Probably, champions that feature prominently in pro series enjoy similar interest.

People are more likely to buy skins for champions that they are playing. And champions that are strong tend to get played more. So champions that are strong will probably have higher skin sales. These are generalities; there's a hundred other factors.

From my little space, it does seem, that the company is taking dedicated playerbase demographics into some account, in considering new skin releases (at least for the past couple years). Which, would make perfect sense, and is proper.

Your a really nice guy :)

You will get a more response from me when I am a little less intoxicated.

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Your a really nice guy :)

You will get a more response from me when I am a little less intoxicated.

[insert well-deserved dig here]

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T22:03:03.364+0000)

[insert well-deserved dig here]

We gotta duo dude let’s be honest

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This may be my opinion but the kind of person who is going to play the overpowered champions aren’t really gonna buy skins are they ?

The kind of people who buy skins are the long term mains who love a champion for the concept not the balance.

Myself as an example I own every velkoz reksai and zac skins.

My experience is that this is not how it works in practice. Players who select for OP champions also buy skins (or have them gifted from the other players that the carry).

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2019-09-15T03:19:52.156+0000)

My experience is that this is not how it works in practice. Players who select for OP champions also buy skins (or have them gifted from the other players that the carry).

It’s not the champion op though the person has purchased the skin or received the skin after mastering the champion and becoming good at it.

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It’s not the champion op though the person has purchased the skin or received the skin after mastering the champion and becoming good at it.

I started to reply to you, but this conversation is becoming increasingly speculative. To my mind, the kind of person that picks up new champions based on a perception of champion strength, would probably also be likely to pick up a skin to go with it.

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=0000000400000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T13:59:27.262+0000)

I started to reply to you, but this conversation is becoming increasingly speculative. To my mind, the kind of person that picks up new champions based on a perception of champion strength, would probably also be likely to pick up a skin to go with it.

A champions is picked in relation to how the person wants to approach the game be it tanky frontline or healer or assasin or whatever else.

You spend the recourses to master said champion.

You purchase a skin to reflect that.

Nobody is gonna go omg they are buffing the execute damage on riven ( which they reverted btw and put another nerf on q ) so I gotta get the 100$ skin .

That’s not real life nobody does that.

True GarenSep 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

A champions is picked in relation to how the person wants to approach the game be it tanky frontline or healer or assasin or whatever else.

You spend the recourses to master said champion.

You purchase a skin to reflect that.

Nobody is gonna go omg they are buffing the execute damage on riven ( which they reverted btw and put another nerf on q ) so I gotta get the 100$ skin .

That’s not real life nobody does that.

No. But if they realized that a champion was exploitable and they found themselves repeatedly carrying , then they might indeed acquire a skin.

A skin costs...a few dollars... $10 for the more expensive ones. At some point it begins to make sense, when viewed against "entertainment budget value". I don't know why you think that it's a stretch to consider that somebody who picks up a champion and starts winning might be slightly more likely to acquire a skin...

mack9112Sep 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLea9MzU,comment-id=000000040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T17:51:42.262+0000)

No. But if they realized that a champion was exploitable and they found themselves repeatedly carrying , then they might indeed acquire a skin.

A skin costs...a few dollars... $10 for the more expensive ones. At some point it begins to make sense, when viewed against "entertainment budget value". I don't know why you think that it's a stretch to consider that somebody who picks up a champion and starts winning might be slightly more likely to acquire a skin...

I am definitely it denying that statement but I do not believe that riot would base there business model on that premise as that is very short term gain for long term loss.

Make every champion feel rewardIng and skill instensive then you will have long term players who invest in the game.

I have a hard time to bring myself to play this game anymore due to the balance team

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