Give junglers exp back

XJ99999999999999·Mar 31, 2019·39 votes·13,704 views

Make them get the exp back by reverting the change or making camps give more exp towards midlate-late game thanks.

should have given junglers something to compensate for the nerfed exp

edit: hey guys let's focus on my other suggestion which is to compensate for the early-mid game nerfs by buffing midlate-late game exp cuz it's annoying being a shit level.

51 Comments

muted team chatMar 31, 201920 votes

Too much early jg pressure? nerf jg.

Forced meta to even more aggressive lvl 2 gankers. What will the new solution be? I'm going to be more jg nerfs.

ModAcademy KaynApr 1, 20195 votes

Level 2 gankers are going to gank no matter what though, it's not exactly like you can stop them from ganking level 2 for the reasons that lie primarily in their kit. The EXP changes make it so if a gank fails, the jungler is actually punished with the time it took to gank instead of farming. Meanwhile, map aware junglers can use that advantage to take the opposite side jungler's camps, further punishing them.

Folk keep missing the point of the changes. The point wasn't to nerf level 2 gankers, it was to add a price onto ganking that wasn't being paid before. An unsuccessful gank just meant they could whip back into their jungle, and still be the same level and gold as their laner counterparts, who aren't roaming 24/7. That's not even to mention actually getting a successful gank puts you and your laner ahead, and then you get your camps on top of that.

The point of the changes, was to put a price to ganks. Junglers have the unique ability to constantly pace about the map, and influence the game heavily. If a laner could do that, and stay equal in EXP and gold even with a failed roam, there sure as hell would be an outrage.

OHminusApr 1, 20193 votes

Except a jungler now gets more exp for just rotating camps on one side of a map and permaganking top/mid or mid/bot instead of doing full clears

TheSingularityApr 1, 20192 votes

But that is objectively false. All camps are worth less XP and spawn less often than in the past.

IllabetheApr 1, 20193 votes

What he's saying is they get more XP in a lane leeching than they do from doing a full map clear.

Btw, you are wrong. Krugs are worth far more XP/Gold than they used to.

TheSingularityApr 1, 20192 votes

Ah k yeah mb

And

V9.2 Ancient KrugSquare Ancient Krug Experience reduced to 100 − 125 (based on monster's level) from 100 − 150 (based on monster's level). KrugSquare Krug Experience reduced to 35 − 43.75 (based on monster's level) from 35 − 52.5 (based on monster's level). KrugSquare Mini Krug Experience reduced to 7 − 8.75 (based on monster's level) from 7 − 10.5 (based on monster's level).

gold unchanged (unless undocumented)

IllabetheApr 1, 20193 votes

There are two rounds of "nerfs."

The first changed small Krugs from 5-7 XP to 7-10.5 It also reduced the first clear penalty from 50% to 30%......

P.S. The "nerf" you mentioned is a late game XP nerf, not an early one.

IllabetheApr 1, 20195 votes

Riot's own excuse was to make level 3 ganks occur later. Go back and read patch notes.

However, this became biased and created a really narrow jungle meta where instead of level 3 gankers securing a kill top etc, and being plentiful in their variety........ to one where a selection of very few champions can actually snowball early as jungle, and stay snowballed...... simply by receiving their leash, and then following their Leashers to the lane, and creating an unexpected 2v3 vs 1-2 level 1's who have barely got in 2-3 CS before they arrive.

I have very rarely seen that strategy until after these nerfs. Even on Udyr/Xin/Jarvan..... that strategy was deferred in favor of stealing enemy jungle buff and trying to get level 3, and then ganking.

FluffehApr 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8jriuA4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-01T01:20:37.131+0000) The point of the changes, was to put a price to ganks.

Not much of a price, There have been plenty of games where im playing a jungler thats weaker than the opponents jungler so i invade rather than counter gank and we'll end up the same level despite me having 30 more cs than him simply because the camps that i stole werent worth that much, as evidenced by the rise of hard ganking early game only junglers. Even more than usual.

AIQApr 1, 20191 votes

While this might be the motive, they missed the mark. Ganking and pushing a lane has more incentive than farming you own jungle. I've seen gankers fail push the lane and out level myself despite being 20 cs behind me.

The correct approach is to increase EXP by around 20-30 of what was lost. And reduce re spawn times by 20% except buffs after 4-5 minutes.

If a player chooses to farm and the player ganking is not successfully the player that is farming can then do a second clear to the single clear of the one that failed their gank. Gaining an actual lead. However, since hte EXP will still be nerfed from before a gank + push will always be more.

Duelist and invading will be viable, but also less rewarding as shorter spawns will allow the farmer or player that is behind more opportunities to get exp and gold.

Respawn timers being reduced slightly I believe is the best option for the jungle. Then ganking when you could be farming means something every time currently, avg junglers can clear and have 40-50 seconds of free time before restarting their route. If that becomes 10-25 seconds people then really have to choose what to do.

AseraanApr 1, 20192 votes

Or just nerf red buff already and remove scutle from the game CHIN CHONG no more lv 2 fights in the river deciding who wins the game by default.

BisaknospApr 1, 20199 votes

and remove scuttle

GlaricionApr 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

and remove scuttle

Scuttle is too precious to remove. I vote to rework him into an interactive doodad, like the chickens in Counter-Strike.

RagnaveilApr 1, 20194 votes

Just lower the value. There was no point in making a RNG spawning monster have so much gameplay determining power like that. I liked the days where scuttle existed on both sides of the river but wasn't a requirement clear.

Sir SaltarinMar 31, 20196 votes

Then you need to nerf somehow the impact of early game ganks, you cant just buff Jng like that, there's a reason why the XP nerfs happened: the impact of Junglers in the game was massive.

If they revert the nerf and dont do anything more we would go back to that, and it wont happen.

xDogMeatxMar 31, 20193 votes

why not make a debuff to jungle interaction to laners or a timer shield that prevents jungle interference to prevent those unfun cheeses. then jungle exp can be reverted back to normal. (by laners i mean actually during laning phase not invades in any form whatsoever that will null the debuff.)

Sir SaltarinMar 31, 20193 votes

I don't think that what you say it's a good idea but the direction of your idea sure makes sense.

If Jng gets their XP back, the early ganks cant be as opressive as they are right now, Jng doesn't need a plain buff, it needs a tweak.

xDogMeatxMar 31, 20192 votes

how would you tweak it?

Sir SaltarinMar 31, 20192 votes

Buffing vision is an option.

To delay the lvl 2 ganks the spawn time of Red/Blue could be delayed a bit

I dont know how to balance Jng I'm just a normal player.

But I'm sure that just reverting the nerfs would make it a "better jng" wins meta once again, I dont hate Jng, I want it to be balanced.

xDogMeatxMar 31, 20192 votes

YES BUFF DAMN VISION without it i cringe i recently start playing lee sin i want them trinkets. delays wouldnt help it would make laners lose CS due to the timer to leash.

LTK KoRoApr 1, 20191 votes

please don't buff vision, vision is in the perfect state right now. With a team effort you can get vision around entire baron area, but you can't get more than that, and that's the perfect amount of vision

Sir SaltarinApr 1, 20191 votes

Okay, then keep the XP jng nerfs.

I'm fine with that.

LTK KoRoApr 1, 20192 votes

i have better solution. Jungle is too weak compared to other roles, so we should just nerf XP gain from minions, and gut crit

Sir SaltarinApr 1, 20192 votes

Junglers rise up

GayFluffyUnicornApr 1, 20193 votes

Build a wall around toplane and make junglers pay for it.

Praise hashinshin our lord and savior.

xDogMeatxApr 1, 20191 votes

Kayn wall?

Sir SaltarinApr 1, 20191 votes

Praise Hashinshin del Rivero

oortoomeebreesuuMar 31, 20198 votes

you nerf the impact of early game ganks by making ganking less rewarding. you do that by placing those rewards elsewhere, like in their camps.

Sir SaltarinMar 31, 20199 votes

So if Jng camps had way more gold and XP early ganking would be worse ?

That doesn't work if the spawn time of Jng camps is so high, and what you are suggesting would be a massive buff to all junglers which is what it's not going to happen.

If anything they should make the camps give less XP/gold BUT the spawn time would be way shorter, that would mean that if a Jungler is ganking non stop and then he decides to clear his Jng he will be really behind to a Jng that has ganked less but has cleared his Jng twice.

oortoomeebreesuuApr 1, 20193 votes

yes, i also agree that camp respawns are absurdly too long. more over that the first spawns aren't as valuable.

I distinctly remember seasons past that if you tried to gank early, you would actually fall behind, because you'd lose your other side of the jg. you would literally be 2 levels behind the other jungler if you didn't get your ass in gear. that just never happens anymore.

TheSingularityApr 1, 20192 votes

And it is still massive. Their impact did not change because all they can do now is gank gank gank. You don't reduce gank pressure by making ganks the only viable plan (by making any other strat redundant )

You won't reduce their impact significantly unless you remove the position. Their entire purpose is early game pressure. You need to slow junglers down through their clears: beef up monsters, reduce dmg. Give buffs their lil monsters back to nerf single target jglers

GayFluffyUnicornApr 1, 20191 votes

Jungle just needs to have a tradeoff. Right now jungle is a get everything do nothing role. You don't drop low in health, always full mana, you get vision/clearance, honey fruits, good amount of gold, control over ridiculously overpowered drakes, FUCKIN RED SMITE ON TOP of being able to roam around and annoy the shit out of everyone or snowball gank to victory and all you have to do for it is lock in a jungler and 1v1 AI camps tradeoff is that if you lose jungle you lose hard and can't do anything else which is definitely great for the teammates involved.

Jungle needs to hit harder, less sustain overall a jungler should have to consider if a gank is successful or if it's too risky going in half health.

Nowadays a master yi runs toplane at lvl 2 or 3 and just kills a renekton thanks to red buff and all the dmg in runes and if nothing helps press F for a guaranteed 1v1 kill.

But whatever riot needs that braindead non stop gank position so LCS doesn't become a snoozefest again.

RagnaveilApr 1, 20192 votes

here's how you fix that: Nerf the problematic level two gankers so they are forced to get level 3 or something so they can gank. Pretty simple. EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted? This is literally the issue that created the exp nerf in the first place. It changed nothing but punished tank jgs or jgs who cant gank right away. Cheese jgs will still thrive along side champs like Lee Sin.

DecapitationKingApr 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

here's how you fix that: Nerf the problematic level two gankers so they are forced to get level 3 or something so they can gank. Pretty simple. EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted? This is literally the issue that created the exp nerf in the first place. It changed nothing but punished tank jgs or jgs who cant gank right away. Cheese jgs will still thrive along side champs like Lee Sin.

I don't get people that flame lvl 2 gankers. If I'm the enemy jungle and I'm on j4 or Lee sin or something similar and you choose to push your lane without vision, you should understand 100% you will get ganked.

People just need to understand how to play jg well enough to know how to counteract them. As an aggressive early game champ I will almost always try to kill the enemy jg while they get their 2nd buff if they are on a weak champ. If not I'll look for whichever lane is pushed into my tower or overextended and wait for them to blow a CD on my laner and then punish them. Most the time it works because people don't respect a good early jungle and extend without wards

If people play smart in the early vs a strong early game jungle they will likely either waste important farming time on really reaching for ganks that are less successful, or they will straight up try to hard and get counter ganked and die. Even if neither happen and they just farm they will be having a hard time because they really need those early kills or they fall behind.

Tldr play safe early and just doing that will be a punishment for hard early ganker jg

MorgManBasherMar 31, 20196 votes

No thanks, don't want to see junglers out leveling solo laners anymore.

Flavi KangApr 1, 20195 votes

Remove the shit crab. No one asked for it. No one likes playing around it. The crab doesn't involve any "skill expression". It only made jungle into a shitshow. Fucking remove it.

TheSingularityApr 1, 20194 votes

Possible solution(s)

Blue and red buff health increase (larger increase early game to make second buff slower, less increase later), now grant enough combined XP to grant level 3 and buff duration extended 20 seconds to compensate (will take as long as fastest level 3 due to walking times). Give the red and blue buff their 2 minions back (nerfs kha zix and single target clearing junglers).
Small camp respawn timers reverted to 1:40 (XP and gold lowered to compensate, however is slightly higher because to add value to camps). Wolf and raptor camp health increased. Krugs splitting animation sped up, health of intermediate krugs increased. Gromp grants a tad more XP
Scuttle camp XP and gold reduced or removed (the vision is reward enough for a monster that can't fight back)
Scryer's Bloom. Either removed, or changed and nerfed to reveal wards in a circular area around the fruit, longer respawn time, the second fruit on blue buff side jungle is removed. Reveals champions for 0.5-1 second instead of 3. Radius reduced to cover: Blue buff, circle river bush and wolf camp.
Jungle buffs re-implemented. This adds a second reward for clearing. Do not underestimate how much better small rewards make jungling feel. As well as some control over your jungle or clear speed. But also adjusted: raptor reveal duration lowered (enough time for 1 ward)
New Fruit, Dragon Fruit. The fruit you can eat spawns in the enemy jungle on red buff side, between raptors and red buff. Or blue buff side between wolf and blue buff. They will both spawn either close to dragon (Blue team red buff side, red team blue buff side) or far from dragon (blue team blue buff, red team red buff). This prevents a positional advantage and the fruits are placed in high traffic areas. Eating the fruit reveals you for 0.5 seconds. However. The fruit makes you deal more damage to dragons (if you AD/AP are over a specific threshold) or take less damage (if they are not) from dragons. The fruit spawns 30-60 seconds after a dragon spawns. Does not spawn for elder dragon. This makes it a high risk (as it tells them what you are doing) high reward fruit.

So what do these changes achieve!

This reverts this logic "First, junglers pay too much of an opportunity cost when ganking, thanks to how quickly jungle monsters respawn. " patch 6.22. Therefore they sacrifice something to gank
Junglers get level 3 slightly faster but most importantly, are slowed down so that if they want to keep up, they need to effectively and efficiently balance their jungle farming and ganking. Too much ganking? Fall behind in levels. Too much farming? Fall behind in gold and objectives.
We give less control to god tier jungler by nerfing the vision fruit but also give them the potential of higher control due to the greater XP value of buff camps.
We add some more depth to the jungle. Riot was concerned of the optimal way smite was used (generally raptor camp). Personally it depended on the jungler. Tank? Always gromp and raptor camp. Aggressive jungler? Raptor and enemy wolf.
We give tools to weaker junglers through smite buffs and dragon fruits. Slower clearing junglers as well (fast clearing junglers clear fast regardless of jungle buffs)
More OPTIONS! Now there's a reason not to gank. To go grab the sweet buff, a specific camp. Maybe grab dragon fruit. There's incentive to INVADE! To hinder their clear by stealing krugs/gromp. Hinder their vision by taking raptors, Hinder theirm everything by taking red/blue.

SaevumApr 1, 20191 votes

Small personal opinion:

I am in favor of Scuttle camp XP but not gold.

Maybe have gromp poison buff back? that thing was so sweet to have.

qss0Apr 1, 20194 votes

Can you guys fuck off downvoting jungle buff posts? Jungle exp is fucked and power farm is dead. The fuck is with this jungle hate.

Sir SaltarinApr 1, 20192 votes

I mean the thing is that just by reverting the XP nerfs you wont hurt early ganking junglers that are meta, they would still be meta but they would be even stronger since they wouldn't be underleveled.

Because it's not like we had a farm focused meta when the nerfs happened you know, Jng needs a tweak and not a simple nerf revert that wouldn't solve anything.

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐApr 1, 20193 votes

Delete the role.

XJ99999999999999Apr 1, 20192 votes

I'm mostly leaning towards the idea that mid/late- late game jungle exp should be buffed to compensate for the shit exp early-mid game. They didn't buff the late game exp of camps to compensate for the gutted early-mid game exp rates.

AnchobiApr 1, 20192 votes

Low exp is good, junglers are very annoying and mostly bad players, we dont want bad players to decide game

ThefrostyvikingMar 31, 20191 votes

Meh it was a problem of pro´s having developed jungle strategies to the point where the junglers just got too good almost regardless of individual nerfs as long as the champs werent gutted, as the main idea was some super cheesy early ganks with a EXP lead from quick clears.

So they nerfed EXP to counter that, which unfortunately means that while its more difficult and punishing to do those cheese ganks early its still super rewarding to succeed and the junglers who didnt cheese also suffer from the nerfs.

Things are bad when the entire lane needs nerfs to keep the champs in it from being uncontrollable.

PlsBuffMyMainApr 1, 20191 votes

Rito bring back s6 Graves pls

Sir SaltarinApr 1, 20192 votes

Riot bring back s5 Graves pls

Ulquiorra0123Apr 1, 20191 votes

Path better. Simple.

Caius CosadesApr 1, 20191 votes

Not that I'm particularly qualified to say anything, being a Silver 4 Volibear main, but maybe buffing experience for anyone who smites down an epic monster with blue or red smite would do the trick.

Yes, the first few levels would still kind of suck, but it would incentivise junglers fighting around neutral objectives, and give people more reason to contest things like Cloud and Ocean drake, which are usually considered lower priority.

NightTimeBlues19Apr 2, 20191 votes

This community has absolutely no idea what they want. The post about junglers go from: "nerf junglers" "Better jungler wins the games" "I feel that jungler decides if i win my lane or not" to "Buff junglers" "They are just totally shitting on my main role" "jungle isn't fun to play anymore". Make up your minds, do you want junglers to be strong or not? If you give junglers more experience and levels, the ganks will be even stronger than they are right now. Im going to give a very unpopular opinion and say: I am completely fine with the way the jungle works right now. And you know what I am a jungle main. The experience nerf is fine. Junglers already have the most impactful role in the entire game, it is okay for it be slightly weaker than solo lanes.

DecapitationKingApr 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This community has absolutely no idea what they want. The post about junglers go from: "nerf junglers" "Better jungler wins the games" "I feel that jungler decides if i win my lane or not" to "Buff junglers" "They are just totally shitting on my main role" "jungle isn't fun to play anymore". Make up your minds, do you want junglers to be strong or not? If you give junglers more experience and levels, the ganks will be even stronger than they are right now. Im going to give a very unpopular opinion and say: I am completely fine with the way the jungle works right now. And you know what I am a jungle main. The experience nerf is fine. Junglers already have the most impactful role in the entire game, it is okay for it be slightly weaker than solo lanes.

Jg main here as well. I completely agree. We still have a large impact in the game and frankly I like where things are at for us atm