another PBE update and guess how many cass changes there are?

A few things to note:

• A champion like Casseopia, who has repeatable targeted damage, has very little dueling play other than fish and destroy. Casseopia was absurd pre-update in lane, but clunky and hard to play. She fell off late, but that's not a solid enough footing to base the champion on - lack of lane counterplay should not be balanced with "well, she sucks later." It's a binary and non-LoL appropriate pattern (even if it's certainly fun to shit on people in lane :P)
• We won't revert because the update isn't just a wash; it accomplishes the functional goals of changing Cass' power curve - which is still an intended goal. What we missed was playstyle and emotional resonance notes, along with power tuning. This will then be additive and adjusted based on the current foundations, and not a new overhaul. The issue wasn't a change, the issue was trading one set of problems for a new set, when we can instead solve problems with a follow-through.

So she's in a bad state now, but this is still closer to what "finished" will look like than old Cass.

If you are going to look at power tuning I hope you will check this thread I just put up...

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XxveA4ra-cassiopeia-rework-by-the-numbers

Effectively right now Cass's level of damage exceeds her old self provided she lands at least 4 Es at every stage of the game. It would be extremely easy to put her over well over the top in the hands of those that play her well if you tune her power curve for those that are having difficulty managing it.

A few things to note:

• A champion like Casseopia, who has repeatable targeted damage, has very little dueling play other than fish and destroy. Casseopia was absurd pre-update in lane, but clunky and hard to play. She fell off late, but that's not a solid enough footing to base the champion on - lack of lane counterplay should not be balanced with "well, she sucks later." It's a binary and non-LoL appropriate pattern (even if it's certainly fun to shit on people in lane :P)
• We won't revert because the update isn't just a wash; it accomplishes the functional goals of changing Cass' power curve - which is still an intended goal. What we missed was playstyle and emotional resonance notes, along with power tuning. This will then be additive and adjusted based on the current foundations, and not a new overhaul. The issue wasn't a change, the issue was trading one set of problems for a new set, when we can instead solve problems with a follow-through.

So she's in a bad state now, but this is still closer to what "finished" will look like than old Cass.

And you are in the balance team? Tell me which is the counterplay against Annie, Brand, Veigar, Syndra, Lux, Viktor... Nearly every bursty mage compared with cassio. Cassio has one thing called DoT and a shield can stop that, if you try to shield someone against a burst mage, you can't, he's dead. Where is the counterplay? Cassio counterplay is: have 400000 mobility so she can fail every skill because of that stupid delay, and do not face her while doing that telegraphic ult. This is what happen when you put someone who never played Cassio and let rework her. Brand and Mordekaiser become DoT mages.

Morello, tell me how to counter that stupid Veigar ult that one shots me as Cassio because of that 1000 AP passive but sucky scales, tell me your so GODLY COUNTERPLAY!

A few things to note:

• A champion like Casseopia, who has repeatable targeted damage, has very little dueling play other than fish and destroy. Casseopia was absurd pre-update in lane, but clunky and hard to play. She fell off late, but that's not a solid enough footing to base the champion on - lack of lane counterplay should not be balanced with "well, she sucks later." It's a binary and non-LoL appropriate pattern (even if it's certainly fun to shit on people in lane :P)
• We won't revert because the update isn't just a wash; it accomplishes the functional goals of changing Cass' power curve - which is still an intended goal. What we missed was playstyle and emotional resonance notes, along with power tuning. This will then be additive and adjusted based on the current foundations, and not a new overhaul. The issue wasn't a change, the issue was trading one set of problems for a new set, when we can instead solve problems with a follow-through.

So she's in a bad state now, but this is still closer to what "finished" will look like than old Cass.

Oh boy, okay.

One: She didn't fall off late, she was just like any other mage or even comparable to an ADC. You focused what you can that was in the front.

You know what she did amazing at? Melting through frontline champions, because of how her kit worked and it did wonders to get that feeling when you played her.

Two: You called her old pattern absurd in pre-update, lacked dueling potential with fishing and destroying and was clunky and hard to play.

Maybe there is some truth to this, but current rework cass has even less dueling potential and is even more clunky to play. Why?

Because everything is tied to Twin Fangs. With no damage in Q and W, you force a player to sit there like a turret and fire Twin Fangs off. That is as Binary as you get.

Atleast with the old Cassiopeia I could weave in spells like a mad man trying to juggle moments and windows with an occasional twin fang because it was suicide to stand there for too long trying to use more then one twin fangs.

Three:

I've said before and I'll say it again.

So long as Cassiopeia has this passive: "Aspect of the Serpent"

She will never (Yes, I said never) be able to function better as a champion, simply because you guys have added a gating mechanic that also grants additional AP.

It won't matter if she gains percentage AP or Flat AP. The fact the passive has this means you arbitrarily have hold back her AP ratios which prevent her from ever seeing the light of day.

You might now think that taking away her AP gains from a passive might be a great choice, but it doesn't end there.

The fact that you guys also arbitrarily added spell vamp and cool down reduction is just a face palm.

Its like you guys watched a season 2 Cass player like Scarra (or Reginald I can't remember who started it) play her with Will of the ancients/Hextech Revolver and thought it was great to have and decided to throw it in for Season 4 on Cassiopeia.

Spell Vamp is junk on her, I'm sorry. If it was sustain your looking for, its pennies compared to what ADC's can get from lifesteal and even then you never live long enough to make use of that spell vamp because its pitiful since any player worth his salt knows if you get on top of a Cassiopeia player she will get deleted.

onto the Cooldown, Why? I mean, just why? You guys again increased her cooldowns and arbitrarily increased her cooldowns all on her spells which once she gets that certain point of CDR. She gets old cass cooldown times which is just a slap in the face.

Cooldown on her only helped getting faster Ults, it was not valued as high and still isn't worth it now.

Four: Since she no longer has Deadly Cadence, you severely underestimate how much she needs it because of how spammy in nature her kit is. The fact that you made everything kit focused onto her Twin fangs, makes it even MORE known of how quickly she relies on her Mana passive since her new kit just now calls for more SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM.

• We won't revert because the update isn't just a wash; it accomplishes the functional goals of changing Cass' power curve - which is still an intended goal. *What we missed was playstyle and emotional resonance notes, along with power tuning. *

You mean, basically everything.

This will then be additive and adjusted based on the current foundations, and not a new overhaul. The issue wasn't a change, the issue was trading one set of problems for a new set, when we can instead solve problems with a follow-through.

So she's in a bad state now, but this is still closer to what "finished" will look like than old Cass.

Screw that. Every Cassiopeia main hates this rework. Why is it so hard to understand that WE DID NOT ASK FOR THIS?

You just went and destroyed our favourite champion, and even now you won't give up, still trying to make that shitty farm bot passive and "carry" playstyle to happen.

We want the old Cassiopeia back.

I think changes to how it works are on the table, but I think the scaling paradigm is still part of her "why bring her" (outside of the general fun factor/attachment to themes). I still think the largest and most salient critiques are about how she doesn't feel like herself.

Lane bullying will not be restored, in either iteration ("able to lane" is important though).

I do like the thought of cass being a late game hyper carry, are you sticking with stacks or are you thinking about making her power tied to lvl, like trist's range increase?

Now that the dust has settled on Worlds, I think we can do this. A little communication will go a long way, methinks!

We deff need to balance the game around an event where a bunch of asian nerds play the same 15 champions against each other. Fuck all the actual players.

Any chance of having a relatively drastic revamp?

You've probably seen my multiple walls of rambling over her Passive and her POISON identity in the past.

But to TL;DR it all, her Passive really is the literal opposite of what Poison should be isn't it?

Even if you don't like DoT, a Poison should still be something harmful, if not in damage, then in way of debilitation like reduced damage, character levels, reduced resistances, and all sorts of sick stuff ala Dungeons and Dragon.

The idea that Cassiopeia's biceps are growing buffer and bigger so she can throw her fangs harder and more often the longer her opponent is poisoned ("10% increased ability power and 25% bonus cooldown reduction") belongs on a slowly rejuvenating zombie like Sion or a hormonal ionian mage who is just starting to get her powers back. It's a little on the jarring side for Cassiopeia, especially when it's the enemy champion who is inflicted with the Poison and not herself.

Instead of a Passive that very gradually makes Cassiopeia be better at throwing her oversized fangs, how about one that punishes the opponent for getting Poisoned repeatedly instead?

To put it into comparison.

How does Thresh grow stronger? By eating souls. How does Nasus grow stronger? edit: Apparently he siphons their souls, never knew. How does Sion grow stronger? No idea. But he's a zombie killing his enemies, I assume he either takes their blood or he remembers more of himself as he kills more.

How does Cassiopeia grow stronger?...by having her Poison be on her opponent. Not on herself in some sort of "mad scientist who injects himself with her own concoctions" kind of way. But the only thing anything is happening to is her opponent. So logically, shouldn't the change happen to her poisoned victims instead?

Why is it so neccesary that Cass has her current passive? I understand that it makes sense from a champion design perspective, as it helps cement her 'late game hyper carry' identity that you guys want to focus on, but it doesn't make any sense thematically (I get stronger by poisoning people? That's completely contrary to the idea of 'poison'.) or gameplay wise (the aforementioned 'It feels like a chore')

This is a bit off topic, but as someone who was a BIG fan of pre-rework Skarner, can you explain how you determined that Skarner turned out well? From what I can tell, his pick rate and win rate have not improved at all, and now his mana costs virtually prohibit him from laning. And in my opinion, he is a lot less fun to play.

CC tanks like Nautilus, Singed, and Cho'Gath are my favorite champions, so I was really disappointed when you pushed Skarner into a bruiser role. I would have preferred that you kept the pre-rework Skarners CC and toned down his damage.

IIRC, his kit was deemed too toxic because he had too much damage and CC, along with the mobility from his MS steroid. Playing old Skarner, I really liked using his mobility to stick to enemies while positioning to slow as many enemies as possible with Crystal Slash. Now, his CC feels too unreliable and unresponsive to peel with since you have to hit a moderate - cooldown skillshot to get 1 slow and then follow up with two hits of Crystal Slash to get a chance to proc the stun. With the old Skarner, you simply had to hit one dude with Crystal Slash and then the next Crystal Slash would slow the dudes. Also, Impale would be up more often because his passive could reduce its cooldown.

You already have examples of enjoyable high-CC champions including Alistar, Leona, Braum, an Nautilus. It is OK for champions to have high CC as long as they do not deal good damage, right? Even they can build damage with AP. And bruisers can buy CC with Blade of the Ruined King, Frozen Mallet, Randuins Omen, and Iceborn Gauntlet. In fact, building Iceborn Gauntlet gives Skarner a simiar feel to his older self - it's just not as satisfying.

To be honest, I am worried about the tank class as a whole. A lot of the older ones like Cho'Gath, Nautilus, and Singed are already struggling against mobility creep, and for they most part they are pushed out of top lane by mages and fighters, and pushed out of the jungle by fighters and assassins. There still are some exceptions and season 5 might change a lot - particularly in the jungle, but that doesn't change that they seem to have been in a relatively poor spot for a while now. The ones that are still good work as supports or are the more boring / semi-bruiser / wet-noodle ones like Dr. Mundo, Maokai, and Malphite. There already are far more fighters than tanks - we didn't need to remove one of the former to make a latter. Skarner was a very satisfying tank, but he is not a satisfying bruiser - he was his own champion, but now he merely sees like a less-fun Hecarim.

TL;DR I do not think that Skarner turned out well. He was a very fun tank. He is not so fun as a fighter.