if clarity on DoT abilities is an issue

Quepha·Oct 18, 2014·58 votes·3,417 views

why not add a feature where dot effects on a champion color part of their hp bar green (or some other negatively-associated color) to represent what the total damage of the dot is estimated to be once it's run its full course. people are used to thinking of gray or purple hp as temporary and seeing that part of their hp bar ticking away should give them an idea of what is going on.

then players can have a better understanding of what their status is in a fight when playing as or against a dot user

45 Comments

BismuthiniteOct 18, 201418 votes

Let's turn the HP bar into a rainbow!

Thugger GoonOct 18, 20142 votes

Gay pride brother. lol jk.

1st HanarSpectreOct 18, 20149 votes

I wasn't aware there was a problem in the first place?

QuephaOct 18, 201412 votes

I wasn't aware there was a problem in the first place?

it's something riot says from time to time when talking about champions. they usually mention that dots aren't as fun for the player (not really true when they opt in to playing a dot champion) and annoying for the victim (unsure of damage they're taking)

Tapu FiniOct 18, 201413 votes

glares at Cassiopeia/Stashu

Long Dong WukongOct 18, 201427 votes

I don't know why DoTs are their new anti-fun scapegoat

DoTs give you a ton of time to react to try to stop your death. And sometimes, you do manage to live through a DoT whereas a flat damage spell with the same amount of damage would have instantly killed you.

I don't follow Rito, sorry.

BlazingSalvoOct 18, 20142 votes

In addition DOTs prevent additional repeat damage, like overlapping Brand passive of Malz E, which prevents maximum damage potential without further spacing spells.

And while true, because of this added counterplay, DOTs typically get higher overall damage than up front damage spells to compensate (or rather, they're high and made into DOTs to compensate).

Like the aforementioned Brand's 8% max health damage or Malz's 320+.8 AP E or 55+1.3 AP R. If those damages were up front they would be absolutely absurd. The reason they aren't is because they're DOTs, but that doesn't mean they're the same as other spells, except just DOTs. Nah, they're still absurdly high damage.

I'm sure Riot gets complaints about anything people deem too high damage. Remember when Teemo shrooms were 600+.8 AP plus Liandry's burn right at the start of season 3? Yeah, despite them being technically dodgable (their location discoverable) and also the DOT being over a huge amount of time, no one liked that.

Also, speaking of Liandry's, while in a vacuum being a DOT is a strict drawback, with items, having a DOT is a strict bonus, since it increases Liandry's burn duration and Rylai's duration.

DUDE BROOct 18, 201411 votes

Leblanc kills you instantly before you can press a key.

Swain kills you slowly over 8 seconds.

Nerf dots no counterplay too confusing.

A Muddy ELFOct 19, 20141 votes

Someone with a brain

BlazingSalvoOct 19, 20141 votes

Swain is also dropping AOE on 5 people and can afford to build 3k+ health, but ok.

Garlyle WildsOct 19, 20141 votes

I don't believe they've ever called it anti-fun.

It's just really hard to properly appreciate. You just know a health bar is going down; not "holy shit that one missile just ate 1/5th of my HP". The more damage sources are going around in a fight on the same target, it gets even harder to fully understand and appreciate how much is actually coming from that DoT and make decisions surrounding that, whether on the offense or defense.

DoTs themselves are a very solid mechanic, and Riot knows this; but without some interface changes to make it more clear just how much impact the DoTs are actually having it's hard to 'feel' it properly as either the attacker or the reciever, and being able to instinctively measure these results is important to gameplay as well.

AudiomancyOct 18, 20142 votes

I wasn't aware there was a problem in the first place?

Cassiopeia "DoT is invisible power."

DreamspitterOct 19, 20141 votes

I wasn't aware there was a problem in the first place?

"DoT is invisible power."

what does that mean?

QuephaOct 19, 20142 votes

what does that mean?

an ability that causes a large effect that isn't clear to the players so they may not properly attribute it to that specific variable.

like sona's old auras, people know being near sona gives people more AD/AP but they aren't really clear on how much damage that will add when engaging one or more enemies with a sona standing around. they lose the fight but can't be sure if that was because the enemy had better runes and masteries, were more fed, were better at team fighting, or if sona's aura made the difference. in a team fight you know how much damage syndra did with her ball because the ball hit you and took away a couple bars of health, you aren't really certain how much damage a dot deals because you only see a couple ticks and would have to extrapolate how much of your health was dealt over the rest oof the duration because caitlyn hit you with an auto attack that resets the frame of referance for your health.

DreamspitterOct 19, 20141 votes

what does that mean?

an ability that causes a large effect that isn't clear to the players so they may not properly attribute it to that specific variable.

like sona's old auras, people know being near sona gives people more AD/AP but they aren't really clear on how much damage that will add when engaging one or more enemies with a sona standing around. they lose the fight but can't be sure if that was because the enemy had better runes and masteries, were more fed, were better at team fighting, or if sona's aura made the difference. in a team fight you know how much damage syndra did with her ball because the ball hit you and took away a couple bars of health, you aren't really certain how much damage a dot deals because you only see a couple ticks and would have to extrapolate how much of your health was dealt over the rest oof the duration because caitlyn hit you with an auto attack that resets the frame of referance for your health.

maybe this means we should just fix the Post Death screen.

RaptameiOct 20, 20141 votes

what does that mean?

an ability that causes a large effect that isn't clear to the players so they may not properly attribute it to that specific variable.

Anyone with minimal game knowledge knows what a DoT is.

Riot cares so much about the newbie experience that they remove DoTs but they don't care about the grind wall and the massive amount of bots at low levels.

Kowe The EwokOct 18, 20147 votes

Good idea. And definitely 1000 times better than Stashu's solution to simply decrease their scaling by half...

YfrappefortOct 18, 20141 votes

Good idea. And definitely 1000 times better than Stashu's solution to simply decrease their scaling by half...

Riot likes cutting dot ratio in half. First it was Teemo. Now it's Cass.

Who's next? Malz?

Vellich0rOct 18, 20144 votes

this would be fabulous!

RaptameiOct 18, 20144 votes

Or just stop babying idiots?

SameeshOct 18, 20145 votes

Or just stop babying idiots?

yes ! I can't believe what Im hearing...DOTs are too confusing and not fun? I'm sorry but back in my day DOTs were regarded as the shit and they still are.

Desmond LawOct 18, 20143 votes

Maybe see the would-be damage be colored the enemy's hp color on your hp bar

GunpointOct 18, 20143 votes

I don't get how DoT is "invisible power" You see it happening. They all have effects like Swain where, you either have giant birds flying all over, or Malzahar where you can clearly see particle effects. There is more time to react than just all the sudden having Tibbers appear in the middle of your team and all your carries dead.

EchoezOfRainOct 18, 20142 votes

Has anyone ever played Awesomenauts? They do this exact thing with DoT. A portion of your health bar turns yellow to show how much damage you will eventually take.

PryotraOct 18, 20142 votes

I like the concept, but it would only work on debuffs like Teemo's poison or Ignite.

With things like Fiddle's drain or Swain's Lazarbird, it becomes a little tricky but I feel the abilities are clear enough that the green should give an idea about just how much damage you would take.

As for things like Morg's Tormented soil or Anivia's R, I think this would be both confusing and unneccessary. The abilities are very clear; there is a heal toll for standing in this area. The green would never be accurate, especially with Anivia's R, which if going with the damage potentially applied to the HP Bar, would almost always just fill the bar with green.

QuephaOct 18, 20143 votes

I like the concept, but it would only work on debuffs like Teemo's poison or Ignite.

With things like Fiddle's drain or Swain's Lazarbird, it becomes a little tricky but I feel the abilities are clear enough that the green should give an idea about just how much damage you would take.

As for things like Morg's Tormented soil or Anivia's R, I think this would be both confusing and unneccessary. The abilities are very clear; there is a heal toll for standing in this area. The green would never be accurate, especially with Anivia's R, which if going with the damage potentially applied to the HP Bar, would almost always just fill the bar with green.

i would only seriously consider my idea for "pure" dots. simple debuffs that deal periodic damage over a duration. no tethers or ground targeted aoe dots, no single delayed burst like zilean's bombs. MAYBE stacking dots like twitch passive and reapplying in area dots like singed Q or cassiopeia W if it they aren't too problematic. But it's mainly for the BIG dots that are core to champion kits like cassiopeia Q, malzahar E, teemo E and R, and mordekaiser R.

Bouffon dAnglaisOct 18, 20141 votes

Outrageous.

NovemberrRoseOct 18, 20141 votes

ground targeted aoes damage over times arent exactly the same as true "dots" lol

7ha7guy777Oct 18, 20141 votes

it could also be useful for the DoT users because then you don't waste a spell on someone who is already going to be killed by your malefic visions, etc.

TussOct 18, 20141 votes

As mentioned, I see it being a problem for ground targeted or generally easily reapplyable DOTs, like Teemo's E. But it would indeed be handy for things like Cass and Brand's passive and such.

Cosmic CrowOct 18, 20141 votes

Most Damage over Time abilities have clear indicators of this damage. Although the poison visual is a little hard to see sometimes, most are clearly shown. Darius's and Talon's bleed, Liandry's burn (unless it's on top of Ignite, Brand's burn), Malz's E, Twitch's poison. But there are some who I believe need to be shown more clearly. Udyr and Gangplank both have a DoT (tiger stance, and GP's passive) and it's not as visually obvious to me. Yeah, GP also applies a slow on top of it, and Udyr's tiger stance visual is pretty big on him, but I can't tell what's the auto damage, and the DoT damage.

Having the HP bar show when there's a DoT on you can be a bit confusing though, but it could work somehow. I'm used to it being shown in a lot of RPGs.

I'm not saying there's no counterplay to DoTs. Not at all. Pop a health pot, use innate sustain, use a defensive spell, there's a lot of ways to fight it. I think some clarity on it would just make the gameplay healthier. I think this is what OP was trying to state. Also I don't agree at all about DoT being invisible power. Invisible power to me is Auras and things that give flat stats without clear indicators except for a small glyph under you.

MawootadOct 18, 20141 votes

I would love to get an indicator on how much damage a dot is going to do, but it wouldn't work for most dot effects; you know how much damage ignite will do once it's on someone, but that wouldn't really work for malz pool since the damage is entirely based on you continuing to stand on the pool.

MrSlowDieOct 18, 20141 votes

how about, turn it green, then red, then green, and red again,

should give more clarity than just green

KingsgraveOct 18, 20141 votes

I think it would be better to have some sort of sectioned off area on the bar rather than a specific color, kinda like how shields function on the bar.

Ideas similar to these are ideal because I do agree that DoTs are typically unreadable by both the user and the victims. Part of why I don't like Swain or Malz is because I can barely tell how much I did and it doesn't really feel impactful. If all of a sudden their bar is lit up and sectioned off as "you are going to lose this part" I feel a lot better about playing them.

Only real downside of this is what happens when people can easily see how much they need to heal or shield.

Cosmic CrowOct 18, 20143 votes

I actually love this idea. It shows the ticking down of a section of your health and if you're low health, and you see that your entire bar is that color, that means it's fatal, and you have to act.

KingsgraveOct 18, 20141 votes

Just don't limit entirely to color because some people that play this game are color blind. Having the color + the sectioned off area, similar to shields again, is ideal.

Ch0c0lateJesusOct 19, 20141 votes

DoT reliant champs are vulnerable to burst, they are the easiest to retaliate against.

Having Malz E on you does not prevent you from fighting, thus he can still explode even if his ability is doing fatal damage.

Jungle Lux GodOct 19, 20141 votes

While I like this idea, I think the color change is not the way to do this, especially considering some of the potential handicaps of certain players that would prevent them from being able to see the color change.

A way I think this could be implemented well is that your health bar shakes a bit every time you take damage from a DoT. This way, it is equally readable for all players, not require any differences for different DoT's, and can better reinforce that you are taking damage.

The problem I see with it is that the shaking health bars could cause a lot of clutter on the screen, especially AoE DoT's, so it might be more appropriate if the health bar shakes every second, timed with the tick of the ability so it doesn't clutter the screen too much.

Also, I'm only referring to champion health bars shake, not minions or monsters, because those health bars are not as important to have DoT's be readable with and the possibility for around 8-10 minions to be taking the same DoT at the same time may cause some problems with readability and mechanics problems on older machines.

junglerboy16Oct 19, 20141 votes

He isn't saying that it is hard to tell when you have a DoT on you (It isn't, they all have visual debuffs already), he is saying that DoTs are unclear regarding the AMOUNT of damage that they will deal. That is what makes DoT champs deceptively strong, they often can win a fight when the other player still thinks they will have 50% hp left at the end of a fight. I think his Idea to show in some way the amount the DoT will deal before it is complete is genius, but there are probably other ways than colored hp bars that could represent it (That way there wouldn't be any colorblind issues like you were concerned about).

QuephaOct 20, 20141 votes

While I like this idea, I think the color change is not the way to do this, especially considering some of the potential handicaps of certain players that would prevent them from being able to see the color change.

how do colorblind people currently deal with barriers and spell damage barriers?

QuephaOct 20, 20141 votes

this thread was at the top all weekend then when rioters actually get back to work it's fallen off the front page ;_;

QuephaOct 21, 20141 votes

Bump. it sounds like it would be hard to make this feature accessible to colorblind people, i am interested in possible solutions and how that issue is dealt with for the already existing barriers and spell barriers.