Entire team works to keep her protected in the early game She finishes some items The player has amazing mechanics on her Then late game she just gets jumped on and blown up before she can kill anything WOW WHAT A HYPERCARRY MONSTER GREAT REWORK RIOT
Canastus48 votesPretty much this. Her lanephase is already the weakest phase of the game for her (constant threat of ganks, lack of proper vision and extreme mana issues) and once the time comes where she's supposed to shine she still can't do anything due to her horrendous handicaps.
If she tries to keep a safe distance, she won't be there at the crucial part of the teamfight due to her immobility. If she tries to stay in range of the action, she'll get focused down and dies immediately. The risk/reward ratio is entirely skewed to her disadvantage, she just isn't worth the trouble of playing if you'll never get to do what she's actually supposed to do.
Both situations are simply bad for her and your team won't even try to peel for you once things get hot, they'd much rather protect their adc. Cassiopeia's current kit just doesn't work for a lategame hypercarry, she'd need far more safety and range to make up for her inherent squishyness to be even considered a viable pick in that role.
Old Cass was literally capable of melting entire teams with her poison-damage, now THAT was some true hypercarry stuff. It's incredible to see by how much they missed their goal with this rework just to ditch her afterwards as if nothing happened. We've yet to see any compensation for this.
Also new Cass skin when? It's been almost 3 years (!) since she received her last one.
Squidblimp12 votesCan you explain to me how her laning phase is weak? She can all-in at level 2 and kill an opponent, or at least force them to flash. I don't quite understand how that's weak? I don't play Cass, so if you could enlighten me?
Quepha25 votesCan you explain to me how her laning phase is weak? She can all-in at level 2 and kill an opponent, or at least force them to flash. I don't quite understand how that's weak? I don't play Cass, so if you could enlighten me?
That's just plain wrong. She runs out of mana before she can kill her opponent. You can actually see it happen that game, Cass goes to help out in a fight in the north river and just goes oom before making a dent in the hps.
Her damage is so sad before her big items that an enemy standing in all her skillshots and eating twin fangs to the face will just run her out of mp. I literally tried this last night against a Brand Bot in Co-op v AI.
Meep Man4 votesI disagree with half of that. She will certainly make a dent in the enemy health, but not one big enough for a kill unless she has an ally nearby.
FistOfSharkiesha5 votesNot really true. At rank 1 her twin fang is just slightly lower base damage and comparable ap ratios to other single abilities, but she can use it 6 times per Q hit. She can be hardcountered by enemies like Lux but she can also hardcounter several champions such as Swain, Ryze, and Vladamir.
She has a lot of problems but I think a good first step would be to have her passive give her some sort of defensive properties instead of just a free 30% AP. Maybe a shield, maybe AR/MR based on AP. Idk but she needs some defensive trait to work. Rylais and Zhonyas isn't enough.
yoniame2 votesir just change her passive, increase her scales, and give one of her poison spells spellvamp, make e non spammable, and increase ulti range
A Liberal5 votesI play Cass quite a bit and while she can't level 2 all in, she can level 3 all in with ignite and kill a squishy mid. Normally I just farm until I hit 100 stacks, than I go for an all in, it really is a great powerspike for her.
UtilityPunk1 votesIt sounds a bit like you're saying 'she can't all in at 2... and she can't at 3 unless the odds are stacked in her favour'. So then at 4, she can finally all in... sort of with ignite ^_^
A Liberal2 votesAt level 2 her dmg on her e isn't strong enough since it only has one level in it. At level 3 I normally take 2 levels in E if I intend to try and go for a kill, and by than you MIGHT be able to all in and kill if they are squishy enough and don't have an escape, however, at level 4 its pretty easy to all in with ignite or at least force their flash due to the slow on miasma.
All that said, her laning phase is supposed to be weak because come lategame once she has her core items shes a complete monster.
fééd l0rd2 votesThat's just plain wrong. She runs out of mana before she can kill her opponent. You can actually see it happen that game, Cass goes to help out in a fight in the north river and just goes oom before making a dent in the hps.
Her damage is so sad before her big items that an enemy standing in all her skillshots and eating twin fangs to the face will just run her out of mp. I literally tried this last night against a Brand Bot in Co-op v AI.
so you want a late game hyper carry to be strong early?
Quepha20 votesso you want a late game hyper carry to be strong early?
Follow the thread. He said Cass could all in, she can't.
The original premise of the thread is that Cass is not a successful hyper carry. Even if she makes it to late game she can't carry as evidenced by c9 v h2k game 2. Her early game is like a hypercarry's early, but her lategame is worthless.
And I merely don't want her to be a hypercarry, I don't think her kit functions in that case as it's too counterable.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesSame world a lot of Skarner players are in now. "I picked Skarner to be a sticky inescapable monster." Riot guts his stats, puts some rocks on the map with his old stats and says he's now a neutral objective controller.
Captain Aishi3 votescan confirm, went OOM using E at level2 against an azir last time i played cass :S RIP
Canastus5 votesJust like the creator of this thread said, her mana issues are preventing her from finishing off anyone who already starts with one or two potions in their inventory since she'll be oom before even killing them. There's also the constant threat of being ganked which is extremely easy to pull off on an immobile champion like Cassiopeia. I've made a little edit to the upper post to make it a bit clearer.
Also since green wards aren't available anymore, you'll be stuck with a single pink ward and a nerfed yellow trinket for the first 9 levels. She simply can't ward as good as she used to anymore which prevents her from ever going into the offensive once she got a couple of items.
SSJTHREE2 votesJust like the creator of this thread said, her mana issues are preventing her from finishing off anyone who already starts with one or two potions in their inventory since she'll be oom before even killing them. There's also the constant threat of being ganked which is extremely easy to pull off on an immobile champion like Cassiopeia. I've made a little edit to the upper post to make it a bit clearer.
Also since green wards aren't available anymore, you'll be stuck with a single pink ward and a nerfed yellow trinket for the first 9 levels. She simply can't ward as good as she used to anymore which prevents her from ever going into the offensive once she got a couple of items.
OH WOW you can shutdown a lategame monster in the early game! HOW CAN THIS BE?! WHY IS THIS ALLOWED??
Quepha6 votesOH WOW you can shutdown a lategame monster in the early game! HOW CAN THIS BE?! WHY IS THIS ALLOWED??
You can shut her down in the lategame too. Even getting to lategame doesn't result in a payoff for her garbage early.
SSJTHREE2 votesYou can shut her down in the lategame too. Even getting to lategame doesn't result in a payoff for her garbage early.
you can shutdown every champion in the lategame. even a fullbuild vayne can die within 1 second. her lategame is terrefying and you know that exactly... her early game is not garbage. she is immobile? she is a mage dude. high mana costs? anivia says hi. every other mage says hi. atleast cassio can restore some mana with her e.
if you see the enemy team picked rengar jungle, zed mit and maokai top you should not pick cassio. if you blindpick her it's simply your fault. aoe stun combined with dot damage and a spammable spell which deals 150 damage every 0.1 second and lets her q/w spell deal more damage. wow so underpowered pls buff.
Quepha7 votesyou can shutdown every champion in the lategame. even a fullbuild vayne can die within 1 second. her lategame is terrefying and you know that exactly... her early game is not garbage. she is immobile? she is a mage dude. high mana costs? anivia says hi. every other mage says hi. atleast cassio can restore some mana with her e.
if you see the enemy team picked rengar jungle, zed mit and maokai top you should not pick cassio. if you blindpick her it's simply your fault. aoe stun combined with dot damage and a spammable spell which deals 150 damage every 0.1 second and lets her q/w spell deal more damage. wow so underpowered pls buff.
Cass is more easily shut down by a larger number of things than any viable hypercarry should be. Her early game is worse than even a hypercarry's deserves to be. Anivia has high mana costs but if she lands every single skillshot her opponent is going to be in trouble, Cass however will run out of mana first while the enemy just laughs at her.
Cass was viable for a small amount of time after her rework, and it was awful. Her kit just doesn't work because her numbers have to be insane for her to not get destroyed by every comp the enemy could possibly go for.
SSJTHREE3 votesCass is more easily shut down by a larger number of things than any viable hypercarry should be. Her early game is worse than even a hypercarry's deserves to be. Anivia has high mana costs but if she lands every single skillshot her opponent is going to be in trouble, Cass however will run out of mana first while the enemy just laughs at her.
Cass was viable for a small amount of time after her rework, and it was awful. Her kit just doesn't work because her numbers have to be insane for her to not get destroyed by every comp the enemy could possibly go for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhbTjB5L9o OMG SHE IS SO OOM THERE BUFF HERE 2:40 shows exactly how strong her laning can be and how dangerous she is.
The Queen Viper2 votesOld video is old... it's pre-season now, things changed.
Quepha2 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhbTjB5L9o OMG SHE IS SO OOM THERE BUFF HERE 2:40 shows exactly how strong her laning can be and how dangerous she is.
That was 5.2, in 5.6 she took a pretty significant nerf with her rabadon's interaction (hitting her lategame damage) then in 5.10 she took some really significant nerfs to her mana regen and hp sustain. Before those nerfs was the brief period I mentioned where she was OP and Riot had to put a stop to it.
SSJTHREE1 votesThat was 5.2, in 5.6 she took a pretty significant nerf with her rabadon's interaction (hitting her lategame damage) then in 5.10 she took some really significant nerfs to her mana regen and hp sustain. Before those nerfs was the brief period I mentioned where she was OP and Riot had to put a stop to it.
she had to get nerfed, she was oppressive in pro play.
her another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_tB7mmfSTo 1:40 proves how dangerous cass can be early.
Quepha3 votesshe had to get nerfed, she was oppressive in pro play.
Right. Cass's current kit means that if she's good she's oppressive and if she isn't oppressive she's trash.
SSJTHREE1 votesRight. Cass's current kit means that if she's good she's oppressive and if she isn't oppressive she's trash.
Any ideas of how to fix that?
Quepha2 votesAny ideas of how to fix that?
Not really my job, but it's still fun to spitball ideas.
I think she was better before the rework when she was balanced around being scary in the early game and easily shut down in the late.
IF she were to remain a hypercarry, I think the way to keep her play pattern the closest to its current form would be to make her more like a bruiser mage who can afford to build durability and still deal damage, like Ryze (does new Ryze still do that? I really have no idea how he works since his rework).
That would probably mean reducing her dependency on AP scaling and increasing her base damages at high level somehow. Given that dps champs generally deal most of their damage to tanks, some kind of %hp/true damage/resistance shred (things that Vayne and Kog'maw get!) on her poisons would be very effective and also feel flavorful. I think this kind of effect from aspect stacks would also feel way more like a reward than AP boosts which feel like you just don't have your real AP ratios at the start of the game. Increasing the base on her heal and reducing or removing the ratio would also keep Cass from feeling like she NEEDS to go full AP.
Then this bruiser/tankbuster Cass would be a champ that can stand to get close enough to a team fight to actually use her spells, doesn't feel like she needs to hit the back line to make a real difference, and genuinely requires some focus fire to bring down, making her actually feel like a hyper carry.
Lhostalis1 votesI'm a dirty casual, but from reading you post and drawing from my own limited knowledge of the game she sounds vaguely like AP vayne. Just without a support to peel for her.
Quepha7 votesI'm a dirty casual, but from reading you post and drawing from my own limited knowledge of the game she sounds vaguely like AP vayne. Just without a support to peel for her.
Vayne has amazing mobility and stealth that allows her to cross terrain, chase down kills, and get away from bad situations. Cass's movespeed buff is worse at all those things and if she misses a single Q, bye bye movespeed, bye bye dps, she is dead in the water.
questir19 votesGood work Rito and Stashu that was a succesfull rework /s
TheUltimateSpear6 votesI hope this will get people to be reasonable.
"Cassiopeia is balanced after the nerfs, you're just bad/don't like the rework/don't know how to play her."
No, Cassiopeia is in a bad spot, dammit.
And the rework was trash too.
[zombie-nunu-bummed]
JSTIN85 votesWell to be fair, that can happen to any hyper carry sans vayne late game. As a Nasus I have just started refusing to teamfight against certain comps or if they have janna.
Theturtlebox5 votesVayne has ways to deal with being jumped on (tumble, invisibility, condemn). Cassiopeia has maybe her ult if she can land it, and a slight ms boost and a little area that slows people.
JSTIN82 votesThat was my point. If you get jumped on and stun fucked to death, it doesnt matter if you are a hyper carry or a support, you will die. Unless you are vayne because its fine to do some of the most bullshit damage and still have some of the best self peel an ADC could ask for.
Sasogwa3 votesI don't think Cass is that bad, she's just sort of a situational pick, kinda like Kog'maw. She doesn't do well in the meta, but if the meta shifts to defensive tanks with weaker engage, she's absolutely insane at dps'ing. Whenever she was meta, it was because she had borderline unfair laning phase, early on you could literally not trade her in melee as a melee champion if she had poison - spam E. Then she got nerfed out of proplay by nerfing her mana pool early, if I recall correctly. Might be wrong on that one nerf, I'll check later.
The thing is as her kit is currently, she's either a bit toxic to play against (laning mostly) or she's too weak.
And I agree it kind of has to do with her rework bland kit. According to most Cassiopeia mains I've heard (I don't really play the champion myself), she's no longer a "poison mage" but more of a spam-E bot. Hell, wasn't she even better pre-rework?
Quepha10 votesI don't think Cass is that bad, she's just sort of a situational pick, kinda like Kog'maw. She doesn't do well in the meta, but if the meta shifts to defensive tanks with weaker engage, she's absolutely insane at dps'ing. Whenever she was meta, it was because she had borderline unfair laning phase, early on you could literally not trade her in melee as a melee champion if she had poison - spam E. Then she got nerfed out of proplay by nerfing her mana pool early, if I recall correctly. Might be wrong on that one nerf, I'll check later.
The thing is as her kit is currently, she's either a bit toxic to play against (laning mostly) or she's too weak.
And I agree it kind of has to do with her rework bland kit. According to most Cassiopeia mains I've heard (I don't really play the champion myself), she's no longer a "poison mage" but more of a spam-E bot. Hell, wasn't she even better pre-rework?
I think being so oppressive when viable is a product of her fundamentally flawed kit. She has several counters: CC her from outside her mediocre range, mobility to jump on top of her and dodge her skillshots, burst her down before she can deal dps, or just make her suffer so much in the early game that she'll never recover. When there are so many paths to victory against her and those paths are things that teams already want to build to do, then pretty much every comp is a "counter" to her, and her winrate only goes up when her numbers are so high that she can just ignore any of the ways you're supposed to beat her.
The best comparison is kog'maw. He also has a weak early game that builds into lategame dps. But his range is off the scale: His autos are comparable to Cass's twin fang but don't require that setup where you land a skillshot first, his other abilities are even longer range, his R starts at more than 50% more range than that and increases to over 2.5x her range, not only that but his slow field is much larger and his passive (as hated as it is) makes it hard to dive him without getting killed yourself.
You can still work to shut him down in the early game, or you can dive him and get a pretty secure kill (but you really need a lot of mobility to also get out without getting killed yourself), but trying to burst or cc him at range just doesn't work because you're in range of him waaaay before you can reasonably land your cc. This means there are a bunch of comps where his life is legitimately easy, and when his numbers are to the point where he can win in those cases, his winrate goes up without having to get his numbers into the stratosphere so he can also survive an Insec kicking him into a gangbang.
Sasogwa1 votesI think being so oppressive when viable is a product of her fundamentally flawed kit. She has several counters: CC her from outside her mediocre range, mobility to jump on top of her and dodge her skillshots, burst her down before she can deal dps, or just make her suffer so much in the early game that she'll never recover. When there are so many paths to victory against her and those paths are things that teams already want to build to do, then pretty much every comp is a "counter" to her, and her winrate only goes up when her numbers are so high that she can just ignore any of the ways you're supposed to beat her.
The best comparison is kog'maw. He also has a weak early game that builds into lategame dps. But his range is off the scale: His autos are comparable to Cass's twin fang but don't require that setup where you land a skillshot first, his other abilities are even longer range, his R starts at more than 50% more range than that and increases to over 2.5x her range, not only that but his slow field is much larger and his passive (as hated as it is) makes it hard to dive him without getting killed yourself.
You can still work to shut him down in the early game, or you can dive him and get a pretty secure kill (but you really need a lot of mobility to also get out without getting killed yourself), but trying to burst or cc him at range just doesn't work because you're in range of him waaaay before you can reasonably land your cc. This means there are a bunch of comps where his life is legitimately easy, and when his numbers are to the point where he can win in those cases, his winrate goes up without having to get his numbers into the stratosphere so he can also survive an Insec kicking him into a gangbang.
Well Kog'maw's ult sure has insane range, but his DPS is with his W that has 590-710 range depending on rank. Cassio's E has 700 range. Those are very similar
Quepha8 votesWell Kog'maw's ult sure has insane range, but his DPS is with his W that has 590-710 range depending on rank. Cassio's E has 700 range. Those are very similar
I agree, those are very similar, although 710 is technically farther (I assume full rank because both champs are advertised as late game hypercarries). However, Kog'maw doesn't have to land skillshots to use his autos, his window for getting off dps is longer and can start on demand, he is locked down for a smaller period of time on each auto, if he accidentally fires an auto at a non poisoned minion he won't be locked out of his auto attacks for 4 seconds, and his slow field is MUCH larger which makes covering that range between him and you much more difficult.
And I don't think his ult should be so casually dismissed, being able to soften up your targets from a whopping 1800 range is huge when you're a dps champion, because every point of hp taken off before the fight adds up to seconds earlier you will win the fight. Cass's Q doesn't have that kind of range, and its damage is pathetic unless you're also connecting with twin fangs.
Cass's tools for a fight that she has but Kog'maw does not are the MS boost on her Q and her Ult. Her ult is ridiculously predictable and when the enemy is within that range of you, a slow often is not enough to save you. Her ms boost also isn't that helpful because it means you have to land your skillshots: miss one and you're up shit creek since you can't go at the speed you need or even deal any damage.
Sasogwa3 votesI agree, those are very similar, although 710 is technically farther (I assume full rank because both champs are advertised as late game hypercarries). However, Kog'maw doesn't have to land skillshots to use his autos, his window for getting off dps is longer and can start on demand, he is locked down for a smaller period of time on each auto, if he accidentally fires an auto at a non poisoned minion he won't be locked out of his auto attacks for 4 seconds, and his slow field is MUCH larger which makes covering that range between him and you much more difficult.
And I don't think his ult should be so casually dismissed, being able to soften up your targets from a whopping 1800 range is huge when you're a dps champion, because every point of hp taken off before the fight adds up to seconds earlier you will win the fight. Cass's Q doesn't have that kind of range, and its damage is pathetic unless you're also connecting with twin fangs.
Cass's tools for a fight that she has but Kog'maw does not are the MS boost on her Q and her Ult. Her ult is ridiculously predictable and when the enemy is within that range of you, a slow often is not enough to save you. Her ms boost also isn't that helpful because it means you have to land your skillshots: miss one and you're up shit creek since you can't go at the speed you need or even deal any damage.
While I agree at most of what you're saying, Kog'maw's ult has been drastically changed damage-wise to be an execute move It's way stronger when your opponents are low life, and therefore much weaker at poking, softening your opponents as you said
"Living Artillery's damage is doubled against enemies below 50% maximum health, and tripled against enemies below 25% maximum health."
I'm guessing it's partially a reason of Kog'maw's low winrate.
Quepha4 votesWhile I agree at most of what you're saying, Kog'maw's ult has been drastically changed damage-wise to be an execute move It's way stronger when your opponents are low life, and therefore much weaker at poking, softening your opponents as you said
"Living Artillery's damage is doubled against enemies below 50% maximum health, and tripled against enemies below 25% maximum health."
Even still, I would use it to poke when it's at zero stacks, not to mention finishing off a target out of your range is pretty nice. I sure wish Cass could do that but her ranges aren't so good and without a champion to land a Q on she has no hope of catching up with anyone.
iamleburk2 votesShe does pretty good against low engage comps. She also works kind of like a juggernaut in which she sits near the ADC and zones you away from them, killing you if you try to dive. Certain dives will still get them, which is what you saw in game 5 of the finals with Key's big Headbutt-Pulv near baron, but unless you knock up both the person diving is going to be pretty screwed.
She actually is a lot like a short range ADC in which she's more to chip away at their front line during a fight, as opposed to most mages who just burst. She has her niche, she's just not good enough at it atm.
What would you suggest for another rework? I was thinking of maybe putting her damage in landing Qs. Maybe E now keeps someone poisoned for a little bit longer, and Qing a poisoned target does extra damage. This might work weird with her W, but honestly you could probably give her a new W, maybe some type of line skillshot poison spit type of thing. Not that i have a problem with her machine gun mage stuff, but i feel like she would be better as a DOT mage instead
Chuck Charles2 votesor you know the enemy team played around her well. it is pro play ya know. these guys uh know a thing or two about the game. that cass is picked at all lets you know she is considered a strong pick. OG power of evil picked her and is a beast on her.
could she use a rework or maybe some tweaks? probably. but let's not pretend that shes so bad right now just because in pro play she lost one game.
Quepha7 votes[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEWyMjl4,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-20T00:37:37.571+0000)
or you know the enemy team played around her well. it is pro play ya know. these guys uh know a thing or two about the game. that cass is picked at all lets you know she is considered a strong pick. OG power of evil picked her and is a beast on her.
That logic seems sound, but hearing the commentators when the pick happen, then watching how many thing had to go right in the lane phase for Cass to not get ruined, seeing all the player's mechanics on Cass (amazing stun on Lee Sin with ult, farming techniques with poisons and twin fang), and then watching Cass still be useless every single team fight... It didn't feel like she's just behind the pack with a niche that makes her a decent pocket pick. It felt like he just plain made a mistake at champ select and picked a champ that could not get the job done.
Laggiest Medic1 votesim kind of confused, people seem to complain about cass alot but i feel like ive read theyre doing a rework? i might be wrong
Quepha17 votes[{quoted}](name=Laggiest Medic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEWyMjl4,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-12-20T01:10:10.660+0000)
im kind of confused, people seem to complain about cass alot but i feel like ive read theyre doing a rework? i might be wrong
They did a rework late 2014 for the shurima event and she's been in a really bad state ever since, they said they'll look into her next year but we haven't heard much.
TotalJerk7 votesThat whole event spawned a mess of bad decisions, in hindsight. They've admitted that the reason Azir was so fucked up was that he was rushed out the door so he'd be released in time for the Shurima event.
SpongebobIsLife1 votesas of a few days ago, Riot admitted that Cassiopeia would be needing a new rework, but they said it will be far down the line before she gets another one.
Quepha9 votesas of a few days ago, Riot admitted that Cassiopeia would be needing a new rework, but they said it will be far down the line before she gets another one.
And this makes me quite mad. Pretty much from the moment Cass hit the PBE people started threads on the forums to point out how awful her changes were, how she was underpowered, and pointing out a massive bug that was destroying her dps (aka the only thing she brings). Riot totally ignored all the feedback and pushed it live, then went completely radio silent for more than a full month despite the negative feedback multiplying and her winrate dropping to the bottom of the barrel, below 40%.
They released a big change to a champion and couldn't make the time to follow up, even for bug fixes. It just feels like Riot really half-assed everything and then moved on to the next project right afterwards.
