There's something wrong with the PBE

Quepha··152 votes·7,333 views

By which I mean, the PBE is not accomplishing what it is supposed to.

The PBE is SUPPOSED to be a place to test changes before they hit live so upsets to the balance aren't unusually large, to find out how players respond to changes to see if they're fun.

What it appears the PBE ACTUALLY IS, is a place where a small subset of the playerbase can preview changes before they hit live. the PBE appears to be treated as too far down the pipe to actually change anything before it goes out.

  • Lucian's range was reduced but compensated by giving him insane mobility and manaless dashes. it looked broken on paper, it felt broken on the PBE, people on the PBE said it was completely broken... riot released it in the initial state with no changes and for one patch Lucian was dominating bot lane even more than he typically does. Riot literally said "oops".
  • Cassiopeia's rework was put on the PBE. Players on the PBE said it didn't feel like cassiopeia, nor did it feel fun. Players noticed there was a glitch with her cooldowns that destroyed her dps... riot released it in the initial state and she was literally unplayable for weeks, and then only figuratively unplayable for months (and still is) as she's been basically going through another full rework's worth of changes. I like how gutting her happened in the blink of an eye but you guys are being super cautious about fixing her, you wouldn't want cass players to start having fun again too soon.
  • Azir was incredibly buggy on the PBE, people were sure that he would need more time before release because he was completely unplayable... riot released him on schedule and has been fixing about 10% of his bugs every patch while also giving him numbers buffs to compensate for the rest of his bugs, so when his bugs ARE fixed he'll need to be nerfed again.
  • The new jungle was on the PBE, everyone said it was way too hard except for a select few sustain junglers... riot released it as-is and warwick is DESTROYING THE GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE. Riot says they want to nerf warwick because he's obscuring everything that's going on, but it's obvious that stuff like udyr and volibear are only right behind him and they're going to need at least one more cycle of whack-a-mole before they can actually look at how the new jungle does and does not support different jungler champions. so we're looking at like 2 or 3 more full patch cycles before riot even starts to look at the new jungle in a proper test live setting for balance. doesn't the next season actually have to start some time?

A while ago Riot said they would start using the PBE to test much more dramatic changes and players shouldn't be alarmed because they were going to still be cautious with their testing. I believed them for exactly one patch cycle when i was wandering around forums telling people to ease up because of what riot had just said, and every change went through exactly like it was on the PBE, so I guess riot just forgot about that new policy.

I don't know if Riot doesn't choose proper test samples for their PBE group, or if players don't test properly because it isn't worth their time to play long league matches without IP rewards on their main account, or if the matchmaking is just thrown to shit because you have a smaller player pool, but it feels like Riot has been increasingly using the PBE as a scapegoat for awful changes that ruin the game because "we get better data in the first few hours on live than we do from weeks on the PBE" Maybe that means your PBE is fucked up and you need to figure out how to do testing so your live game will stop feeling like your testing ground.

68 Comments

Quepha53 votes

Another point that I didn't think was worthy of the OP: If Riot is increasingly depending on the live environment to test changes, then why are new or recently reworked champs available in ranked while old and balanced champs are not available in ranked while on free week? there are literally zero arguments that apply to disabling free week champs that don't apply to disabling newly released champs.

DUDE BRO9 votes

Also, with item 3718, warwick immediately gets +400 damage to his ult the moment he turns lvl 6.

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

40 x 5 = 200

Finis Phoenix1 votes

Amen

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Another point that I didn't think was worthy of the OP: If Riot is increasingly depending on the live environment to test changes, then why are new or recently reworked champs available in ranked while old and balanced champs are not available in ranked while on free week? there are literally zero arguments that apply to disabling free week champs that don't apply to disabling newly released champs.

There is at least one such argument: make people spend ip/rp to pay anything in ranked. Prolly just a wise business decision here.

ParinoidPanda24 votes

There definitely feels like a huge disconnect between Riot, the PBE and Live.

I feel like Riot gives their employees too much freedom when it comes to what input they receive for their decision making. I know everytime something is released to the PBE, they add a tag "we'll be watching and tweaking" for when items make it to the PBE, but after a few months of actually paying attention to the PBE, I can safely agree with your point completely, that they don't.

The only time something was fixed on the PBE that I remember was when Sion VU for Warmonger got a lot of criticism and was changed to what a fan had proposed (now the current itteration of the skin). Past that, yes, nothing gets "changed" or "fixed" on the PBE as a result of the PBE input from the players.

I know Riot has taken the stance that data overrules opinions and "feel" but I thought the whole point of the PBE was to fix the "feel" of things before going to Live. i.e. the OP's examples.

Honestly, the PBE is essentially a 2-week window to what Live will look like in the next patch. It does not perform its purpose of "beta-ing" anything. If it were to receive an accurate label, it would be the "pre-live assembly zone" because that's what it functions as. Stuff gets loaded up and assembled for going to live, and if they can't make something work, they take it off. Once it's all assembled 2 days before Patch-Day, that's the patch.

RoyaiChaos5 votes

Most art-related things on PBE are changed with feedback. Ex: Ahri and Wukong splashes (I'm still waiting for Janna :C), and Blood moon Elise.

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Well, the VU team does a good job when they receive feedback. Saldy that doesn't count for the balancing /rework team... The only good rework out of the last 5 was Soraka.

TonyTonyMordecai4 votes

You're forgetting Viktor's rework. That was a good thing :/

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

True, I totally forgot about him.

Canastus9 votes

Absolutely not true when it comes to the Cass VU. Her Desperada skin has to be the worst offender in that regard, they keep ignoring any posts which question their design choice.

There also have been multiple threads regarding her classic skin and they still haven't responded to any of them.

Wingling1 votes

Don't forget Ravager Nocturne. I feel like anyone who likes less common skins is just ignored (and warmonger doesn't count, because while only a small group of people used the skin before, a huge amount of attention came from people who only wanted the skin because of the update).

RoyaiChaos1 votes

Champion model and splash have never looked exactly the same, the splash is often times much more detailed than the model. Yes, there could be some more detail given to the model and it would be nice if it were added, but it's not really necessary no matter how cool it is.

Canastus2 votes

This doesn't give them the right to ignore the most blatant inconsistency of them all, her ventral scales. All her other skins have a regular width for her "snakebelly", only her classic one seems to be affected by this bad and unreasonable design choice.

How would she even slither over the floor if that stripe of scales is so incredibly narrow? What on earth gave them the idea to make them so thin in the first place? The ventralscales on her splashart don't imply anything like that.

Canastus20 votes

You could say there's something wrong with Riot itself.

The Cass rework is probably among the biggest disasters this game has ever seen. Three flipping months have passed since that abomination has arrived on live servers and still not a single bit of progress. The next patch will be just another waste of time since it still has that godawful passive in place.

Just thinking about how they kept ignoring the feedback prior to 4.16 is enough to turn me raging mad, and they're still doing it. My contempt for this company has reached a whole new level during those last months.

LupusNox9 votes

eh, Olaf "rework" had similar feel and bad taste and was handled just as poorly IMO, and thats pushing a year if I'm not mistaken.

Riot really only cares about what's in the limelight at the current moment when it comes to balancing. Warwick goes unplayed for almost 3 years and then meta changes drastically and hes super mega OP. Its not new jungles or items fault, warwick just has terrible design and so were gonna nerf him till rework, never mind that we haven't touched him since S2 mana nerfs.

The PBE is almost useless for balance since Riot takes almost no player feedback to heart and even if someone says "hey, if you do this with new champ/item/build, its gamebreakingly OP" riot just blows it off as PBE nonsense and lets it hit live, at which point they realize how bad for the game it is and fix it a patch later. Its our fault as well. Too many times a player posts "X champ broken on PBE" and people dismiss it because "too early to tell/PBE has no balance/stfu noob." Then the champ turns out as they said it would and everyone just says "well, how were we to know?"

The PBE and PBE board need to be deeper in Riots development cycle for feedback and balance issues, because in at least the last 2 patches, many things which Riot calls balanced have been absurdly broken.

Orbv4 votes

Not that I disagree on your main point, but Warwick has not been unplayed for even a year. Back in March they had to nerf him because Mage-wick Top was an issue that they didn't want to deal with and was dominating. He's always been in use, but people just keep forgetting him. He is a design issue, but I'm okay with him when there's other failures coming out of the woodwork.

Graiskye12 votes

PBE is an illusion. In reality there is too much toxicity in the game for any real merit to be extracted. Its there simply to give the illusion of a 'testing ground' where the public get too have their say.....lol. Im sure the initial intention was otherwise and pure, but its been perverted into just a preview for the people that want to go to the trouble of getting an account. I participated for about a year a couple of years ago, whenrt you simply had to download the client and register an account to play. All it was at the time, it seemed to me, was a preview show for savvy players. Bugs that had been reported multiple times made it into the game, some still in it to this day Im sure. Riot is kinda wierd. If they better utilized it, and cracked down on the toxic factor they might be able to get some positive play testing, but when they refuse to listen to the few dedicated testers they seems to have, it sens the message to the mass of PBE players that Riot dont give two fucks about bugs, or champion effectiveness ineffectiveness etc... so why should anyone bother to look for em. PBE works like this...log in, check out the new skins(leave game as soon as youve had a look and are subsequently bored with old champ, what they dont need to test 4v5 scenarios too, of course they do...) play a few game on the new champs, Ciao... and that about sums up probably 95-99% of the players on the server. People have tried to change it, they try to help, but it has to come from the top down, the players are really powerless to make any meaningful changes.

Budupops10 votes

Rito is toxic

Xonra9 votes

It isn't as if we don't give feedback on the PBE it just isn't actually listened to 99.9% of the time, then there is a sudden "surprise" when what we had been saying is the same on live as if it hadn't been the same exact way on the PBE.

For a lot of us we do play games to TEST new champions, not just play them to be first like a few do (there really needs to be a better process of picking PBE candidates is all I'm saying). There also need to be direct contacts made such as the feedback forms given when I did the LeaverBuster testing, which they actually listened to.

The problem is whoever is taking the feedback from the PBe doesn't seem to be giving it to the right people or they ignore it because they assume they will get better information going live....which seems to defeat the purpose of even testing or having a PBE.

We told Riot Feral Flare was going to be way too strong on release, and it was. We told Riot Lucian's change to his dash was a bit awkward and anything but a nerf, they didn't listen We have been screaming at them "This jungle is far too hard unless you have lots of sustain" they just pushed it harder because they were excited about it, completely ignoring the feedback.

What more can we do when we tell them what is up, they don't listen, then act like they are surprised when the feedback given comes to light on live, then we "PBE'ers" are blamed as if we aren't properly testing and given feedback...Riot just doesn't listen to it.

Flemman6 votes

I think during a recent rework (sona or skarner), a rioter stated that PBE isn't here for the player to tell them how to balance the game, it's just here to report bug.

They don't see the pbe like we hope they see

Another key problem with the pbe is that it take years to acces it (apply during sona rework, still waiting and seeing some of my prefered champ being reworked >-<). That will be fine if it was just that but, if your are suspicious about a change and express yourself here, having rioter saying you just had to test it on the pbe just leave a bad taste in the mouth as you are aware you will probably never acces it in time

Tapu Fini4 votes

This kind of crap has been happening at least as far back as Karma. She hit the PBE and within a week or two went live, with absolutely no player feedback taken in. This is nothing new, and it sucks. Once it's on the PBE, it is absolutely not being touched beyond minor tweaks (Numbers, colors, little things like that.)

They say they don't want the PBE to be a place for people to see the content ahead of time, but that's what they're making it by refusing to hear the playerbase's opinions.

Damorion2154 votes

Just another point in showing how Riot doesn't care about the community.

Kingsgrave3 votes

They always wanted the jungle to be difficult and they actually did listen to concerns. They buffed Machete, lowered camp damages and improved smite bonuses and jungle items before releasing it onto the live servers.

You need to understand that it makes sense for Riot to be overly skeptical of feedback from those who use the PBE since its such a small sample of players compared to the millions that will test it within hours of it being released. The same thing could be said about the forums, its a very small sample of people and it does honestly seem like Riot just kinda fake nods and rolls their eyes at it considering they just view it as a vocal minority.

FantasySniper3 votes

Yeah, a lot of things go through without proper bug-testing, let alone balance-testing.

But it's all for SHURIMAAzir

MrBuffington3 votes

Yea, it's really rare that PBE changes are reverted; a lot of what PBE seems to test for is like, bugs. If these recent PBE changes are supposed to be so experimental, I'd expect there to be more aggressive changes back and forth on PBE. There should be a PAE (public alpha environment), just so there is more feedback further up the line. Internal playtests seem abysmal for actually testing changes if they feel like they don't get good data until the live environment gets to test out changes, especially since I often hear how there are actually very few high elo players who work at Riot. One thing I remember being repeatedly emphasized during the Cass changes was the reliability for checking poison on E, and how that was supposed to be some sort of enormous buff that justifies all her ratios getting gutted; really it just seems like a QoL change.

ULTRAF0RCE3 votes

Well they have tested the range change on quinn on pbe multiple times and haven't released it so that is an example of a test that hasn't yet been released

Fried Noob2 votes

The PBE is designed to try and catch balance issues, but it's never going to do as great a job as live does with catching them all. It's mostly able to catch common, game breaking bugs and major balance issues, which it dies fairly well. The reason why it doesn't catch everything is because the PBE is such a small fraction of the total LoL community that there simply isn't enough people to test every possible scenario to get a complete picture of what is and is not balanced and why uncommon bugs or buggy interactions with underplayed champions slip through.

Canastus14 votes

The reason why it doesn't catch everything is because the PBE is such a small fraction of the total LoL community that there simply isn't enough people to test every possible scenario

That's not true, many of the issues which are being complained about were already mentioned on the PBE boards. And yet they didn't recieve the slightest bit of attention, the same happened during the Cass rework when people talked about the massive delay on her E which singlehandely turned her into the worst champion this game has ever seen with a winrate of LESS than 30%. They didn't even try to hotfix it during 4.16.

Those are severe issues and they couldn't care less, unless the entire community starts shouting at them.

serpensortia11 votes

Not that I'm happy with the Cass rework, it definitely needs to be fixed, but being underpowered is not cause for hotfix.Only Cass players can't enjoy the game the same way. Hotfixes are for overpowered champs that ruin the game for all players encountering them.

Weak champs should really wait for a patch, just to at least be strong enough for people to win with if they really like the current iteration of the champion. Look at Yorick, he's not hopelessly weak. Neither is Poppy. Both are confirmed to need kit changes, but can still be played by true fans in the meantime. Cass fans are probably upset mostly by the rework, but if she was playable, they would be more patient until a new rework came out. Since she's so weak, they have to be vocal about how much they dislike the changes.

Canastus5 votes

You don't get it, do you? She literally was unplayable in 4.16, there's no denying it. Show me one champion who ever had a winrate of 29%, you cannot. That's easily as bad as dealing with an insanely overpowered champion ruining the game, in that case the curve only has been reversed. I'll never forgive them for this.

Chrige7 votes

All the points listed in the original post had been raised by people on the pbe boards and yet Riot ignored them and those issues made it to live anyways.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

The reason why it doesn't catch everything is because the PBE is such a small fraction of the total LoL community that there simply isn't enough people to test every possible scenario to get a complete picture of what is and is not balanced and why uncommon bugs or buggy interactions with underplayed champions slip through.

Then they need to let more players on to the PBE.

GoldenLeSpoink2 votes

The Azir thing, all the bugs were fixed on the pbe; however, in releasing him, more bugs sprouted out...not to mention Azir was delayed as he was initially suppose to come out 2 days after the patch came out however, bugs kept him from coming. The new jungle can be handled by everyone, yeah WW is broken in the jungle; but that is because his OWN kit allows him to do this. I have played Sej in the new jungle and she is perfectly fine. They did take the suggestions of PRESEASON and changed quite a few things; starting with the HP Restoration at the River.

Quepha13 votes

The Azir thing, all the bugs were fixed on the pbe;

that's not even slightly true

GoldenLeSpoink1 votes

This is true, as I was/and still excited about Azir; when he was first released in PBE, he was bugged to no end; after a couple of PBE patches, he was at full speed.

Sinlaire3 votes

This is true, as I was/and still excited about Azir; when he was first released in PBE, he was bugged to no end; after a couple of PBE patches, he was at full speed.

By full speed you mean Riot Patched almost every single on of his abilities for like 3 patches in a row right with over a handful of patches being made to his ult after release right?

GoldenLeSpoink2 votes

You do realize things can go bad when its put through live? It happens to every game and its just unavoidable, they expect us to understand the situation. When Azir was released to release in time of the Shurima Event; they did not expect so many bugs to be reproduce... you also have to keep in mind that he broke a lot of coding as he was not just a "Press dis button to do dis" champ; he is a "Press this to activate this to enable this to happen with this" champ. He is the first champion to be only access one skill at LV 1 and that skill reflects all of his other skills.

Lunnunnunnunnun7 votes

Its entirely avoidable, they didn't test it enough. This isn't a live server load balance issue that's hard to test in isolation, this was day 1 bugs that everyone could reproduce. Come on, this is QA 101

Saianna2 votes

you, sir, deserve an upvote.

Helmight2 votes

I don't have much to add, but I agree with the OP. Riot needs to change how the PBE works and have longer testing cycles before release, ESPECIALLY on new/updated champions.

Knalxz2 votes

As someone who is currently in the PBE I noticed this very early on during the first day. People didn't really want to test and give feedback they just wanted to get the content early.

I try to post my feelings of balance changes here on the forums as much as possible when I see changes to the PBE. I normally only do it for champions I play alot of and and items I use often. Mainly because my opinion on changes between those other variables don't really matter because i don't know what they were like before.

Also you also have ot take into account that all the PBE posts can easily get swept by.

Really, right now one of the top threads is just called

"This is a test post, please ignore"

even if it was something before it's now nothing and still on the front page.

Knalxz2 votes

I've posted several of threads of my feeling towards Rek'Sai and how she will mostly not see jungle play after her initial release. I'm planning on posting recommended builds but I've just been busy over the week, all that nonsense.

DinnerForTwo2 votes

You have to remember that in the case of bugs, PBE and Live are very different environments. Some bugs will only appear on PBE and vice versa.

Quepha3 votes

You have to remember that in the case of bugs, PBE and Live are very different environments. Some bugs will only appear on PBE and vice versa.

many of the bugs i posted about were actually mentioned on the forums before release, many of them are also balance issues that were posted about before release.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

The only arguement I can bring up is that it's preseason so live testing here doesn't hurt that much but yeah, it's really frustrating playing against currently broken champs with buggy ones.

ParinoidPanda4 votes

The OP's concerns transcend the preseason. The issues presented are a staple of the environment as a whole, not any special occasion.

Junkο1 votes

I said this a few weeks ago and got downvoted into obscurity. Make up your mind guys

Quepha3 votes

I said this a few weeks ago and got downvoted into obscurity. Make up your mind guys

git gud

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