PSA : adcs have always done high damage, and items like GA have also always existed.

Rexxiee·Jun 26, 2017·3 votes·1,118 views

Only major difference from adc now and adc 1 year ago when they were trash tier is the support itemization.

didnt exist, and the other support items werent as broken as they are atm, supports can give their adcs 3 health bars and massive sustain + defensive stats (damage reduction with knights vow, armor/mr with windspeakers), etc.

Basically support itemization needs nerfs across the board, but atleast the meta is more enjoyable to play as a bot laner than it was before.

55 Comments

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 201711 votes

adc got scaling mr/lvl for whatever reason with the tank update
adc didnt always have access to big ticket defensive stats on their main offensive items like % damage reduction, mr, armor, or additional shields that make them burst resistant.
adc didnt have access to this much sustain from their own builds alone. the largest amount of lifesteal you used to be able to build was 20% from bloodthirster. now they also have warlords on top of that, and multiple other lifesteal items that fit into a build together.
g.a. didnt use to be an ad item, and whenever you wanted extra defense, you had to dedicate an item slot to it without gaining additional damage.
stats on adc items were directly buffed with the tank update.
defensive itemization wasnt garbage and balanced around 2 or 3 tanks that are meta right now.

look up champion pick and winrates. pretty much all types of champions like divers, juggernauts and most tanks completely crashed and vanished with the update.

the only ones left are a couple support tanks and galio and zac.

no, the situation wasnt always like this.

and this is just the most recent big update.

you can go back and check out the patch notes since the marksman update, how every major update since then just catered to them and buffed their items.

marksmen items already got buffed with the assassin update, while they added delayed burst to assassins, which allowed marksmen to crit burst the assassin in the two seconds they have to wait to finish their rotations.

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

Supports hurt those guys a lot more now. It's sad.

RexxieeJun 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAvx3KPd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-26T15:42:22.292+0000)

adc got scaling mr/lvl for whatever reason

adc didnt have access to big ticket defensive stats on their main offensive items.

adc didnt have access to this much sustain from their own builds alone.

g.a. didnt use to be an ad item, and whenever you wanted extra defense, you had to dedicate an item slot to it without gaining additional damage.

adc items were buffed with the tank update.

defensive itemization wasnt garbage and balanced around 2 or 3 tanks that are meta right now.

look up champion pick and winrates. pretty much all types of champions like divers, juggernauts and most tanks completely crashed and vanished with the update.

no, the situation wasnt always like this.

I dont think you understand.

What makes adcs unkillable isnt a 30 armor GA, its a 1k shield locket, a 900 health redemption, a permanent 12% damage reduction + movespeed on knights vow, the BT levels of sustain on ardent + free attack speed, all of that for free means all adc needs are IE + zeal item and supports can cover everything else.

This is why assassins are garbage right now, because the only viable dps class right now that can deal with that and benefits from that are adcs, and a few melee slayer champs that can abuse DD like fiora or riven, which is also exactly why they havent nerfed DD yet, its kinda a crutch for those champs to stay viable in this meta.

Try playing a game without a support or tank who builds all those broken items, adcs still just die just as fast other than draven stacking lifesteal, but thats a draven problem more than anything else.

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I dont think you understand.

What makes adcs unkillable isnt a 30 armor GA

youre still ignoring the fact that g.a. now comes without a tradeoff and grants ad/armor and its old passive. which means marksmen can build the item earlier without losing in strength, and they dont have to make tradeoffs in damage over safety anymore.

they power spike much sooner and had their damage and defense buffed in every regard.

the support itemization is just part of it, but not the main issue. support itemization can benefit everyone on a team.

but they also buffed marksmen directly in multiple ways for absolutely no reason. and that only benefit them.

RexxieeJun 26, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAvx3KPd,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-06-26T15:51:07.398+0000)

youre still ignoring the fact that g.a. now comes without a tradeoff and grants ad/armor and its old passive. which means marksmen can build the item earlier without losing in strength, and they dont have to make tradeoffs in damage anymore.

they power spike much sooner and had their damage and defense buffed in every regard.

the support itemization is just part of it, but not the main issue. support itemization can benefit everyone on a team.

but they also buffed marksmen directly in multiple ways for absolutely no reason.

"for no reason"

Other than the fact that they were trash tier for over an year recently.

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

"for no reason"

Other than the fact that they were trash tier for over an year recently.

they were not even close to trash tier. they werent even bad when bot lane ziggs was a thing.

the reason why marksmen had trouble farming and scaling their items back then was purely because of the riot enforced 5 man dive bot lane meta. thanks to turret first blood gold almost auto winning games, and op dragons.

riot forced a meta where game times were straight up cut by 10 minutes, and where bot lane constantly got ganked nonstop. this prevented marksmen from being able to scale. it doesnt mean they were anywhere close to weak when they did manage to scale.

RexxieeJun 26, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAvx3KPd,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-26T15:53:48.196+0000)

thy were not even close to trash tier. they werent even bad when bot lane ziggs was a thing.

the reason why marksmen had trouble farming and scaling their items back then was purely because of the riot enforced 5 man dive bot lane meta. thanks to turret first blood and op dragons.

At that time crit was legit trash tier, pretty much every viable adc had a non crit build with either lethality or botrk cleaver, ppl were literally looking or champs that werent adcs to be play bot lane (how ziggs was found) because the role was that bad, if you think that is the adc role being "pretty good" then i'll just laugh, but hey this is how bruiser players wants the adc role, in the trash can.

Only crit adcs that were played was ashe and sivir purely because of their utility kits, the itemization needed the buffs it got, sure the GA change was a bit unnecessary but overall the changes were good, adcs wouldnt be that bad atm if support items werent ridiculously broken.

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

At that time crit was legit trash tier, pretty much every viable adc had a non crit build with either lethality or botrk cleaver.

Only crit adcs that were played was ashe and sivir purely because of their utility kits.

crit wasnt trash.

it was simply that marksmen abused lethality because they got earlier power spikes out of it. just because lethality became the more optimal route didnt make crit builds weaker than before compared to everyone else. it was just a matter of game pacing.

and again. were still at the problem of riot cutting game times by 10 minutes.

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

ppl were literally looking or champs that werent adcs to be play bot lane (how ziggs was found) because the role was that bad

no, ziggs was found because of a gimmick in his kit. hes a mage who can absolutely obliterate turrets by 1 shotting them from 30% health.

in a meta where turret first blood means everything and the bot lane turret is the weakest turret on the map, THATS why he was viable.

the entire meta was focused around winning at 20 minutes while putting massive pressure on the lane with the weakst turret, to snowball off that advantage.

it had shit to do with marksmen themselves.

from there on people experimented with other bot lane picks, that mostly werent successful.

RalanrJun 26, 20178 votes

I wouldn't call that a reason nor would I say they were trash tier. For something to be trash tier, it means they are just wholly unviable and won't be picked in pro.

The only time that has happened is when Ziggs went bot (also Morde, but that was a way different meta and he was broken), and even then ADCs were still viable, but it favored utility ADCs over everyone else.

The ADC class as a whole has never been unviable. Even when the class is "trash" tier as you say, they will still be picked because of how much they are needed.

No other class works like this. Don't you think that's rather ridiculous?

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't call that a reason nor would I say they were trash tier. For something to be trash tier, it means they are just wholly unviable.

like most bruisers right now.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Wouldnt call it ridiculous just because its unique (only "class" thats basically a role).

RalanrJun 26, 20175 votes

Though it means that the class as a whole can never be "unviable".

A marksman can be trash, but marksmen by their design cannot be because they are always needed. That's unhealthy imo.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Hm.. I dont think so because marksmen are pretty diverse anyway. Theres low-range casters like Lucian that are nothing like high ranged poke casters like Corki/Ezreal or "assassins" like Twitch, aoe casters like MF, utility adcs like Ashe/Sivir and so on.

RalanrJun 26, 20174 votes

So "diverse" that Riot can't even make them into subclasses (when they clearly can).
You're just proving me right. A Marksman can be good or bad depending on the meta. They can be viable or troll picks. Marksmen however by design as a whole cannot be unviable. Which is a problem.

They are not the only consistent damage dealers. They just do it from range.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Well imo thats kinda like saying "melee fighters/skirmishers/tanks and maybe even ad assassins are all the same class and they are never all unviable at the same time".

RalanrJun 26, 20174 votes

How? Because they're melee?

An assassin and a tank provide different things to a team. ADCs all pretty much provide a consistent damage output and their viability is based on which adc has the best numbers (or who functions better with a lack of numbers).

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Yes. Sivir provides a team-wide speed boost and good wave clear, Jhin provides long range follow up cc and a high range slowing ult, MF provides high aoe damage, Corki provides magic damage for an AD heavy team, Ashe provides global instant-kills, Ezreal provides safe poke from high range, Kog Maw provides high late game dbps,...

RalanrJun 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Yes. Sivir provides a team-wide speed boost and good wave clear, Jhin provides long range follow up cc and a high range slowing ult, MF provides high aoe damage, Corki provides magic damage for an AD heavy team, Ashe provides global instant-kills, Ezreal provides safe poke from high range, Kog Maw provides high late game dbps,...

And again, you will always see at least one of them in a game because they all provide consistent ranged dps. Despite how diverse the class is, it doesn't feel diverse because it has no one else to actually compete with for viability beyond themselves.

Mid is a constant struggle between mages and assassins. Top is tanks, bruisers, and even some assassins or mages competing for viability. Jungle is basically everyone but mages and most ADCs, and supports have to swap between tank, mage, or regular supports.

Every other role is competing with different classes for viability.

ADCs do not. That's why they as a whole can never be trash because they are no competition to make them trash by design.

TLDR: ADC is communism to the capitalism of every other role.

IcyPepperJun 26, 20171 votes

Wouldn't ADC be socialism because the support role gives all the gold to them?

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't ADC be socialism because the support role gives all the gold to them?

I guess? Idk.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Thats what my first post was about, its unique in that way, but I wouldnt call it a problem just because of that.

I mean I see the point but lets just say theres "Pokers" Ezreal Corki kind of Caitlyn , "Casters" Lucian Ezreal Xayah MissFortune Jhin , "Hyper carries" KogMaw Jinx Vayne Twitch Tristana , "Utility... something" Ashe Sivir also Jhin And suddenly theres a lot of diverse "classes" bot. ez

RalanrJun 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thats what my first post was about, its unique in that way, but I wouldnt call it a problem just because of that.

I mean I see the point but lets just say theres "Pokers" kind of , "Casters" , "Hyper carries" , "Utility... something" also And suddenly theres a lot of diverse quotes;classes" bot. ez

No. That would still be just marksmen.

Marksmen vs Marksmen in bot lane viability is nothing like tank vs fighter or mage vs assassin.

It's not the subclasses. It's the base class.

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well then the same goes for supports since enchanters, catchers and whatever Braum or Tahm are.. guess Vanguards or something are all just supports too. Tho you can call those "mages" and tanks.. so.. idk xd I just think the role is fine, there is diversity even if its all just ranged AD champs.

Penns, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

I'm not talking subclasses. I'm talking base classes. No other base class competes with the marksmen class in the bot lane. Even the support class competes with some Wardens and vanguards!

PermabannedGarenJun 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thats what my first post was about, its unique in that way, but I wouldnt call it a problem just because of that.

I mean I see the point but lets just say theres "Pokers" kind of , "Casters" , "Hyper carries" , "Utility... something" also And suddenly theres a lot of diverse "classes" bot. ez

Every single one of those champions are alike in that they provide consistent, relatively safe late game scaling DPS to shred front lines and carry their teams.

There are differences between individual marksmen, but they aren't nearly the same difference between a hard splitpushing skirmisher like Tryndamere or a utility tank like Maokai.

What those two champions provide for a team is fundamentally different.

All ADCs plant themselves in the back line and provide consistent DPS to whatever enemy they can safely target in range.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Yeah but why is that a problem just because other roles arent the same?

Maybe not all adcs will be unviable at the same time, which shouldnt happen anyway, to any class, but the difference between like a Darius/Hecarim/Garen and a Jax or the difference between Yorick and Trynda/Yi/Fiora is just as small as the difference between Jhin and Caitlyn, probably even smaller.

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but why is that a problem just because other roles arent the same?

Maybe not all adcs will be unviable at the same time, which shouldnt happen anyway, to any class, but the difference between like a Darius/Hecarim/Garen and a Jax or the difference between Yorick and Trynda/Yi/Fiora is just as small as the difference between Jhin and Caitlyn.

Consistency. That and it only makes it further look like Riot favors ADCs over other classes imo.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

So, again, why does unique = problem? What do you want to see? Azir and co going bot? Or even melee champs? Cause thats probably not gonna work very well without big changes that arent worth doing and balancing imo.

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So, again, why does unique = problem? What do you want to see? Azir and co going bot? Or even melee champs? Cause thats probably not gonna work very well without big changes that arent worth doing and balancing imo.

I do actually, yes.

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

I dont think they really favor adcs. Sure theyre broken rn but thats like 70% because of supports. And its not like they havent tried but last time they designed a melee as bot laner it uh.. didnt turn out very well lul.

AhristocatsJun 26, 20171 votes

you're again trying to argue about something that you're wrong since the begining

respect for that sir, you never change

the dude is saying that no matter how trash marksmen are they will still be picked, and you still argue against it, it's like you're living on an other planet

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

Im arguing that it doesnt matter and adcs are diverse enough. Its called an opinion and opinions cant be "wrong".

Yassuo qs as adc and goes Yas adc in high master-challenger against players like Doublelift. You go Darius adc and it works, Ziggs adc still works... Adcs arent "needed" anyway unless you play in lcs and even there Ziggs adc works/worked.

makkiiJun 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Im arguing that it doesnt matter and adcs are diverse enough. Its called an opinion and opinions cant be "wrong".

Yassuo qs as adc and goes Yas adc in high master-challenger against players like Doublelift. You go Darius adc and it works, Ziggs adc still works... Adcs arent "needed" anyway unless you play in lcs and even there Ziggs adc works/worked.

These are anomolies, broad range meta has always required at least one adc, this has not changed.

The reason i compared a role to subclasses is because subclasses are determined by what that champion provides to the team, with adc's barring a few exceptions, like kogmaw, they all functionally bring the same thing to a team.

For example, a raka(heals) though she is a support, at a base level does not bring the same thing to the team as say a blitz, or thresh(cc/utility) an ashe (ranged scaling ad) however at a base level does indeed bring the same function to a team as a jinx or caitlyn.

When you look at it that way, you should think critically and ask yourself, why is this group always there, always a staple, whereas all other groups have an ebb and flow in terms of relevance.

Which is why i say again adc's have never been garbage, ok at worst, if they ever had, they would not be required, they would have been swapped out.

The reason people stick adc's bot with support is traditionally adc's had bad base damages and limited kits in terms of utility and(in oldschool) mobility, in favor of scaling, if ADC had ever been "garbage" as yall say, to include their role in the lategame, they would have been swapped out for a more favorable team build, particularly with more midgame potential.

Examples would have been things like double bully lane bot, or even possibly 3 solo lanes with a conventional jungler and dedicated invade/subversion jungler.

If you honestly think a role can stay a staple for 7 freaking years, even when they are "garbage" theres no hope for you

PennsJun 26, 20171 votes

They dont bring the same thing to a team. Sure they all bring damage, so do mages yet they arent all the same.

Theres battle mages, poke mages and burst mages just like theres utility adcs, caster adcs, poke adcs and so on. Marksmen have subclasses, its not my fault Riot named them for mages and not for adcs xd

Adcs WERE "garbage", last time it was when "adc in 2k16" became a thing. Doesnt matter if people still played them, they were in a shitty spot.

Maybe there just wasnt enough time to adapt and people wouldve developed a new bot lane meta if Riot changed nothing for ~a year, we dunno.

See, even you call them "role" instead of "class" because thats what they are. Thats how the game is designed at this point. And I still havent heard a reason why thats bad other than "diversity", which is just an opinion.

makkiiJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They dont bring the same thing to a team. Sure they all bring damage, so do mages yet they arent all the same.

Theres battle mages, poke mages and burst mages just like theres utility adcs, caster adcs, poke adcs and so on. Marksmen have subclasses, its not my fault Riot named them for mages and not for adcs xd

Adcs WERE "garbage", last time it was when "adc in 2k16" became a thing. Doesnt matter if people still played them, they were in a shitty spot.

Maybe there just wasnt enough time to adapt and people wouldve developed a new bot lane meta if Riot changed nothing for ~a year, we dunno.

See, even you call them "role" instead of "class" because thats what they are. Thats how the game is designed at this point. And I still havent heard a reason why thats bad other than "diversity", which is just an opinion.

You arent listening, im not saying all adc do the exact same thing,

What im saying is that all adc's are brought for the same base level function, scaling ranged dps which is their defining feature above all else, which is why im comparing adc as a role to other subclasses.

if people were putting that much emphasis on the other functionalities of said subclasses of adc's than why wouldnt they take other champions who perform that function better? If you want ranged poke why not stick velkoz bot? If you just want hyperscaling single target why not tryndamere? If you want a mobile fighter why not riven?

Are roles and subclasses different? Yes HOWEVER Roles/subclasses are put in places and rise and fall in popularity based on what core functionality they bring to a team, let us be clear, the CORE reason why adc's are always around, periphery reasons aside is scaling ranged single target damage per second, thats why you can compare adc's as a ROLE to other subclasses.

If you switch the meta in toplsne from a tanky ad bruiser like darius to say an adc like quinn, the dynamic that provides relative to your team changes drastically.

Now If you change the botlane meta from say caitlyn to draven, im not saying the teams not different, but the core dynamic of that pick relative to your team does not change, it still provides the same BASE emphasis on BASE function.

With that in mind, you need to ask yourself, why do marksmen ALWAYS have a presence in the game?

PennsJun 27, 20171 votes

Velkoz because he doesnt have the late game dps that crit has nor the damage to towers, Trynda/Riven because they are melee. And, like I said, maybe we would have done that regardless if Riot didnt buff adcs.

I mean I agree that they are similar and the differences between them arent as big as the ones between Darius and Rumble top, but its certainly not that way because they are/always were "overpowered". Its just how the game works and how its designed. This is a team based objective game, adcs are the best champs to siege and destroy objectives from range.

makkiiJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Velkoz because he doesnt have the late game dps that crit has nor the damage to towers, Trynda/Riven because they are melee. And, like I said, maybe we would have done that regardless if Riot didnt buff adcs.

So if we consolodate those reasons, "not ranged late game damage per second"

Huh, i coulda sworn i sai...OH WAIT

How are you not getting this?

PennsJun 27, 20171 votes

How are you not getting this?

I mean I agree that they are similar and the differences between them arent as big as the ones between Darius and Rumble top

? My question is still why this is bad? The game is designed around having ranged dps to objectives and champs from adcs mid-late game, alright,... now.. why is that a bad thing? Its not like they are always as op as they are now just because they are "required".

KuroCaliberJun 26, 20171 votes

You did not do your math.. At all.

1). In order to get a 1k locket shield, at lvl 18 since it scales by level, you need 1572 bonus health. You get 1400 with fotm, Ruby ss, knights vow, and you can crack the 1572 if your last item is redemption. But that is at level 18. Only at 18 and a full health based build can you make a shield that big without stone plate.

if you built health for locket active, your only heal increase is from redemption. +30% which results in a 481 health heal at level 18.
move speed is only for the support, not the ADC.
censer gives 35% attack speed for 6 seconds after every heal or shield. At level 18. It can be as low as 25% attack speed. Also 35 life on hit only equals bt sustain if you have 175 ad. ADC gets 200 ad just from building ie, bt/dd, and ldr. Also no one would build it with a locket build, the two scale off of different stats. Locket with health and redemption with heal/shield modifier.

5). Let's say for an instance that you build a full heal/Shield's build. You get a 925 heal at lvl 18 if you build censer mikhaels, redemption and take wind speakers blessing.

you may wonder why I keep saying lvl 18. This is because at level 18, every champ has full build. Spells do around 700 dmg apiece. A locket activation saves you from 1.5 spells tops. Redemption even less. It won't even save you fully from an ADC CRIT as an ADC. This is even before factoring things like armor pen, base stats, and outside buffs like Baron or dragon. So your argument is incorrect.
you mentioned assassins having a hard time kills ADCs through those items,. You provided lvl 18 stats. At that point you can not kill them in their team. If there support is there, you will have to wait for a good opportunity, instead of trying to blitz then before a fight starts whole the whole team is there. You spend the entirety of the game till then killing them. Late game is their turn.

makkiiJun 27, 20174 votes

Ok lemme put it this way, subgroups like poke mage vs aoe mage for example aside if we are talking about a basic "class" but not role, do "mages" exist in every meta? Or do people sometimes forgo them? How about full tanks? Does the meta always have them? How about healers? Cc/utility bots? How about bruisers? The answer to all of these is no.

Now ask yourself the same for marksman

ProtestantCaesarJun 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

adc

trash tier

I'm not sure what you're talking about. ADCs have never been trash tier. The closest ADCs have ever been to being trash tier was Season 5 Worlds when Mordekaiser was one-shotting them all, and that wasn't even ADCs being bad - that was one ridiculously overtuned duo-juggernaut monstrosity competing with them in the bottom lane.

didnt exist, and the other support items werent as broken as they are atm, supports can give their adcs 3 health bars and massive sustain + defensive stats (damage reduction with knights vow, armor/mr with windspeakers), etc.

Locket has existed for years. In recent times it has had its magic resistance aura removed (a nerf) and its shield was just this patch given a health scaling component to make it more attractive to tanks. Sure, it's different to how it was last year, but it existed last year. (And before Redemption, everyone was complaining about how the magic resistance aura on Locket, being nearly mandatory for the support to buy so that the ADC never has to buy a defensive item to not be one-shot by mages, was killing support item diversity. Now look how far we've come!)

RexxieeJun 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. ADCs have never been trash tier. The closest ADCs have ever been to being trash tier was Season 5 Worlds when Mordekaiser was one-shotting them all, and that wasn't even ADCs being bad - that was one ridiculously overtuned duo-juggernaut monstrosity competing with them in the bottom lane.

Locket has existed for years. In recent times it has had its magic resistance aura removed (a nerf) and its shield was just this patch given a health scaling component to make it more attractive to tanks. Sure, it's different to how it was last year, but it existed last year. (And before Redemption, everyone was complaining about how the magic resistance aura on Locket, being nearly mandatory for the support to buy so that the ADC never has to buy a defensive item to not be one-shot by mages, was killing support item diversity. Now look how far we've come!)

old locket was basically a 200~300 shield at most, current locket is a 1k+ shield item late game.

Old locket was actually more healthy.

And if you cant remember like 6 months ago on how adcs were garbage then you have bad memory problems, back when ppl were just picking ashe/sivir for the utility as they could atleast press their ults and be useful before getting 1 shotted by everything in the game.

ProtestantCaesarJun 26, 20173 votes

My memory is not that bad. I remember a lot of ADCs complaining about how weak they were.

I also remember ADCs still being mandatory on every team. Their damage was still that good. (It has been at least since the Marksman Class Update, which I believe was when every Zeal item was given 30% crit.) At least, they were mandatory on every team until Ziggs was discovered. Then only half of all teams needed an ADC. They must have been trash tier.

makkiiJun 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

old locket was basically a 200~300 shield at most, current locket is a 1k+ shield item late game.

Old locket was actually more healthy.

And if you cant remember like 6 months ago on how adcs were garbage then you have bad memory problems, back when ppl were just picking ashe/sivir for the utility as they could atleast press their ults and be useful before getting 1 shotted by everything in the game.

If adc's were so garbage than why has it been the only non-interchangeable class of champion since season 1? Support role has seen rotations between mages, cc bots like blitz, heal bots, and full tanks, mid has seen adc's, assasins, mages, and tanky ap's, junglers have had ad casters, tanky ap, utility tanks, adc's, top has seen ad casters, adc's, tanky ad, and tanky ap.

1 thing has NEVER changed 99% of teams have AT LEAST one adc since s1, am i saying that makes adc's always op? No, but theyve never been "bad" if they were, the meta coulda rotated them out of bot lane completely at some point, but they havent.

also its important to note, support itemization aside, that tank itemization is terrible right now, so adc's are just shredding front lines like they built no defense, which is part of the reason they are so strong right now.

AhristocatsJun 26, 20171 votes

they're trash, completly trash at the game they can't understand the game

and they know they are wrong, so they try to manipulate you on "lol marksmen have subclasses too" "lol it's not a bad thing that marksmen are always needed"

LethalTempo JhinJun 26, 20171 votes

Talking from a competitive standpoint right now:

The closest ADCs have ever been to being trash tier was Season 5 Worlds

S7 Spring split? Where pretty much everyone was playing Ashe Varus Jhin , if that was picked/banned, Ezreal Caitlyn ?

Being a CC bot was all you were worth for and botlane was not really about outplaying enemy, but getting a first towerdive to make the enemy AD more worthless. Jungle was stupidly strong (, top lane tanks were doing ridiculous damage

I would say that S7 spring was a time when playing AD was legit miserable experience.

RalanrJun 26, 20172 votes

But not miserable enough to just replace the ADC with someone else entirely.

Though if it was blind, then both teams would probably have Ziggs.

RalanrJun 26, 20171 votes

Also that GA was a full resistance item which made it a less desired purchase.

You're not wrong that support items are overtunned right now. But let's not ignore the sustain buffs through DD and the change to GA that made it much more popular for ADCs.

RexxieeJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Also that GA was a full resistance item which made it a less desired purchase.

You're not wrong that support items are overtunned right now. But let's not ignore the sustain buffs through DD and the change to GA that made it much more popular for ADCs.

DD is legit only bought by a single adc, and Draven cant do the exact same thing he does with it with BT, its a draven problem rather than a item problem.

GA was more situational but it actually made the adc tankier than the current one, twice as much armor + 30 mr, this is actually better in certain games where you'd need the extra survivability and you already had the damage.

MohawkBirdJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Also that GA was a full resistance item which made it a less desired purchase.

You're not wrong that support items are overtunned right now. But let's not ignore the sustain buffs through DD and the change to GA that made it much more popular for ADCs.

Honestly the full resistance made it a more desired purchase for me. I'd rather have the MR back than have 40 extra AD.