Zoe needs adjustments, again.

Fasmodey·May 24, 2018·5 votes·2,029 views

She deals ridiculous amount of damage with her passive and W damage.

Pasif deals 12-135 + 32.5% of AP for per AA. It is like fucking what?

W deals 75 + 75% of AP, after every item and summoner spell... It means it is even more when you cast at least 2 spells in a row.

I died, no joke, I died only to her passive and W damage, from 100. Dodged every spell and still died.

She needs adjustment for her spells. There is a reason why pros started to player her again and are rushing Lich Bane. She is like s3 Ahri, braindead champion that kill you with undodgeable damage plus dodgelable stupid damage.

I'm saying that with someone who plays Zoe. Just adjustment her, if nerfs are not necessary. It is frustrating and not fun to play against.

34 Comments

Pika FoxMay 24, 20183 votes

No. She didnt even need adjustments on release. Seriously, can we just learn to play against a champion with clear and massive weaknesses instead of crying "op ner nao", or am i the only support main who decides to block Q after im given 3 seconds heads up that my carry is about to die from E?

FasmodeyMay 24, 20183 votes

And can you stop being blind and deaf? There is a reason why she was highly picked in MSI. A champion with massives weaknesses wouldn't be played that much in this level.

She can deal high damage, I don't care, unless she hits something. I really hate how oppresive she can be with Aery + passive and W in early levels.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20182 votes

And in all the games she was picked and played, she didnt do anything any other assassin would have done. Hell, in the game that infamous ezreal clip was from she did nothing all lane and the champion who decided the entire game was ornn.

FasmodeyMay 24, 20182 votes

she didnt do anything any other assassin would have done.

Problem is, assassins are not even viable in competitive. She does her job better than assassins. She kills from safe range with only one spell hit. And can poke a squishy to base with only 1 hit. Not even Xerath can do that.

If Zed was picked as much as her, he would be nerfed to oblivion.

I should remind you, I'M NOT EVEN COMPLAINING ABOUT HER COMPLETE DAMAGE.

I'M NOT BEGGING FOR NERFS.

Just adjust her stupid undodgeable damage that you gave her with mini rework.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Her damage is dodgeable, it just requires actual coordinated play. Her E allows her to actually land Q and is a major power boost, but signals her target for nearly 3 seconds. All you need to do to make her useless is have your support walk in front of that Q. Just like cait ult. Then GG she loses the teamfight.

Also assassins are viable in pro play, kha is a popular pick.

BlackEyesBlueMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just adjust her stupid undodgeable damage that you gave her with mini rework.

Get out.

FasmodeyMay 24, 20182 votes

Why am I not suprised you are a bronze 2 Zoe main?

BlackEyesBlueMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why am I not suprised you are a bronze 2 Zoe main?

At least I know how to play against her... And for the record my main is Poppy.

FasmodeyMay 24, 20182 votes

You don't know how to play against a single champion. You don't even know how to play.

nm1010May 24, 20183 votes

She didnt even need adjustments on release

You pretty much lose all credibility right there, she had a skill that could one shot squishies at 2--2.5 items AND you only had ~.25 seconds to react as it flew in from FoW. At least now the timing on r makes it so you can see her for a bit before you die xD

Seriously, can we just learn to play against a champion with clear and massive weaknesses

I'm curious as to what weakness you are referring to? Outside of counterpicking her (which is very difficult to do seeing as her worst counter wins ~2% more often than an average pick) you don't have much you can do in lane against a high level Zoe. Pick an all in champion? She has a better all in than 95% of the roster once she has w. Pick a poke champion? She has rng sustain and great wave clear to base when needed. Pick a battlemage? She has high enough consistent damage with passive to win trade and can shove them under tower with her wave clear.

Now that doesn't mean she is capable of roflstomping mid, it just means that you pretty much ALWAYS have to pick something with wave clear and that scales well. The problem with this however is that Zoe is ALSO one of the best scaling mid laners (she pushes a 55%+ WR at 2 items and a 63%+ at 3 items). That is the problem with Zoe, she is a catch-22 champion. Try to win lane? She out lanes you. Try to out scale? She probably out scales you.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Her W requires her to CS which can be punished and is telegraphed when she goes for the item.

Her E is the single weakest hard CC in the game, giving you nearly 3 seconds before it procs to engage (her damage is based on distance so if youre ontop of her, it will either cause her to panic and miss her Q or do less damage), get to safety or have literally anyone bodyblock the obvious skillshot.

She has no inbuilt mobility, so engaging on her will kill her.

nm1010May 24, 20181 votes

Her W requires her to CS which can be punished

Assuming she doesn't out push most champions, assuming she can't play around being punished when going for cs like every other champion, assuming that her opponent is playing a range champion. Do you see flaws in that argument?

Her E is the single weakest hard CC in the game

Did I say shit about her e? Didn't think so, back on topic please (if you need a refresher we are talking about her laning phase being nearly unpunishable while also scaling absurdly well).

damage is based on distance so if youre ontop of her

Too bad she has a lich bane built in with no internal cd and w damage + movespeed to kite you while still doing above average damage.

it will either cause her to panic and miss her Q

Assuming people suck =/= counterplay.

get to safety or have literally anyone bodyblock the obvious skillshot.

Wow I sure hope I just have somebody in range at all times to body block for me, especially in laning phase. In case you missed it she does

500 + 150% ap with a maxed out q at level 18
600 + 160% ap with a maxed out q at level 18 with luden's
935 + 240.5% ap with a maxed out q at level 18 with luden's and lich bane

Let's say she has 600 ap, that is a 2377 damage burst combo coming in. God forbid she hits someone with an e or has a more realistic amount of ap at full build.

She has no inbuilt mobility, so engaging on her will kill her.

xD 340 base ms and a minimum 30% ms boost when using w. The best (and only real "strategic" option) is to pick a point and click instant cc so that you can have your jungle camp the shit out of her. (Or hope she sucks, which as I said above is still not counterplay)

Here is a perfect example of the strength of her laning phase

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDU3YhLmebM

60 damage q hit, the rest of it is literally passive + 80 damage redemption + w + runes.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Most mids are ranged or have ranged abilities (or are supposed to be weak til 6 with other advantages, aka zed)

No, its not assuming people suck. Zoe has only a fraction of a second to get her combo off with no inbuilt mobility to deal with engages. Her Q is extremely thin and easy to miss, add in being suddenly engaged on and people, even pros, can fuck up the slight adjustments needed to deal with it. Sure, the better the player the less likely, but they still will, and ypure taking reduced damage even if they do hit.

Laning phase her damage isnt that great. Even if she lands erq you wont go 100-0. The biggest threat is mid-late game against squishies who arent topped off getting caught out, who should always be with someone else. Shes an assassin, if youre alone and not a tank she should kill you. Its her one job.

Movespeed isnt mobility. How many people run ghost over flash? (Besides me, because i have a vendetta against flash)

nm1010May 24, 20181 votes

Most mids are ranged or have ranged abilities (or are supposed to be weak til 6 with other advantages, aka zed)

The point being that not everyone can punish her off of w (I would even say most people can't).

No, its not assuming people suck. Zoe has only a fraction of a second to get her combo off with no inbuilt mobility to deal with engages.

Your argument is literally "pressure her and maybe she will miss her abilities" aka the player makes a mistake. So you are arguing that a champion should be balanced around people making mistakes instead of having proper counterplay. Not that it really matters, she doesn't need q in many skirmishes.

Her Q is extremely thin and easy to miss

Her q is around standard projectile size AND is faster than standard, please check your bias at the door.

Sure, the better the player the less likely, but they still will, and ypure taking reduced damage even if they do hit.

That's great that I'm taking ~20% less damage, it will make me feel like I made a great play while I'm dying to her autos and w. Did you even watch the video I posted XD

Laning phase her damage isnt that great.

It is DEFINITELY strong as you can see in the video I posted, even if we disregard her damage she still has great waveclear and safety.

Shes an assassin

She is a BURST MAGE with very high base hp (for a mage), low cool downs, good consistent damage, and plenty of utility. Assassins by Riot's definition

Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage.

Movespeed isnt mobility. How many people run ghost over flash? (Besides me, because i have a vendetta against flash)

Moving faster makes it harder to punish you because you are exposed for less time and it allows her to kite exceptionally well. Just because one summoner is significantly better than another doesn't mean both don't give mobility. If ghost hadn't been nerfed midlaners would still probably take it (some still do).

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Her Q most certainly is not "standard projectile size". Its one of the thinnest in the game, unless it was buffed post nerf.

Youre taking around 50% less damage. And if you live, youre ontop of her. Meaning shes dead. If she cant 100-0, if you even have 1hp left, she loses. Thats how assassins work.

Her damage in lane is pitiful. A smart player wont let her land e because its too big and slow, and minions block it while Q alone doesnt do much damage until maxed, which is the end of laning phase.

Shes an assassin. Shes not a burst mage. Her playstyle fits that of the assassin. Dont know where you people get "burst mage" from. Next youre gunna tell me leblanc is a burst mage.

Ghost was nerfed only after it was buffed for yeeaaarrrs and then super buffed to the point where it was intentionally overpowered, and people STILL took flash over it. Movement speed is not mobility. Movement speed will not and can not save you if you dont have the EHP to back it up.

nm1010May 24, 20182 votes

Her Q most certainly is not "standard projectile size". Its one of the thinnest in the game, unless it was buffed post nerf.

Her Q is standard, just look at how generous it is

https://i.gyazo.com/61b8430c4b0fe3b879633ab5f1ff9712.png

https://i.gyazo.com/230682ee5d4bb289a1fb5c03bb80ec21.png

Youre taking around 50% less damage.

Well the difference from a max range q (roughly 1400 range I think) and a minimum damage q is 60% so I doubt the difference of 600ish range and melee range is 50%. I would like it if you didn't make things up, thanks.

And if you live, youre ontop of her. Meaning shes dead. If she cant 100-0, if you even have 1hp left, she loses. Thats how assassins work.

In what fucking fairy tale does most of the roster

a) have the movespeed to stay on top of her

b) magically win because they got on her, I've already said she has high hp. I doubt most people can win all ins even if she misses every skill shot as long as she kites fine.

Her damage in lane is pitiful. A smart player wont let her land e because its too big and slow, and minions block it while Q alone doesnt do much damage until maxed, which is the end of laning phase.

Again, I GAVE YOU A VIDEO OF HER ALL INNING A ZED AT LEVEL 2. She does NOT lack damage.

Shes an assassin. Shes not a burst mage. Her playstyle fits that of the assassin.

Really? She "fits the assassin playstyle"?

"Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

This is the definition of an assassin. The first fucking sentence, how does she "infiltrate the enemy lines with [her] unrivaled mobility"? How does she "put [herself] into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets" when her q is 800 range bare minimum?

Next youre gunna tell me leblanc is a burst mage.

According to Riot she was a hybrid burst mage/assassin/kite mage before the revert, given that she has to almost GET INTO MELEE RANGE WITH HER IMMENSE MOBILITY again I would say she is more assassin now.

Ghost was nerfed only after it was buffed for yeeaaarrrs

You are literally making things up now.

V7.2 NEW EFFECT: Movement speed now ramps up over the first two seconds, rather than activating instantly. V6.10 Cooldown reduced to 180 seconds from 210. Movement speed increased to 28% - 45% (based on level) from 27% at all levels. V4.4 New sounds. V4.2 New particles. V4.1 Icon updated V1.0.0.129 Now improved in the Offense Mastery tree instead of Utility. Improved Ghost increases movement speed bonus to 35%.

The only reason people stopped taking it mid every game was because of the delay they added. It was ENTIRELY taken as a mobility spell and is STILL taken situationally as a mobility spell mid lane.

Movement speed is not mobility. Movement speed will not and can not save you if you don't have the EHP to back it up.

Yes movement speed is mobility by definition, that is not arguable. It may be less mobility than say LeBlanc, but it is still mobility she has in her kit. AND WHY ARE YOU RANDOMLY BRINGING EHP INTO THIS.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Your post doesnt signify how large or small the projectile is or isnt. Its rather thin.

You just admitted her damage boost was up to 60%. So sorry, i was wrong, its a 60% reduction.

Shes an assassin. She targets someone with E then bursts them down with rq. Same playpattern of an assassin. Her infiltration is her r, but since shes a mage assassin she loses her true mobility for having hard CC.

You forgot to include the myriad of buffs prior. Ghost was buffed slowly over the years then got super buffed before that nerf.

We arw bringing EHP into this because movement speed does absolutely nothing to save you if youll die before youre out of dash/blink/flash/auto/spell range. Who has a better chance of surviving a xin with e and flash up who is in melee range; kog with ghost or malphite with ghost? Even assuming no ghost ramp up time.

Youre going to be CCd, then dashed to, slowed, CCd again. Your only hope is flashing to safety. Movespeed does nothing for you if you dont have something for it.

nm1010May 24, 20181 votes

Your post doesnt signify how large or small the projectile is or isnt. Its rather thin.

Well roughly estimating I would say that is about 2 teemos, so a 100 unit radius. Most projectiles are right around that. Morgana is one of the largest projectiles and I believe her q radius is 150 units.

You just admitted her damage boost was up to 60%. So sorry, i was wrong, its a 60% reduction.

Yes... that is the difference between 1400+ range and literally on top of her range. So we can figure out that the difference in a 600 range q in lane and a melee q in lane is probably not 50% as you claimed.

Shes an assassin. She targets someone with E then bursts them down with rq. Same playpattern of an assassin. Her infiltration is her r, but since shes a mage assassin she loses her true mobility for having hard CC.

Your arguments are turning into a shit show.

Same playpattern of an assassin

Have you ever even played an assassin? Because as someone with thousands of games on assassins I am actually stunned at your lack of ability to differentiate a burst mage and assassin.

You forgot to include the myriad of buffs prior. Ghost was buffed slowly over the years then got super buffed before that nerf.

That is literally the patch log from s1 to season 8, you are making things up. Address my points completely or I will consider my argument done. I am tired of smacking your flimsy arguments around.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Was at work, glossed over

V6.10 Cooldown reduced to 180 seconds from 210. Movement speed increased to 28% - 45% (based on level) from 27% at all levels.

Thought you just posted the one change.

And again, this was the massive buff, and it was slowly buffed prior (theres more buffs than what you listed, the scrollbar continues down)

V1.0.0.129 Now improved in the Offense Mastery tree instead of Utility. Improved Ghost increases movement speed bonus to 35%. V1.0.0.112 Ghost Ghost duration decreased to 10 from 14. V1.0.0.101 Ghost Ghost movement speed increase reduced to 27% from 32%. Haste (mastery) movement speed bonus reduced to 6% from 8%. V1.0.0.97 Ghost Ghost can now be used without breaking stealth. V0.8.22.115 Movement speed bonus increased to 32% from 28%. Duration increase to 14 seconds from 12 seconds. July 10, 2009 Patch Duration reduced to 15 from 30 sec. June 26, 2009 Patch Haste mastery 2011.png Haste: Increases the movement speed bonus of Ghost Ghost by 8%, and increases the duration by 1.5 seconds. May 9, 2009 Patch Cooldown increased to 210 seconds from 180 seconds. May 1, 2009 Patch Reduced Ghost Ghost mastery bonus to +8% from +10%. Duration reduced to 12 seconds from 15 seconds. April 18, 2009 Patch Duration reduced to 15 seconds from 25 seconds. Movement speed bonus increased 28% from 22%. Added a buff texture. April 11, 2009 Patch Movement speed bonus increased to 22% from 15%. Alpha Week 6 Movement speed bonus decreased to 15% from 20%. Alpha Week 5 Ghost Ghost duration increased to 25 seconds from 15 seconds and tooltip now properly reflects the 20% movement speed bonus. Alpha Week 4 Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes from 6 minutes. Movement Speed increased to 20% from 10%. Alpha Week 3 Summoner Haste name changed to Summoner Ghost Ghost, and now allows you to walk through units

If youre talking about Q alone without E or R, its going to do negligable damage regardless of distance, so it not being a full 60% reduction is rather meaningless.

Clearly you dont know what a burst mage is either, as they kill targets far faster than Zoe can. Zoe gets limited "mobility" off her R that allows her to engage a target at the cost of good hard CC (sleep is the weakest hard CC in the game) and a forced delay on kill potential unless you can land a thin, unwieldy, complex skillshot that takes time to setup.

nm1010May 25, 20181 votes

I was going to stay away because you clearly don't want a discussion, but did you honestly just list ghost changes from alpha + beta... Of the changes in the actual release version of the game you have

V1.0.0.129 Now improved in the Offense Mastery tree instead of Utility. Improved Ghost increases movement speed bonus to 35%. V1.0.0.112 Ghost Ghost duration decreased to 10 from 14. V1.0.0.101 Ghost Ghost movement speed increase reduced to 27% from 32%. Haste (mastery) movement speed bonus reduced to 6% from 8%. V1.0.0.97 Ghost Ghost can now be used without breaking stealth.

Tell me which of those was a buff (other than "can be used without breaking stealth").

If youre talking about Q alone without E or R, its going to do negligable damage regardless of distance

600 + 160% ap with a maxed out q at level 18 with luden's, more than a 5 ball Syndra ult at 600 ap. With none of the prep time... and from almost 3 times the distance.

Clearly you dont know what a burst mage is either, as they kill targets far faster than Zoe can.

I literally have 5k+ games mid lane over the course of 6 years. I have played EVERY mid lane champion at least 10 games and have wins in multiple games with pros + challengers alike. What are your qualifications again? I mean you do have some reason for thinking you know her class better than both THE DESIGNER OF THE CHAMPION and me right?

Pika FoxMay 25, 20181 votes

Most of those were actually targetted at the mastery changes (the setup we had prior to the new runes now) iirc, so most of the "nerfs" actually ended up being buffs overall.

Again, without E or R. It doesnt have "three times the distance" or that much damage without either. And if she used 2-3 abilities, id HOPE she could do more damage than syndra R.

What burst mage needs to wait 2-3 seconds before they can even attempt to kill their target? Other than your claim of Zoe.

nm1010May 25, 20181 votes

Most of those were actually targetted at the mastery changes (the setup we had prior to the new runes now) iirc, so most of the "nerfs" actually ended up being buffs overall.

No the nerfs did not end up being buffs. They reduced the duration and movement speed of regular ghost and only buffed enhanced ghost.

Again, without E or R. It doesnt have "three times the distance" or that much damage without either.

She can easily reach the 1375 range to get the same damage as the distance gained with R with just running forward (cast q 800 units backwards, run 575 forward). I was mistaken about 1400 being the max distance however so we should probably assume she does use R.

And if she used 2-3 abilities, id HOPE she could do more damage than syndra R.

A 5 ball Syndra R uses at least 3 abilities and 2 seconds of prep time. This is similar to or more than Zoe.

What burst mage needs to wait 2-3 seconds before they can even attempt to kill their target? Other than your claim of Zoe.

Zoe still has videos of her one shotting people without any delay...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTZs-SD8Vso

That took my all of two minutes to find, I know synapse had a pure q only one shot a few days ago but I'm not watching an hour of content to find it. If you want to argue setting up "ideal combos" instead of just being able to threaten anyone below 90% hp then Syndra needs 7-8 seconds MINIMUM to set up a one shot ult.

Pika FoxMay 25, 20181 votes

The likelyhood of you landing max range q without e is pretty much nil. It takes so long to setup the thin skillshot the enemy will likely dodge it. Sure, its possible, but youre losing 1/4th its damage and the chances of actually doing so are low enough that youre just not likely to be useful.

nm1010May 25, 20181 votes

The likelyhood of you landing max range q without e is pretty much nil. It takes so long to setup the thin skillshot the enemy will likely dodge it. Sure, its possible, but youre losing 1/4th its damage and the chances of actually doing so are low enough that youre just not likely to be useful.

The risk from max range is ALSO pretty much nil (Show me a champion who can gap close 2000 range). As for dodging it, if the Zoe player is any good they will use the QQR combo (which I found) so that you have less than a half a second of response time. That combo was what got her nerfed in the first place as you can cast q from the fog of war and give the opponent almost no chance to dodge the ability.

Pika FoxMay 25, 20181 votes

Then ward?

nm1010May 25, 20181 votes

Then ward?

Show me a game where a team managed to constantly have a 180° field of vision out to 2000 range. It doesn't exist. Even with wards she can easily pair up with a siege champion like Caitlyn to constantly pressure with e and qqr over walls while the enemy team tries to defend. 1-2 q hits or a bubble forces the enemy team away or they risk dying to a dive. Again this is a 0 risk strategy that you can see abused in both pro and solo q games

Pika FoxMay 25, 20181 votes

Zoe really doesnt wanna group with others. Its easy for her team to fuck up her E, which means no Q.

ZephyrDrakeMay 24, 20182 votes

a champion that is supposed to deal damage is actually dealing damage? you don't say?

FasmodeyMay 24, 20181 votes

Xerath deals damage too and requires to hit skills. You know "too tanky" meme right? Meme about a champion's main weakness. Which Zoe don't have.

ZephyrDrakeMay 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Xerath deals damage too and requires to hit skills. You know "too tanky" meme right? Meme about a champion's main weakness. Which Zoe don't have.

"something beats me so it requires no skill!"

go play Zoe then if it requires no skill and has no weaknesses. Oh wait! she barely has over 50% winrate… wow champion with no weaknesses and that require no skill to play and deal their damage sure are underwhelming if they barely win more than 50% of the time

PeachyBubbleStarMay 24, 20181 votes

No she doesn't, you're just bad LMAOOO

VanjieMay 24, 20181 votes

She is fine. Before her nerfs I would have said she needed them but they put her in a state that she has to do well to actually do well. This seperates the players that took the time to play Zoe and do good on her than the ones who whine about her because they cannot dodge a skillshot. She is fine.

Hi lm ZoeJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She is fine. Before her nerfs I would have said she needed them but they put her in a state that she has to do well to actually do well. This seperates the players that took the time to play Zoe and do good on her than the ones who whine about her because they cannot dodge a skillshot. She is fine.

Im the one who literally spent 60% of time that I played in LoL just to play her and practice her