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I feel like building "offtank" is purely useless

Dead flag blues··29 votes·1,544 views

Not sure if I'm just bad, but each time I play a "juggernaut" or "bruiser" (like Warwick / Illaoi), I really feel like I just can't 1v1 adcs or assassins. What's the point to get the tank items if they are purely useless ? In teamfights I die in less than one second. So either I need some advices because I'm doing something wrong, either there is really something wrong about bruisers / juggernauts right now. You can check my ELO and call me a noob or whatever, I barely play ranked (only to have fun with some friends), I mostly play ARAM.

So yeah please, what's wrong right now ? It never happened to me before, when I was built frozen heart or randuin, I felt like I had armor, now I just feel like a thing that you hit to regen your health and destroy quickly. Sometimes adcs don't even build Dominik's salute, only crit items and still deal fucktons of damage on me with self peel (like Caitlyn's E or Tristana W).

32 Comments

HalcyonDweller13 votes

Edit: Whoops I posted this in the wrong thread, oh well it's relevant anyways. :P

I'd be interested in toning down Crit damage to make it so Crit users have a tradeoff between choosing to build crit for damage vs tankier targets or build something else like lethality for damage vs squishier targets.

Right now they get to build crit and do everything better, which seems a little unbalanced to me.

oOBestEveNAOo7 votes

{quoted}

Edit: Whoops I posted this in the wrong thread, oh well it's relevant anyways. :P

Top kek.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Top kek.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I found your other thread because of the link you posted in this thread XD

I must have left this one open when I meant to be in your thread.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Athenes Lulu4 votes

More like any form of "offtank" strats are useless right now, if anything. But yes, itemization comes from a big part of it.

oOBestEveNAOo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n63JqtKJ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-08T21:45:47.047+0000)

More like any form of "offtank" strats are useless right now, if anything. But yes, itemization comes from a big part of it.

Strategies AND tactics. If honestly feels like anything that isn't a ranged champ with siege ability given how fast games are isn't even worth playing.

LordGeovanni5 votes

Full tanks with cc are worth playing but not for your own impact but to bolster ranged adc/ mage impact.

Troll for Trump3 votes

For most bruisers, there's no point in going tank, even when behind. You'll be trying to be a tank, but without the utility; in other words, you're useless. This applies more to laning bruisers than jglers, but it's along the same lines.

Just go full dmg, and play like an assassin rather than a bruiser.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Depends on the bruiser, some have huge huge base damage or tank scaling

Troll for Trump1 votes

I legit can't think of a bruiser that doesn't function in-lane without rushing their one damage item. The only possible one off the top of my head is Nasus, and he should still be getting sheen early.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Definitely not full tank, but off tank is extremely viable for certain champs and a resistance/HP component + some damage item (Tiamat, sheen, or w.e) in laning phase is fine if you're behind and not looking to make plays or anything

The ones off the top of my head that can go full defensive are mundo (mostly base damage), cho (focus on getting ult stacks + health, huge base damage on his spikes), and GP (can be useless in laning phase with 1 tank item then scale up anyway and splitpush for 4 damage items)

But a lot of bruisers can afford to delay their rush with 1 cloth armour/null magic cloak, (which usually builds into merc) and that's already like quarter/half way to the same resistances as a full tank item (despite only being 1/10th of the cost... 25 null into 55 adaptive helm)

Troll for Trump1 votes

Due to the snowball, I would say it's probably too late to go tank by the time you get Phage/Sheen/Tiamat+Boots, because the enemy will have built up too large of a lead, either in gold, roaming, or kills. I think the best use of gold is to just finish the damage item instead of sticking with core, and then adapting to the team.

Cho'gath isn't a bruiser. Mundo can get past with tank, too, yeah. If you go tank GP, I think the game's going to be over by the time you get enough gold to get triforce afterwards.

Yeah most bruisers can afford to get 1 cloth/negatron for boots, but that's it. Those aren't really tank items (everyone gets them).

Dead flag blues2 votes

Wow sorry, for the typos, I typed that quickly and was a bit tilted

Sona Ping2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n63JqtKJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-08T19:56:17.795+0000) **I feel like building "offtank" is purely useless **

Not sure if I'm just bad, but each time I play a "juggernaut" or "bruiser" (like Warwick / Illaoi), I really feel like I just can't 1v1 adcs or assassins. What's the point to get the tank items if they are purely useless ?

I did some double-checking and off-tank, bruiser, what ever you would like to call it is how you are "supposed to" build the champions. So, well, sorry to break it to you but issue is

I mostly play ARAM

ARAM is not an accurate representation of normal League gameplay.

But being serious. There is probably some issues with how you are playing the fights, assuming there's not some odd outside factor that is being missed. Good on you for looking into it and trying, it doesn't seem to be an issue with items, inherently.

Nice IGN, by the way.

SanKakU2 votes

I think it's the rune changes. Try getting some Lifesteal and build damage. Building tank is not acceptable anymore for the vast majority of champs it seems like.

redniwediS1 votes

Health/damage items are best used either as the defense of a very high damage build, or as the damage for a high resistance build. Damage is really high right now, so you're not really going to last a long time anyway, but you might have to adjust your build based on whether or not you think more damage or a little more tank will help your team more.

Personally I'm not a fan of Black Cleaver at the moment. It has nice stats, but if you rush it you just don't get the power spike you need. If you absolutely have to get a health/damage item early I recommend Sterak's Gage. If you need a lot of defense early on I highly recommend getting Jaurim's Fist right off the bat and then getting your tank, because it is simply a fantastic early game item right now.

Most of the games I'm seeing in your match history are ARAMs as Illaoi, and honestly ARAM is not a great place for her. It's simply too easy to focus her down, and she misses out on the smaller 2v1 fights she is amazing at. This could be part of what you're feeling, though it's definitely not all.

Dead flag blues1 votes

{quoted}

Health/damage items are best used either as the defense of a very high damage build, or as the damage for a high resistance build. Damage is really high right now, so you're not really going to last a long time anyway, but you might have to adjust your build based on whether or not you think more damage or a little more tank will help your team more.

Personally I'm not a fan of Black Cleaver at the moment. It has nice stats, but if you rush it you just don't get the power spike you need. If you absolutely have to get a health/damage item early I recommend Sterak's Gage. If you need a lot of defense early on I highly recommend getting Jaurim's Fist right off the bat and then getting your tank, because it is simply a fantastic early game item right now.

Most of the games I'm seeing in your match history are ARAMs as Illaoi, and honestly ARAM is not a great place for her. It's simply too easy to focus her down, and she misses out on the smaller 2v1 fights she is amazing at. This could be part of what you're feeling, though it's definitely not all.

thanks for the advices, so basically right now, it's better to stack health over defensive stats right ? I used to carry a lot as Illaoi in ARAM (each time someone wants to reroll her, I ask for it, that's why I have so much Illaoi in my match history).

redniwediS1 votes

Health stacking has uses, like getting a bigger Sterak's shield or doing more damage with Titanic Hydra, but ultimately having no resistances will leave you squishy. You should still be building resistances since resistances and health both make each other more effective. That's why items that give health and damage are so good on champions who like high resistance items.

Sona Ping3 votes

it's better to stack health over defensive stats right

You need both as a rule, stacking one over the other leads to the one you are stacking being weaker.

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n63JqtKJ,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-12-08T20:27:42.223+0000)

You need both as a rule, stacking one over the other leads to the one you are stacking being weaker.

In the current state of the preseason the most valuable defensive stat is actually HP. Damage is so ridiculous so early and resists are nerfed so it makes acquiring useful amounts of resists fast enough almost impossible.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Well actually with the increases to base HP (and resolve) and decreases to base resistances, it means that resistances are worth relatively more.

Going from 20 armour to 35 armour in 1 cloth armour (now the most common case) is better than the old 29 armour to 44 armour (since bruisers usually prefer 9 Armour seals vs a Jayce or Quinn)

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

You might feel interested in this thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/kO3v3opg-so-the-state-of-top-lane-isnt-peachy-heres-a-potential-solution-for-itemization

I'll be doing it for about a week and contributors are most welcome.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

I definitely never feel this. Whenever I play Illaoi ADCs don't wanna even be in their auto range of me.

Warwick I can understand, since the goal is to gun him down before he can continuously heal off you and since he only really beats people who are half health.

Spoofghoul1 votes

you are doing off tank wrong

item 3047 item 3078 item 3053 item 3157 item 3193 item 3083

is the way to go

dont forget the item active keystone for lower cdr ingenious hunter

at least you can now live for longer then 2,5 seconds

ADC5LUT1 votes

Play Gnar, build BC then full tank, 1v1 every ADC.

Vesemir1 votes

Its because these runes offer NOTHING for tanks and bruisers. Like seriously have a look at Precision Tree and Domination Tree and then look at Resolve. It's like a joke. Here have 300 Adaptive Hp meanwhile Precision gives 18% attack speed. Is this a joke?

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Depends on the bruiser/juggernaut. But yah a lot of champions that want to go off tank get blown up unless they possess some incredible self defense capabilities. Like hard CC, reliable self regen/base stats, mobility. Usually at least two of these are required to actually be able to do stuff in fights without being CCed to death or blown up in the process of doing your task.

RIP Darius

Sire Hippington1 votes

First off, off-tanks are in a very poor spot, especially for teamfights, so it's not just you. The other thing is something that most teams get wrong about them: they are not suited to be the primary frontline of a team. They are best used to followup up on an engage, ideally comeing rom the flank. So without a proper tank that starts the fight, they usually struggle as they eat full focus then going in while they actually would need some disteraction. How ever, most people see a darius or the likes and think 'frontline', pick their squishy assasins or backliner and call it a day, which results in poor teamcomps for teamfights.

Right now, if you don't go straight fulltank, your not getting nearly tanky enough to sustain through any damage in a teamfight(unless you're far ahead), but if you go fulltank on most bruisers, you just get ignored. So most of the time, going full off and playing like an assasins is the best call on them...

SzGamer2271 votes

If you want to feel truly tanky while playing a juggernaut, I would highly recommend Urgot. You can build Black Cleaver and Frozen Mallet into full tank and be completely unkillable late game unless heavily focused, which is more than I can say about some actual tanks.

Illaoi simply has too build too much damage to truly be an off-tank (Cleaver + Death's Dance + Sterak's is 2 hybrid items and 1 full offense one).

Warwick relies on his flat sustain from passive and Q to stay alive, unlike juggernauts that have durability that scales with health.

Darius can be extremely successful as a true offtank with Black Cleaver into full tank, but he's very susceptible to being kited and has to land constant Q's on enemy champions while at low health to achieve the same durability that Urgot gets with his W shield.

L9 Caps1 votes

Dude I'm sorry but I don't think you should be allowed to 1v1 assassins or adcs. Literally you being able to do that as a tank and bruiser was why people complained about the tank meta. Also you need to understand warwick and illaoi can get kited very easily by trist cait and other adcs who are good right now, and assassins have mobility. You aren't going to win every and make everything go your way. I'm sorry but you're not right on your points. Right now we are in a damage heavy meta with not many tanks around (which i actually like personally) which means you'll generally feel less tanky. Damage got heavily buffed in the preseason while tankyness got nerfed. It's just the way it is. Also warwick has a 52.61% winrate while illaoi has a 52.51% winrate(both at around silver), so i don't know what your point is. They aren't weak, its probably you not playing them right or being overaggressive or just things to do with how good you are at the game not not so much mechanics because i think everyone can agree they are not really that challenging to play(AT LEAST in my opinion). I'd suggest playing more normals and actually trying to improve, not just playing ARAM. ARAM isn't going to teach you the aspects of the game if I'm honest. Anyways Good Luck in the future![katarina-love]

L9 Caps1 votes

Also i saw your match history and a lot of these players are like high silver - plat, so they know how to play the game better which also makes my point even more important. Game knowledge is your problem. They are just way above your skill level which is why they are good against you and they feel unkillable. A good player will ALWAYS take advantage of the player who is below them. You either have to take action and get better yourself or learn to live with it. Or you know possibly stop premading with people in plat or something. You playing with people who are way higher than you influence the MMR of any gamemode, which makes matchmaking impossible to balance, which means if you play by yourself in aram for around a day or two and just keep losing you will aventually be brought down to your skill level or very close to it to the point where it's bearable.

The Real A Twice1 votes

Try playing with Grasp and Overgrowth, it feels great. build all tank items.

Darius . Builditem 3110 item 3143 item 3068 item 3075 item 3065 and item 3111 or item 3047

Garen build item 3053 item 3075 item 3068 item 3143 item 3065 and item 3047 or item 3111

Both of these guys have high base AD/HP, so they scale well into the mid game without additional health scaling. when you add in the grasp and overgrowth health, the only champions that can outclass them in terms of effective health late game are Chogath and Ornn . for Darius, you don't need AD to have damage due to his passive, and for Garen you need to work around the villain target.

the one downfall of building like this is that if your bot lane feeds, RIP.

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