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[Preseason] Itemization Issues - Three AD+MR Items Might Be Too Much

Pyro·10/24/2016, 1:37:44 PM·19 votes·1,818 views

Hello I'm Pyro and I like writing about item systems. You can find the feedback megathread here, where I talk about all items introduced in the Preseason 7.

This thread is dedicated to a single topic - the new item Edge of Night and the changes to Maw of Malmortius. The PBE changelog at the moment goes as follows:

http://i.imgur.com/wFyCLky.jpg Edge of Night (aka Sorcerer's Bane) (NEW ITEM)

  • Recipe: item 3134 Serrated Dirk + item 1037 Pickaxe + item 1033 Null-Magic Mantle + 675 g (3100 g total)
  • +60 AD, +35 MR
  • Passive: +20 Lethality, +20 Movement Speed out of combat
  • Active: Channel for 1.5s to gain a spellshield for 10 seconds, 30 second cooldown. (Can be channeled while moving, any damage will stop the channel.)

(Lethality is reworked Flat Armor Penetration. This item has 10-20 flat armor penetration, scaling with target's level).

item 3156 Maw of Malmortius

  • Recipe: item 3155 Hexdrinker + item 3133 Caulfield's Warhammer + 850 g (cost unchanged)
  • +55 AD >> +50 AD
  • +40 MR >> +45 MR
  • +10 armor penetration >> +10% Cooldown Reduction
  • Passive now also grants +20 AD on trigger.

The whole paradigm of this change is that Maw of Malmortius is supposed to be a Fighter item, while Edge of Night is a replacement for the midlane AD assassins. Malmortius lost a significant part of its burst booster (10 arpen... and 5 AD! heh), and Edge of Night's build path doesn't have the Hexdrinker defensive power spike in it...

...but what stops AD assassins from rushing Hexdrinker and leaving it unupgraded until later on, as they kinda do already?

The problem here is the potential three-item stack of Malmortius, Edge of Night, and Mercurial Scimitar.

#AD vs AP

AD champions have always been a class-wide counter to midlane mages. Talon, Zed, Kha'Zix back in the day, occasional Pantheon and Jarvan IV, Yasuo, but also Marksmen like Ezreal, Varus, Corki and Quinn - across the last few seasons they've always been the scissors to paper midlaners. It's a combination of several factors:

  • sustained damage from basic attacks allows to win longer trades and all-ins
  • mobile assassins in general counter immobile, skillshot-reliant mages
  • manaless laning of Yasuo and Zed, two most popular AD midlaners
  • if you can't decisively win the lane, you can always roam and murder side lanes
  • and if everything above fails, Hexdrinker.

The discrepancy between Hexdrinker and its counterpart Seeker's Armguard is simply jarring. Armguard costs 1200g, grants 1035g worth of stats upon purchase and stacks up to value of 1661g. Hexdrinker, meanwhile, is cost-efficient straight away (1300g price, 1330g of stats) and its passive shield is worth 300 to 750g - around 480g at level 8, making the whole item's value around 1800g.

Of course Zhonya's Horglass is an extremely powerful defensive item, but mages are put in a difficult situations where they have to choose between survivability of Zhonya and mana pool of Morellonomicon. This is a choice that AD champions don't have to make - they do not build mana items or even lifesteal, they just stack AD and neat item actives/passives.

The idea of switching assassins to Edge of Night is commendable. The item's active can be situationally borderline broken, but it's hard to pull off and the build path is drastically different. One single Null-Magic Mantle is all the defensive power the item grants until completion. Laning against an AD assassin, item-wise, shouldn't be as hard as it used to be...

...but are we sure they still won't be building Hexdrinker? Hexdrinker into Youmuu's is a thing already, and that item is not changing at all. With Youmuu's nerfed (AS removed, less armor penetration) there's a real possibility of Hexdrinker into Edge of Night becoming the next popular build.

Stacking these two items with Mercurial Scimitar isn't going to be something we see in every game, but the point stands AD assassins will have access to an arsenal of anti-magic tools larger than ever before.

#Suggested changes

Okay, so Malmortius is shifted towards being more of a fighter item. Good. How about we do the same to Hexdrinker, too? The shield and MR are always going to be extremely powerful, so how about we nerf it in the most memetic way imaginable?

-5 AD

That's it folks. Strip 5 AD off Hexdrinker and we're good to go. If that's too harsh, lower the cost of the item by 50-100g or something.

Another way would be linking the cooldowns of Edge of Night and QSS like it happened with Malmortius ans Sterak, but that might just be too much.

#Questions

  • Are midlane AD assassins intended to build Hexdrinker into Edge of Night?
  • Is the access to more AD+MR items going to tilt the AD vs AP matchup in the AD favour?
  • What about Edge of Night on botlane AD Carries? Intended (with the removal of the Legion aura) or not?
  • Is there any compensation planned for Karthus? It outright blocks his ultimate on demand.

Overall I don't consider this topic to be alarming, but I feel like it's worth talking about.

22 Comments

Stars Shaper10/24/2016, 1:58:24 PM6 votes

EoN is going to be a problem because all Assassins can engage you pretty instantly and if you rely on a single CC skill to keep them at bay (which is the case for most of the mages) and you see they jumping in with Assa Banshee's on them you can just cross your arms and think about where to go after respawning.

All Assassins are going to get their kits leaving them somehow vulnerable, this item kills the intent. I can't see a single way for ppl like: Anivia AurelionSol Brand Cassiopeia Lissandra Lux Orianna Taliyah Varus Veigar Velkoz Viktor Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra to ever be able to survive an engage like that expecially since Zhonya (the only item which can counter something like that) has a far higher CD which if even grants you a save it's going to happen 1/4 of the times they can engage you.

Ralanr10/24/2016, 1:46:43 PM5 votes

In theory (IMO) what's stopping assassins from using Maw and Edge of Night is the amount of control and how low the cooldown is on Edge.

I mean, 30 cooldown to counter any ability is actually pretty awesome. Combine with the channel while moving, it becomes a great item to utilize and possibly the only defensive item you need if you're good enough.

But the problem is that people don't stop at "just enough". Assassins like CDR (every class likes CDR) so grabbing Maw isn't too bad beyond losing lethality. So unless that lose of lethality is going to severely hurt your damage output late game (where lethality spikes) then Maw is a great item against a heavy AP comp.

The biggest problem with Maw (IMO) is that one of its components has the shield proc. Meaning you can get it early. Maybe if Riot only put that in the final item it'd be less of a hard counter.

HazyCloud710/24/2016, 10:35:55 PM3 votes

I've talked about this in depth but the anti mage circle jerk is determined to make sure posts like these don't become popular. Facts:

  1. AD assassins will continue to build hexdrinker.
  2. The channel time is irrelevant, all it takes to ensure that you aren't interrupted is to simply walk out of range of your lane opponent.
  3. Blocking one damage spell or CC spell will allow AD assassins to auto win all ins against mages and AP assassins.
  4. The CD on Edge of Night's active is absurdly low, and the time that the spell shield is active (10 seconds) is absurdly high.
  5. Adcs will build and abuse edge of night, just like they did for ghostblade and duskblade.
MunchCrunchLunch10/24/2016, 3:41:10 PM3 votes

why does it matter when you have Velkoz that can nuke you for 1500 true damage?

FalconPawwwwnch10/25/2016, 1:09:14 AM2 votes

Nobody is playing assassins in competitive play right now I hope you realize that

You're acting as if they don't need buffs by saying EoN and Maw will be a problem when they're all trash currently

The Yetii Rider10/24/2016, 4:57:34 PM2 votes

Assassins are melee champions. If they don't have the power to survive early trades with mages, they won't see play, and then marksmen will continue to be an unchecked problem.

As you mentioned, Zed and Yasuo are the single outliers to AD midlaners. Talon, Kha'Zix, Ezreal and Varus are fine alternatives to mages but they don't straight up win the lane by being picked.

With the potential expansion of 6 bans to 10 bans in the preseason, just ban out Yasuo and Zed, and you shouldn't have a problem. No reason to restrict item 3155 from its intended use of allowing AD champs to deal with ranged harass in lane.

Wolfram Oxford10/24/2016, 1:57:50 PM2 votes

item 3157 counters all assassins, no complaint item 3026 counters all assassins, no complaint

Seriously thought we would have GA turned into an elixir that takes up an item slot (automatic consumption upon death), and then Zhonya's would be change so that it mitigates a portion of damage.

Only Play Darius10/24/2016, 7:37:54 PM2 votes

Would prefer some AD/Armor options since we don't have any of those

SwiftKitten8810/24/2016, 9:08:17 PM2 votes

idk what to vote.. edge of night is an problem. but people need to stop thinking in terms of the 1.5 channel can be interrupted...

YES it can... but all you need to do is walk out of their ability range before going in...

even if they DO proc it when u run in... you still got rid of one of their spells. which generally means u win the 1v1.

plus the duration of the spellshield and its cooldown are beyond absurd. 10 seconds? for a Sivir spellshield and on a 30 second cooldown?

if you press the active before going in for ANY trade you are going to win that trade.... flat out.. even if u misplay it.

it also negates ANY window of vulnerability what you normally have when an important spell is on cooldown. becuase when u can just press the active.. and by the time it wear off your skill will be off cooldown unless its an ulti.

yes the stats are an issue and i dont think AD need another VS ap item..

but honestly that is negligible compared to how absurdly OP the active is..

IF this goes live how it is now.. i can 100% guarentee you i am building it first item after item 1410 on Nidalee

does it give AP? nope.. but WHO CARES!!! 20% movement speed when roaming i can cast the channel right before the spear lands...

i don't give a damn about the base stats.. you think nidalee is an issue NOW?

what until people us THIS on her.

I MAIN NIDALEE.

THIS ITEM IS GOING TO MAKE HER ABSURDLY OP

D357R0Y3R10/24/2016, 1:59:25 PM2 votes

considering how mages are overwhelming the lcs (yes we do care about lcs, because i don't want to lose if i play against a high skilled mage) i just want the changes to go live and test them, then fixe them

afterall tha's what preseason is made for

TenshouSNK10/25/2016, 2:38:46 AM1 votes

With hex I could instagib a lb as quinn early game.

Rebonack10/24/2016, 5:05:37 PM1 votes

This topic needs about twenty percent more walrus.

More generally, I can see Hexdrinker into Edge being a pretty common thing for mid-lane AD champs. However, given how Edge works, how broadcast it is, it may simply cause lane opponents to either all-in to halt the channel or back off and wait out the ten seconds.

My gut feeling is that we're going to see that ten second duration drop to make disengaging a more attractive option or a longer channel time to give more of a chance to bop someone. Maybe even both.

Supreme Senpai6910/24/2016, 10:51:37 PM1 votes

I still think 10 seconds is just way too freakin long