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Supports need more item options like junglers have (with sightstones, GP10, etc.)

Pyro··201 votes·8,857 views

TL;DR: Give supports choices to make when buying items - More Sightstones - More GP10 final upgrades - Make the secondary support items feel good

http://i.imgur.com/5ZZwSS6.jpg

EDIT: This thread is continued in: The Support Project

It's nice that junglers have 4 smite upgrades and 4 enchantments, which sums up to 16 different combinations. I think this should help us highlight how limited and narrow the support itemization is in early game.

Have you ever seen a support build in competitive scene, like LCS or OGN? 30 minutes into the game, it's an unfinished Spellthief's Edge, Sightstone, Boots of Mobility and usually at most one single support item - Mikael's Crucible or Locket of the Iron Solari (unless it's a snowballing Morgana, then it's Zhonya's Hourglass).

item 3303 item 2049 item 3222 item 3117 item 2043 - a typical endgame support build on pretty much any non-tank champion in pro scene item 3401 item 2045 item 3117 - 4600g spent on a tank build (Leona, Braum) with no alternative choice to be made at any point

In your everyday solo queue game, there are a lot more kills and a lot less pink wards, so supports have more gold at their disposal, That, however, doesn't change the core of the problem. The build will accelerate faster and at 50 minutes you will actually have some items, but the choice for the first 3 ones will be just as limited.

Why we need more options? To feel better? To have more power? No - to enhance gameplay through decision making. Having options means choosing between route A and route B. Every route is different. Making a decision to buy A or to buy B is part of game and requires knowledge and adaptation skill. It's nothing big, but it separates people mindlessly following one build from people capable of adapting to the situation. A good example would the DFG/Zhonyas dilemma in the mid lane on select champions (Annie, Ahri, Lissandra).

#One Way Ticket

item 3302 item 3301 item 3303

Once the support picks a GP10 item line - which most champions can do efficiently in one, at most two ways - their first 3000 spent gold is set in stone. There is no choice to be made until 2200 g is spent on the gold item and 800g on a Sightstone. In most games lasting shorter than 20-30 minutes, supports will have pretty much the exact same build every single game - for a tank like Braum or Leona, it will be FotM, Sightstone and Boots of Mobility, game over.

The problem of Sightstone lacking alternative upgrades has been already brought up in countless posts, but this is only a part of the problem. Building items is not only about minmaxing your champion's potential, but also about adapting to the situation, Supports have no choice to make with their core item, unlike the junglers.

Therefore, I believe that the GP10 items need alternative final upgrades.

#Sight Seeing

item 2049 item 3341 item 2043

Introduction of Sightstone brought an end to the era of Ward Bitch Healer archetype. Maybe you haven't witnessed that, but in the legendary CLG.EU vs WE game during Season 2 World Championship, in the 50th minute a support Janna had only 2000g worth of items: tier 1 boots and GP10-granting items Philospher's Stone and Heart of Gold - she has spent all the rest of her gold on dozens of wards (50 to 70, I believe).

It's much, much better now, but Sightstone is in a weird spot where it can't be too gold efficient, or everyone, starting with junglers, will pick it up and litter the map with wards. The possibility of buying Sightstone favours champions who can get away with it - for example Nunu, Elise, and Lee Sin - and hinders champions who need to spend their gold on combat statistics (like Kha'Zix, and there was one trying to purchase Sightstone in the latest round of EULCS Expansion Tournament). And the "supports are designed to use less gold" paradigm doesn't hold anymore, as with the introduction of GP10 items even the "true supports" like Janna and Sona received AP scalings on their utility.

The best way to expand this item would be giving it the same treatment that the jungle items had: introduce alternative gold efficient Sightstone upgrades that would offer different stats (health, mana, AP).

#Cool Down the CDR

item 3067 item 3114 item 3108

Even though lowering CDR on Talisman from 20 to 10 mid-season 4 opened up the itemization a little bit, quite a few support items are underused because CDR and mana regen they grant becomes superfluous. Ardent Censer is a great example - even though it has a great synergy with Janna, Mikael's Crucible is so dominant that the supposedly cheap and efficient item sees almost no play - since Censer's mana regen gets overshadowed by the one from Crucible.

To be honest, I'm starting to believe that the problem is Mikael's Crucible itself. There is no choice to be made about this item - CC or no CC, it's a godsend for saving carries (which is the main job of supports) and it's also the best mana regen item in the game at the same time, lowering the gained value from items like Censer and allowing to get away with starting Spellthief's Edge and never upgrading it. I believe the best solution to make purchasing Crucible a meaningful choice would be making it the third Aegis upgrade. This way, you're getting team-wide defense (Locket), focused rescue (Mikaels) or strategical value (Banner) - and if you want heavy mana regeneration, you have to build specifically for it.

Other situational and theoretically usable item is Twin Shadows. Surprise surprise - AP supports will rather opt for real AP items, like Morellonomicon, Zhonya's Hourglass or Liandry's Torment - and if feeling lucky, Mejai's Soulstealer is a better option for heavy AP. Zeke's Herald is just a painful and unrewarding support item as it is for tanks (and even more so for mages).

All in all, the support items need to be either attractive enough to be worth rushing right after GP10 - so, on par with Locket and Mikaels - or meaningful enough to have a place in a lategame build - so, on par with the usual AP items used by midlaners (and therefore available to midlaners).

This section contains example solutions to the forementioned problem, so if you don't agree with my assessment, you can skip to the end. The solutions might be wrong, of course, and feel free to add your feedback.

#The Expanded GP10 Lines

There are two ways to design alternative final forms of GP10 items: by similarity (so the main stats are more or less the same) or by expansion, introducing a statistic far away from the core of the item line. Same goes about the costs: either we keep everything at the same price (2200g) or introduce two alternative pricing levels - for example, 1800 and 2200 gold. This way supports who are behind or looking towards other items could rush a cheaper GP10 upgrade. Stats, components and pricing aside, in the end it's all about the item effects. I guess the question here is: when do the current actives feel lackluster on supports supposedly made for the HP/regen/AP line?

item 3401 Face of the Mountain feels weak when used on yourself, as the explosion damage is much higher when used on ADCs. You're gonna have a hard time being in range of ADC if you dive and disable the enemy carries instead of peeling for the ADC (Leona is a good example here). Two ideas I've come up with are Bracer upgrade (for frontline regen theme) and Raptor Cloak (for towerdive theme).

Targon's alternative upgrade - codename: Crescent Shield of the Lunari Build - similar: item 3097 + item 3801, alternative: item 3097 + item 2053

  • Option 1 - Active: Gain 20 armor and MR per enemy champion in the nearby area for 10 seconds.
  • The "I'M GONNA DIVE YOU HARD" version. Preferrably building out of Raptor Cloak.
  • Option 2 - Passive: Whenever a nearby enemy dies, restore 10% of missing health to all nearby allies.
  • A slight rework of the previous one, requiring success to pay off. A "little bit" snowbally.
  • Option 3 - Passive: Whenever a nearby ally dies, you gain 50% of their AD and AP for 10 seconds. If you avenge them, they get full gold for the kill.
  • I had this initially in mind when naming the item after Diana's subfaction of Mt. Targon - becoming an avatar of vengeance.
  • It's sad when your carry dies and you get left behind, with very low damage potential (think Braum, Leona, Alistar). Of course it means that you failed at your job, but still, this allows for some action instead of running around helpless awaiting your doom.
  • Of couse this is pretty controversial - an item that could make people want to let their carries die - but I've figured the concept is interesting enough to be worth mentioning.
  • Obviously limited to one ally getting the buff from one death, to prevent people from running multiple insteances of this item.
  • Option 4 - Active: Challenge an enemy champion for 5 seconds. If they attack anyone but you, they deal 25% less damage.
  • A soft taunt. "Hit me or you won't do that much damage". Effect would need to be visually readable (tether, for example).

item 3069 Talisman is already the best active item of them all, so the alternative item needs to fill a very different niche. The only problem with this line is very low power in lane - the mana regen on Medallion got nerfed to half of that on Frostfang, and Ancient Coin is just laughably bad compared ot alternatives. This item line is supposed to be worse early and better late, but it could use a tiny buff, I think - Ancient Coin could get 5-10 MS, to solidify the item's identity as "utility>movement", and Medallion nerf should probably get reverted (why would Frostfang have twice as much mana regen as the utility-oriented item?).

Alternative upgrade: First, looking at components - the Tear concept is meant to preserve the "lategame" theme of the Shurimian line, which provides utility over combat statistics. Obviously the item would have enhanced effect after 750/750 transformation and some sort of mana-to-stat conversion. Possible candidates are health (like Singed's passive), health regen (like Strength of Spirit mastery) or resists. There's an option of using the Bracer here, especially if the Targons alternative upgrade builds out of Raptor Cloak.

Talisman's alternative upgrade - codename: Shurelya's Oasis Build - similar: item 3096 + item 3070, alternative: item 3096 + item 3801

  • Passive (Tear version): Gain bonus health equal to 20% of your maximum mana. (Or health regen. Or bonus resists. Something)
  • Option 1 - Active: Restore 50% of missing mana to target ally. 60 second cooldown. Stacked Tear A: Restore 50% of missing mana to all nearby allies. 60 second cooldown. Stacked Tear B: Restore 25% of missing health and 50% of missing mana to target ally. 60 second cooldown.
  • It's summoner spell Clarity in an item
  • Could actually make a difference for the likes of Ezreal and Corki
  • Option 2 - No Active Stacked Tear (Shurelya's Sandstorm) - Active: After a 2 seconds, summons a sandstorm in a target area that obscures vision of enemies inside it for 10 seconds.
  • Think "Ascension" featured game mode
  • Obviously needs some windup time, can't be instant, enemies need to react
  • Enemies can see from the outside (so it works like Graves's Smokescreen)
  • Best possible use: Obscure vision in dragon/baron pit while the enemy is doing it
  • Seems just as OP as Talisman, all is well on the Rift ;)

item 3092 Frost Queen's Claim is possibly the least attractive GP10 finisher. The Freljord line is best for early harass, but FQC doesn't satisfy champions who would prefer much heavier AP (like Annie) or don't need AP that much (most Jannas will sell this and buy Talisman).

After the 4.20 changes, the mana regen granted by Frostfang is actually lower than before until mid to lategame and it's actually better to leave Spellthief's Edge unfinished if you don't plan to upgrade it into FQC. I think Frostfang could have its AP increased to 10-20.

Frostfang's alternative upgrade - codename: Shard of the True Ice (I am so original) Build - similar: item 3098 + item 3113, alternative: item 3098 + item 3145

  • Option 1 - Active: Channel for up to 3 seconds, restoring 50% of your missing mana. You gain 100 armor and magic resistance for the duration of the channel.
  • Can be used to restore mana, can be used as mini-Zhonyas
  • CC an silences will break the channel, of course
  • Option 2 - Active: Grant nearby allies +30 AP and 10% spellvamp for 10 seconds.
  • Old WotA in an (active) item
  • This effects can apply to both builds, doesn't have to have spellvamp normally
  • Option 3 - Passive: Restore mana equal to 10% of damage dealt
  • As long as you land the harass, you should restore some mana and keep the pain train going
  • If scrapped and reused on more than one item, the mechanic could be called "Mana Leech"

All in all, the alternative items listed above are secondary to the main point of the project, which is:

#The Sightstones

The idea behind this particular expansion is quite simple and loosely based on the preseason jungle items. Here's the main concept:

  • Four different Sightstone upgrades, each one gold efficient (stats are worth the full price):
  • Types: item 1028 Ruby - health, item 1027 Sapphire - mana, item 1006 Emerald - regen, item 1052 Opal - AP
  • Final versions enhance your warding, by either:
  • increasing the ward lifespan to 240 seconds
  • increasing the number of stacks on Sightstone to 6
  • allowing you to regain stacks without going back to base, for example whenever a ward is being destroyed nearby
  • increasing the casting range (like Feral Flare)
  • The stats and vision enhancement are balanced in one of the two following ways:
  • Option 1 - Pick Your Enchantment: The upgraded Sightstones can be enchanted later on (level 9?) with selected vision enhancements.
  • Option 2 - Two-Dimensional: The upgraded Sightstones are bundled with the vision enhancements - you need to find balance between desired efect and statistics (Something like Zhonya's Hourglass - sometimes it's not the armor you want the most, it's the stasis effect).

That's awesome and whatnot, but to make sure that the vision control is available for supports and grants good stats, but doesn't get abused by all other roles:

  • Sightstone costs 400 gold and grants no stats whatsoever. It requires level 4 to purchase.
  • Purchasing Sightstone and a Ruby Crystal has the exact same effect (you get wards and 150 health) as on Live.
  • Stacking Sightstones is limited in one of the following ways (You can have Lee Sin using it to jump around, but it comes at a price):
  • Option 1 - The original idea: one Sightstone per team, but that could probably result in junglers taking it and forcing supports to buy wards.
  • Option 1a - Two Sightstones per team; in competitive it would make it a must-have for junglers, but least they won't lose gold efficiency on it
  • Option 2 - Sightstone wards are limited per team (to 4?).
  • Option 3 - This could also be solved by introducing a team-wide ward limit (5-7, counting trinkets or not).
  • Option 4 - There's always an option of requiring a GP10 item to purchase a Sightstone.

Example batch of items (the Two-Dimensional version, where you balance between the stats and the effect):

| item 2049 Upgrade | Cost | Stats | item 2044 bonus | item 2043 bonus |-|-|-|- | item 1028 Ruby | 1100 | 400 health, | +60 s duration, | +2 health | item 1027 Sapphire | 900 | 400 mana, | +2 Sightstone charges (6), | Gain vision of the area for 5 seconds whenever it dies | item 1006 Emerald | 1000 | +100% health/mana regen, | Recharge on nearby ward kills, | Restore 1 health every 10 seconds | item 1052 Opal | 1200 | +60 ability power, | +400 placement range (1000), | Reveal all Sight Wards in the range (even over walls)

This is obviously just an example. Perhaps it could even be possible to introduce the commonly mentioned "increase ward limit to 4" effect without it being broken and obscuring other choices.

If going for the "stats first, enchantment later" option, the pricing could differ - mana and regen are less combat-effective as HP and AP, so Sapphire and Emerald Sightstones could be cheaper than Ruby and Opal. And of course the enchantments would need to get their costs specified. Most people I've talked this over with preferred the two-step choices (first upgrades, then enchantments), but it might be easier to balance items with multiple power axes.

#Support Items

Last part would be rebalancing the secondary support items so that the likes of Ardent Censer and Zeke's Herald have their purpose, and Mikael's Crucible isn't a must-have on every single support without any competition.

item 3222 As mentioned earlier, the best way to balance out Crucible would probably be removing the "You no longer get out of mana" component, as this makes the item uncontested in both saving carries and spamming built-in heals. One item shouldn't be #1 in both. An idea I've come up with is making Crucible an Aegis + Idol upgrade (in extreme version - just Aegis, without Idol). This preserves the "ADC protection" theme while presenting you with a meaningful choice - do you protect your whole team with Locket, or that one single target with Crucible? I'd also seriously consider removing the healing part of the active and reducing the cooldown to 90 seconds, especially if the alternative Medallion upgrade was to receive the heal.

item 3504 Of course supports would need some compensation for the loss of Chalice, and here's where Censer gains value. I think the idea of Tear+Medallion upgrade is one thing to fix that, and another way would be rebalancing the whole mana and CDR itemization - but that probably wouldn't fit in this post and is a good material for the next episode of this project. Without any additional changes, though, that could actually make picking Censer a good idea, since you'd still make use of the mana regen.

item 3023 Twin Shadows are in a weird spot where they're not good enough to be rushed, and not good enough to stay in a lategame build either. One way to move it into the "lategame" side of the spectrum would be increasing the MS gain to 10%, making this a "mage Zephyr" that could replace boots in some situations. Of course that would require increasing the price or lowering the AP to 60, and the %MS passive should probably become unique (not stacking with Censer and Lichbane).

item 3050 As for Zeke's, this item needs to be redone. As it is it's neither a tank item, nor a damage item, nor a support item. If it's supposed to be a support item, the best way would be removing the Vampiric Scepter from the build and making the aura an active effect (shifting away from the "power without gameplay" problem). As a fighter item, it simply needs to be more slot-effective than that, for a higher price - it could work as a Brutalizer or Phage upgade.

There are some other issues like the lack of anti-AD itemization for supports when compared to anti-AP, but that's material for a separate discussion.

The idea behind forementioned CDR overhaul would be making all 20% CDR items build out of two 10% components and grant situational utility rather than power - current Morellonomicon is a great example for that. A few new ones would be needed, especially considering that the suggested alternative GP10 final items have no CDR whatsoever.

Rough sketch of an example changelog:

All current 20% CDR items but Morellonomicon are down to 10% CDR and 350g cheaper and/or receiving some sort of compensation for it.

Sample new 20% CDR items (exact stats to be adjusted, but all those items should be around 2000-2500g): Blackfrost Buckler: (Kindlegem + Glacial Shroud) - 10% reduced damage from enemies affected by crowd control Sanguine Orb: (Kindlegem + Fiendish Codex) - When out of mana, you can cast spells paying with your health Soul Shroud: (Kindlegem + Forbidden Idol) - 25% reduced death timer Chillwind Crown: (Glacial Shroud + Fiendish Codex) - Reduce the cooldowns of activable items by 20% Sage's Runestone: (Glacial Shroud + Forbidden Idol) - Increased experience earned by 10% Arcane Helix: (Kindlegem + Forbidden Idol + Fiendish Codex) - 30% CDR (this item does not need to exist) - Reduces the cost of all spells by 10% Basically - take two or three or all of those concepts, mix up, implement.

The idea is to make purchasing big CDR a conscious decision, and having the 20% CDR items less overpowering in terms of sttas and active effects.

#Discussion time

  • Are you happy with the current support itemization?
  • If so, what do you like about it, if not, what is your main problem with it?
  • Do you feel like any of those changes are needed at all?
  • Which concepts do you like, which are unnecessary, which are outright bad?
  • Sightstones: Stat+effect bundle, or two-step cherrypicking?
  • How do we get to the "MOAR SIGHTSTONES" state without the menace of junglers stealing the support warding glory?

Feel free to bash my complaints and concepts into the ground and present some better ones :)

143 Comments

Knight Devout9 votes

As an avid support players, I also agree that support are tunneled into 2 builds , depending on their role, without enough diversity.

I previously tried to discuss something similar through this post about sightstones , but generally people complain that all this discussion just come from support players wanting more "personal power". Because apparently that's an issue,unless you play whatever fotm champion is dominating at the moment.

However, rather than personal power, what supports need is diversity and tools to continue their job. They won't ever be fighters, or assassin, or a damage threat, so it's no wonder that , yes, they need special care because the moment they become frustrating to play, as a class, you'll see the whole support playerbase disappear and disperse in other roles.

This season already hits supports, as all other roles gold gain has been improved, thus placing supports again at last place. And , less gold, less itemization choice. Hence why I wanted to introduce diversity at least on sightstone. making Sightstone worth upgrading, and with different upgrades, creates room for strategy. And that's vital, no matter how powerful the role is. Also, by gating the sightstone upgrade to gold gained with support items you made the junglers unable to buy it, making their effects able to be tuned only to the support role without abuse case. Remember when adc players were crying over the fact that their build was always BT+PD and IE as luxury item?

You have some fun ideas but I think they need a little more polish. Especially, most of the actives are quite unpractical and they would never be picked, like the clarity one.

#DISCLAIMER: NOT MY IDEA There was this nice player once with this great idea about support itemization. Basically, he proposed 2 different upgrades path for each support starter item, one with an active, and one with a passive.

Example: item 3302 Relic Shield, upgrades into Targon bracer, and THEN you can choose between an item like face of the mountain , or an item like a low range Aegis aura, but centered about mitigating physical damage, and damage from critical strikes. item 3098 Frostfang builds into the current one , or a Will of the Ancient-like buff that refunds some mana on spell hit. (needs to keep current tradeoff between early harass and lategame efficiency). item 3096 Nomad's medallion builds into Talisman, or another item that grants a smaller movement buffs out of combat.

The choice, rather than on power, is what strategy you want to play lategame. And, unlike other aura item, they don't grant raw stats, but an effect when certain conditions are met. item 3401 Face of the mountain shield allows to increase any ally survivability from range- the passive upgrade while weaker makes all allies near you much stronger in prolonged combats against divers. item 3092 Gives a strong ranged engage- the other increases the siege potential of your team. item 3069 Is good for rapid movements and sudden reactions, like engages or disengages- the passive effect makes your team better in rotations between lanes or managing objectives as they are continuously faster when out of combat.

Pyro4 votes

people complain that all this discussion just come from support players wanting more "personal power".

It's not about personal power, it's about expanding limited gameplay options. When you play midlane mages, you can rush Zhonya's or DFG on the very same champions (Annie, Lissandra, Ahri), creating drastically different gameplay style, adapting to the situation.

This season already hits supports, as all other roles gold gain has been improved, thus placing supports again at last place.

I'd argue junglers have it worse in 4.20, but 4.21 brings a buff to jungle goldstream.

As for alternative GP10 items - Passive effects are one way to do it, but they create this "power without gameplay" that Riot is trying to avoid.

Sooko6 votes

We need Sightstone enchantments, just like boots and machetes!

Chortle6 votes

I think the gp/10 items should be where the diversity lies.

As for the other items, they are all situational depending on what your team/champion calls for. The stats they give are pretty generic, but more often than not, you buy the items for their actives (which can be game changing).

Many non-support items can be used on supports with great effect aswell (Zhonya's, Warmogs, mobi boots weren't a big thing on supports until recent).

I do think that ward upgrades should be available so that more benefit is gained for late game supports. (choose from stat bonuses, to utility bonuses, to warding mechanics possibly an invisible ward that has 5second true sight before turning back to normal ward).

SmokingPuffin8 votes

Many non-support items can be used on supports with great effect aswell (Zhonya's, Warmogs, mobi boots weren't a big thing on supports until recent).

Mobi boots were core on every support in season 2 and most of them for season 3.

I do think that ward upgrades should be available so that more benefit is gained for late game supports. (choose from stat bonuses, to utility bonuses, to warding mechanics possibly an invisible ward that has 5second true sight before turning back to normal ward).

item 2045 is indeed super underwhelming and could use some sprucing up or alternative item paths.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

There's a certain danger with regard to item 2045 and related Sightstone upgrades:

If you make them too good, other roles will pick them up, just because vision is such a HUGE strength in any game with FoW. We've already started to see this trend if you look at the Summer LCS/OGN and Worlds games - junglers like Lee Sin, Nunu, Elise will pick up Sightstone just to get the bonus vision they provide. Now imagine that, but 10x worse due to stronger sightstone upgrades.

SmokingPuffin5 votes

There's a certain danger with regard to item 2045 and related Sightstone upgrades:

If you make them too good, other roles will pick them up, just because vision is such a HUGE strength in any game with FoW. We've already started to see this trend if you look at the Summer LCS/OGN and Worlds games - junglers like Lee Sin, Nunu, Elise will pick up Sightstone just to get the bonus vision they provide. Now imagine that, but 10x worse due to stronger sightstone upgrades.

Right. It's a clear thing to watch for. Gotta make sure that whatever Sightstone upgrades are made are light on combat stats and heavy on stuff like MS and CDR. Maybe we could explore unique vision mechanics like increased ward placement range, increased MS when moving toward a friendly ward, or increased damage (3hp?) to enemy wards.

I'm pretty sure that many junglers are already supposed to buy at least item 2049.

Knight Devout2 votes

or-you can tie the purchase of sightstone upgrade to a support item gold. Not the item itself, that amount of gold you earn with the item and showed in the tooltip-

Teridax684 votes

Is it really a bad thing if non-supports start warding as much as supports? Even now, when everyone has access to free vision, supports are still often treated like ward mules, and don't have the ability to lay down vision across the map on their own (nor should they). Vision is meant to be a team game, so wouldn't other players committing more to that effort be something worth having?

AbodyHUN6661 votes

No, because vision is very snowbally. If a team gets ahead they can ward the enemy jungle and pick enemies off, make better rotations and trap enemy teams.

Teridax681 votes

But, at the same time, the losing team can still easily buy wards (they're not expensive) and sweepers and clear their own jungle, or at least reach equal amounts of vision relative to the winning team. Vision used to be super-snowbally because there was no cap on how much vision and anti-vision you could have, but now that there is, the winning team can't deploy unlimited wards (and pink wards can be taken down by anyone). I don't think vision is perfect, but it's capped in such a way now that even if the whole team invested in vision, they wouldn't be able to overrun their opponent's vision completely.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

I think sweepers are a bit too limited to check all those areas with a double sights enemy team. Limiting the usefulness of multiple sightstones might work though.

Rubber Jesus1 votes

There's a certain danger with regard to item 2045 and related Sightstone upgrades:

If you make them too good, other roles will pick them up, just because vision is such a HUGE strength in any game with FoW. We've already started to see this trend if you look at the Summer LCS/OGN and Worlds games - junglers like Lee Sin, Nunu, Elise will pick up Sightstone just to get the bonus vision they provide. Now imagine that, but 10x worse due to stronger sightstone upgrades.

I think there needs to be an option to add the wards from Sightstone to GP/10 items. For instance, Ancient Coin can have an extra upgrade option (or at any time during the game through it's upgrades) to gain 3 wards that refresh at base for 300 gold. This can be further upgraded to 5 wards for an additional 200 gold (so 100g per ward). This way, wards can be purchased earlier, for cheaper, and can really impact supports who do not need the extra health.

Chortle5 votes

Mobi boots were core on every support in season 2 and most of them for season 3.

Ah (only seriously started playing towards the end of S3) so perhaps this is another area that can be explored. Make other boot options more viable for supports instead of a "core" item 3117. Increase the number of MS items geared towards supports instead of pigeonholing boot choices.

I think utility item 2045 upgrades could increase the itemization, playstyles, and strategies for supports without being seen attractive enough for other non-support champions to buy.

ex: -For every ward YOU have placed on the map, gain x movement speed. -Regular wards grant true sight for 5 seconds before returning back to normal vision. -When destroyed, your ward releases an aoe slow from around it.

junglerboy166 votes

I totally agree about the lack of item diversity for supports. It is also very true that it feels great as a jungle main getting so much choice in how to build my first item, and I really wish they would add this to support items. It almost seems like giving all the tier 2 gp10 items enchantments like jungle items would be the simplest thing to do and could fix some issues.

@Riot, having generalized items with an enchantment for a final upgrade works really well in a lot of situations, like boots, jungle items, and in this case, probably gp10 items. I am wholeheartedly in favor of using this system for items that are appropriate to this system, it makes the items feel like you are not locked into a decision so much (similar to how you streamlined armor and mr build pathing). This wouldn't fit for every situation though, which is where items like BF sword, Giants belt, NLR, and similar items fit in with their build upgrades.

Basically, if the item in question is one of a set of similar items that are almost universally built by either everyone (boots) or specific classes (machete items, gp10 items) enchantments seem to work perfectly. They allow for a whole lot more strategy in that you can change your mind halfway through an item build as the situation demands without as much of a penalty for having to sell an item.

Pika3104 votes

While we're on the issue, it'd be great if item 3098 Frostfang could get a QoL buff. I'm not saying the nerf to it need be completely undone, but as it stands there's currently no logical reasoning to upgrade other than as a quick stepping stone. Frostfang by itself is a complete loss of gold and just blatantly inferior to item 3096 Medallion. If it could just have it's gold/10 raised up to only 3, it might just become a viable investment again.

Pyro2 votes

Take a look at pro scene. Ancient Coin is pretty much never picked.

Frostfang could maybe use a buff to AP, from 10 to 15-20, but that could call for a nerf to the Tribute procs - the +15 damage proc stacks up to +45 on any DoT. Try support Brand with that item and see how his passive chunks people.

Medallion has hald the mana regen (25%) of Frostfang (which has 50%). All Medallion has is health regen and +10 MS.

Pika3105 votes

I am referring to the pro scene. The supports that bought Frostfang and held on to it, on average fell behind those that sat on Spellthief's, solely due to the 500 gold investment never being able to return its cost. Frostfang is a noobtrap that sets supports behind unless they upgrade it fully to FQC.

Pay attention to what the commentators, they payed close attention to this particular comparison and pointed out this statistic whence the trend became apparently solid.

Pyro1 votes

I've watched most of the today's games, but didn't listen to the commentary all the time. You make a good point.

Do you think nerfing Spellthief (Tribute proc down to 5?) and buffing Frostfang to 20 AP would be a good idea?

Pika3103 votes

The problem with giving supports better access to higher AP items, traditional supports were given low scalings in the pre-S4 changes and thus won't benefit that greatly. Contrarily, that could inadvertently attract yet more mid-lane mages that do have the scalings that can benefit. Annie and Morgana are still fresh in everyone's minds.

Perhaps mage supports could use another utility-based item that instead of high AP, granted some sort of on-hit damage buff similar to the Spellthief's line. Ardent Censer is in a lack-luster place at the moment, let's take it for example giving it an additional passive like: "Your attacks and spells against enemy champions deal nth more damage. This effect can only apply once per 10 seconds against each target."

Or some other out-of-the-box type of idea.

Ad Astra per Asp3 votes

I agree with the premise if not necessarily the implementation. I think for tanks you should let them have a path to choose armor, magic resist, hp or health regen based on how the game is going and team comps. I think for mages you should let them pick things to help their magic pen, ability power, cooldown or mana regen. I think for utility supports there should be choices involving cooldown, hp + mana regen or active items. I think they should be good enough that soraka could choose the tank tree, the utility tree, or the mage tree depending what path she wants to go for the match and her personal preferences. And I think this should be a factor for both sightstone and the gp5 item rather than ever having enchantments so you could mix and match. All junglers start with their machete and all supports start with their gp5. Supports need sightstone so they'd have a 2nd must buy but it should be gold equivalent to the jungler completing their enchantment, imo. I do agree mana regen and cdr seem wasted stats alot of the time in support buying options after the first item.

Pyro2 votes

I think for tanks you should let them have a path to choose armor, magic resist, hp or health regen based on how the game is going and team comps.

Riot's directive in design here was as follows: you build health in lane (Doran items, current Sightstone), then adapt with resists in the second item if necessary (you can also get resists in runes). Problem is, supports' second item is Sightstone, which presents no upgrade choices at all.

Even as it is, it's easy to itemize for MR as a tank - you simply rush Locket right after FotM and Sightstone (health is a good anti-burst protection as well). For health regen, you can build Bracer into Righteous Glory (pre-4.20 FotM regen was higher, though).

Mages don't really choose between AP, CDR and mana regen, and that's an issue that concerns midlane mages as well. They get all 3 in one item (Athene's/Morellonomicon). Archangel's Staff is balanced around its obscene lategame synergy with Rod of Ages. and overall feels lackluster on many mages who would rather get immediately effective items and emphasize their midgame power spike instead of delaying their power surge to the lategame like the RoA users do.

Anyways, in this project you'd choose between CDR and for example MS in the first item - and, what's more important, between the actives.

As for magic penetration, it's fine at the moment. Liandry's Torment allows the likes of Zyra, Karma and Brand to deal absurd amounts of damage.

I think they should be good enough that soraka could choose the tank tree, the utility tree, or the mage tree depending what path she wants to go for the match and her personal preferences.

Relic Shield line is designed for melee champions, Spellthief's is for ranged mages. There is no purpose for making the tank line work on Soraka or mage line work on Leona.

Also, keep in mind that building health on Soraka isn't very effective. Your heals cost a % of health, so you won't get more of them - it's better to build AP, CDR, mana regen and resists.

Supports need sightstone so they'd have a 2nd must buy but it should be gold equivalent to the jungler completing their enchantment, imo.

That was exactly my idea, but it creates a problem to be solved: how do we stop everyone from buying a Sightstone, if its stats are gold efficient?

I do agree mana regen and cdr seem wasted stats alot of the time in support buying options after the first item.

This problem is complicated. The huge regen on Mikaels allows to solve the mana problem without having to complete the GP10 item line. Pretty much nobody in competitive scene picks Ancient Coin for laning (LCS/OGN), because they can get away with having no mana regen on this item and Spellthief's Edge provides superior harass and gold generation. Also it's worth noting that with changes to mana regen the effective regen from the gp10 items got nerfed in lane.

Daedalus8711 votes

I don't think you need to worry about everyone buying sightstone if the stats are gold efficient.

ADC's won't buy it because they don't have room for it in their build. Mids won't buy it for a similar reason.

So you only really have to worry about Top and Jungler. And if they are a damage oriented jungler or top (Kha, Fiddlestick, Yi, Fiora, etc), they won't be able to buy it because it doesn't give damage. So that leaves tanks as the only top and junglers that would really buy it.

Rock Rockburgh1 votes

Which is, in a way, a great thing. If tanks suddenly start wanting to build more vision, they'll actually have a reason to exist.

Daedalus8711 votes

Yeah. Ecspecially considering that tanks are basically supports without a forced build path.

Linna Excel3 votes

Didn't read the whole thing but the basic premise of not enough paths for supports is one I agree with. Stat wise, RSS is underwhelming. I hate the support only items in part because I don't like most of the upgrades and would prefer holding on to the teir 2 item and getting other stuff instead.

I don't think riot particularly likes or knows what to do with supports, but know they kind of forced supporting into the game based on the number of gold sources.

I still think that the sightstone should be a trinket upgrade and not a support item, but no one seems to care about that.

Remlap12233 votes

Zeke's needs to be reworked into an AD support item. I think that an AD support could be a cool niche that is somewhat filled by Gangplank, but solely for the reason that he can't go anywhere else (the Blitzcrank problem.) Plus in Smite, while Guan Yu isn't a designated support, and more of a fighter, he has a heal and a slow, and really all you need to do to get a character to support well is to be able to peel or tank for your carry and give them buffs/healing. I'd like to see some changes to possibly open up some more interesting support builds (and get flamed less for playing Gangplank support.)

Hetchy3 votes

Why are reds ignoring this?

ALL this focus on jungle, almost nothing on supports, who are usually stuck with the same lame items game after game.

LordOfTheLeague2 votes

You forget that tanks support are tanks so they can build any tank item and there are a lot of tank items. Same thing for non tanky champs, most of them are AP champs and can build AP items.

Pyro3 votes

Sure, tank supports can build tank items. But only after 20-30 mintues of completing the unchangeable core. In many of your Braum/Leona games the game will end right after you complete half of your build and you won't complete any tank item. Maybe Locket.

What mage supports often do is get the mandatory Sightstone and leave Frostfang unfinished, and then with a 1600g of "I'm Done Buying Support Items" starter pack they are 10 minutes late to beginning their midlane build - be that Zhonyas (Morgana) or Liandrys (Zyra, Brand). Again - mage support have choice in mage items, but no choice in sightstone/gp10 items. There is an artificial choice: "Complete this item or deem it so bad that you'd rather leave it halfway through".

And then there are support supports, who buy Mikaels and THEN whatever they want If they're good enough with managing active items, they can go "full support" and get Locket/Twins. There is a choice - but only after you spend 3800g on gp10, sightstone and mobi bots. And that's counting Mikael's as a choice (hah).

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

Well support can't have as much gold as laners because they don't cs. That being said your topic is talking about how to give more items to the support role when the problem you present is how to have more gold as the support or how to balance support items compared to the must have items.

Pyro3 votes

I've never said supports need more gold gain (as it is, they have a bit more than junglers, actually). I've said they need choices in the currently mandatory set-in-stone part of their build to greate gameplay decisions.

Onegarion1 votes

What you are describing tho is a core which many champions have. A typical core for mages is Rabadons/void staff. How many mages don't get those 2 items? Tanks will usually build either Randuins or Sunfire and SV or Banshees. Tons of options there too right?

Just because its core to supports doesn't make it bad. Also you aren't making a fair assumption. Not all mage supports build that way or should. When you look at most mid laners how much real variation is really there? Very little. Each role has their same trade off and core items. You get either X or Y and always get A,B,C. Its how EVERY ROLE is. Its not just support. Just because these items are used on all supports doesn't make them bad.

Season 3 had EVERY support building philo and locket without a doubt. There was no diversity at all. It all came down to how the champions kit fit into the team and how good the player was. Now we actually have these items geared to specific supports. To me thats adding diversity. So Preseason 4 was the supports and this preseason its the junglers.

While I'm not trying to say that supports are perfect the way they are. I'm honestly starting to find it very taxing to be a support main since you are so heavily reliant on your teammates to perform. I rarely lose lane unless I'm on tilt, but that means nothing when my teammates are caught out, out of position, or don't focus on winning. Don't take this as "I deserve higher than I am" because its not that. Its a simple complaint of how the support role is even though I love supporting. A support can carry a game with sick hooks, catches, and well placed wards with a competent team, but they are useless with an unskilled team. Its just not a role that you can carry from consistently.

This is where my biggest complaint for supports come in. Recently played adc and carried the game going something like 16/6/14. Why? Because I was in a role that I could take charge and actually tear through people. I had a team that could peel and an enemy that didn't focus me. I was 1v1ing a trist as cait (yea bad trist right?). YOu can't do this as a support. They are in the middle ground of there for utility, but suppose to do other things too. It is like you said that many supports don't reach a normal mid game under normal circumstances (assuming no hyper fed cases). I do agree that they need a better transition.

An idea I just thought of was what if we changed a specific mastery gated at around 16 points that allowed players to build support only items which can be buffed versions of what we have now. YOu place it deep enough so that mainly supports will get it since idk how many mid/adc/tank go 16+ into the support tree of masteries. Could be a decent way to gate it for supports only and still get that transition into late game.

Pyro2 votes

What you are describing tho is a core which many champions have. A typical core for mages is Rabadons/void staff. How many mages don't get those 2 items? Tanks will usually build either Randuins or Sunfire and SV or Banshees. Tons of options there too right?

Neither tanks nor mages have to start with those items. They can build them in lategame, when the situation calls for it. And yes, many mages build without Deathcap, both RoA-Seraph ones like Kassadin and the likes of Brand/Rumble.

Just because its core to supports doesn't make it bad. Also you aren't making a fair assumption. Not all mage supports build that way or should. When you look at most mid laners how much real variation is really there? Very little. Each role has their same trade off and core items. You get either X or Y and always get A,B,C. Its how EVERY ROLE is. Its not just support. Just because these items are used on all supports doesn't make them bad.

Here's a comparison with mid lane: you start with dorans, then on many mages - not all, but many - and then you are presented with a choice. Yes, in most cases you get A, B and C (season 4: Athenes, Deathcap, Void Staff), but you can change the order of those items according to the situation. Orianna mid against Zed? You can start with Zhonya's. Lissandra mid vs Ahri? You can try DFG to nuke her with ult combo.

Season 3 had EVERY support building philo and locket without a doubt. There was no diversity at all. It all came down to how the champions kit fit into the team and how good the player was. Now we actually have these items geared to specific supports. To me thats adding diversity. So Preseason 4 was the supports and this preseason its the junglers.

This preseason is about junglers, yes. I'm not calling for immediate changes to support itemization - those things take time, after all. But hoping for followup changes mid-season isn't out of place - last year, we've had the introduction of Forbidden Idol, Aether Wisp and changes to Aegis of the Legion build path (which was kinda painful before that). These changes were needed and I've actually called for those before they happened. I was very wrong on more than half of the things I talked about. But I was right on aq few ones, too. My suggested solutions are probably wrong. But I think I've assessed the problem correctly.

About support-only masteries: Going deep into Utility isn't a support-only thing, it's actually one of the best ways to approach the new jungle. The third health pot can do wonders.

Quepha2 votes

supports seriously have a ton of item options already. the only real problem i have with them is that talisman's active is miles better than the other two and face of the mountain is miles worse.

BADxW0LF3 votes

To say that they have a ton of item options already gives me the impression that you don't necessarily play support all that often. While the introduction of gold income items last season was a godsend for supports, they are limited in what they are able to actually give to the support when it comes to stats. As a support early game, yes, these items give me exactly what I need to earn enough for my mid game. However, after that, there are only a few specific items for a few specific champs that you can get. As a support, you don't want to focus on doing damage all that much (depending on which champ you take, I guess), but more on the actual supporting of your allies.

One thing that I would like to propose to Riot is more items that come with a "healing" buff. item 3504 was a great introduction to that, but I think it's time to introduce more items that give a similar "on heal effect". Take Nami's passive for instance. Any time she hits an ally with one of her abilities, they get a slight MS increase. Putting abilities like this on more items would give more choices to the healers of the game and bring them more deciding power in the game. Ardent Censer is crucial on certain champs, like Soraka and Sona, but I feel that this is just the beginning of what they could do with "on heal effect" items.

LastSeraph2 votes

Major thing that stood out to me here is the idea of limiting the team's number of sightstones and potentially forcing the support to buy wards because the jungler takes it -- this is a very bad idea. The entire point behind the sightstone was to prevent the support from being a ward bitch -- that is, someone who only buys GP10, boots, and wards. Doing this would shove supports back into that place, except now they could only take 3 green wards and 1 pink at any given time. That means they have to return to base more, lose more EXP, and lose more gold than they currently do having to refresh their sightstone, which holds 4 or 5 wards at any given time. It also increases the effectiveness of forms of vision that allow for the removal of wards -- especially the smite bonus from raptors -- possibly to a scary place for supports in teams where the jungler goes sightstone and leaves them without one.

My counter proposal -- merge the support items with the sightstone. Tier 1 gives basic stats and a trinket ward, tier 2 upgrades ward time to normal, gives an additional ward, and improved gold generation, tier 3 allows for diverse enchantment ala jungler item and max ward stock (3). This also puts the support in a position where they have to make a real choice in their trinket and not just switch to sweeper once they get their sightstone. Do you go for the additional ward from the warding totem to extend the time you can spend on the rift, or the counter vision from sweeper to deny enemy vision?

The Swede2 votes

As a support-in-training, more item diversity would be great! It would also tie in to the season theme (strategic diversity).

Orisi2 votes

To those wondering about everybody being able to buy a sightstone, there's plenty of precedent for an item being locked to one per team (i.e. the new jungle items). 99% of the time only a support grabs ss anyway, with the only exception generally being Lee Sin.

And let's face it, he can take the nerf.

CoolKnightST2 votes

Even supports could get some upgrades. The existing concept is perfectly ballanced right now and it's really difficult to say it will remain this way if you start changing the income items again. Both item 3401 item 3069 item 3092 are equaly buyed in solo Q what's actualy really impressive.

Take away the cdr for poke supports feels like risky. It's often the higher the cdr the higher the peeling. Supports that lack on it somethimes buy item 3165 get buyed soon after. The item 3108 can always not be ignored for a poke support. Most poke supports out their will already buy cdr in their runes Morgana Sona to decrease the risk they won't get their cdr in time. If they entirely depend on finishing item 3165 whe might see less diversity in those builds.

According to the wikia. Their is already a spell vamp for supports under development. That item could be the first option that can use in it's build path so it keeps his additional stats.

Whe just can't ignore the cdr for supports but I can agrea the concept arround cdr is indeed a bit overloaded. I just feel if you remove the cdr from the income item whe will see no diversity in the runes anymore. Every support will want that cdr in their runes. A lot of supports will go for 9/0/21 for that 10% cdr and a lot of supports will lose their power because of this.

What I was thinking about. Why don't whe shift the cdr to the item 2049 ? Every support will have to buy this anyway and shifting the cdr to their might solve a part of the problems. The only downside about this change is that it will further increase the powerspike from tank supports early on. And the cdr powerspike will verry similar.

Daedalus8712 votes

I think you bring up a lot of good points, as I feel like I am sort of forced into a similar build every game as a support. I don't agree with all of your suggested changes (most of them regarding sightstone having reduced effect for multiple people). But overall, I think you have some interesting ideas that should get the ball rolling on how to make support itemization diverse.

metaworldpeace102 votes

This is a really good post. The Support changes that were rolled out last pre-season were great changes and pushed the support role in a solid direction. I feel most of these points, if implemented, will further solidify the itemization and diversity of the support role.

Wolfeur1 votes

I'm quite comfortable with most support-oriented items (mikael, censer,...) but I do think GP/10 and (mostly) Sightstone could use an overhaul.

Pyro1 votes

Censer has a laughably low pick rate due to Crucible domination.

Ale non è male2 votes

Censer has a laughably low pick rate due to Crucible domination.

No, it has a laughably low pick rate because it gives too little AP to be viable despite its passive. Censer and Crucible have different stats(one give MR, one AP) and they could easily co-exist, the true problem is that Censer passive isn't really all that powerful and rely a lot on your ADC being a strong AA and capable to keep AAing for the full duration of it, and at the same time you don't get enough stats to be useful on your own cause you don't build tankiness nor damage through it, and you probably die without being able to help your ADC to keep him alive and using Censer passive too

Right now, Censer can just be a laaaaaaaate game replacement for boots(even after swapping your gold item for a better item) if your champ does a lot of heal and shield and can yet get enough tankiness on the other 5 items, it is basically the Zephyr of the supports

Rubber Jesus1 votes

Wow. Great post. I hope Riot sees this and I hope they reply. This types of interactions would definitely make the support role more engaging and interesting. I'd love to see these ideas. The mana restores are little OP number wise, but the idea behind them is awesome! These changes might even make people WANT to play support.

Riot, hire this man. You need more people like this for creativity in meaningful choices.

Edit: I think maybe that keeping the Sightstone option the way is it, but add a ward option for an upgrade (at any time) to GP/10 items. For instance, you can upgrade you ancient coin for 300g for 3 wards (or 400g for 4, etc.) at the beginning of the game. This helps prevent early ganks and the reduced cost is from the lack of health. This will keep Sightstone on junglers, with the health option it has now, and allow supports that do not need the health to be the most efficient about getting wards. This upgrade would prevent other players from upgrading to wards so cheaply because it is only available on GP/10 items.

I definitely agree that the support items need to have more diversity and meaningful impact in a game. Reworking them in the same fashion as the jungle items would bring more to the table and help you respond more effectively to different situations in each game.

Pyro2 votes

Wow. Great post. I hope Riot sees this and I hope they reply.

There's too much for them to make one good satisfying reply to.

Riot, hire this man. You need more people like this for creativity in meaningful choices.

I don't think they hire newbie game design engineers, they only get people with experience.

Rubber Jesus1 votes

Wow. Great post. I hope Riot sees this and I hope they reply.

There's too much for them to make one good satisfying reply to.

Riot, hire this man. You need more people like this for creativity in meaningful choices.

I don't think they hire newbie game design engineers, they only get people with experience.

It was just a compliment. :) But they could definitely use people with ideas like this to implement in internal testing, and to tweak to fit the game. I'm surprised they hadn't come up with some of these ideas when they worked on support items before. They definitely need some love and diversity to make meaningful impacts in the game.

Arenvalde1 votes

From http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ErBAgdEY-how-to-fix-the-support-item-issues

Step 1: Create 4 tier 2 sightstone items, like this:

http://i.imgur.com/Nml7X4A.png http://i.imgur.com/QXc3e4t.png http://i.imgur.com/7J0bqjm.png http://i.imgur.com/pEYaCrf.png

Step 2: Have sightstone build into an enchant on the support gold items instead of using questionable choices like item 3108 or item 3114

http://i.imgur.com/z4q7T5E.png

And voila, supports get their choice of TWELVE (3 items x 4 enchants) core items! They get to start customizing their build path, not just after gp10 item, sightstone, and boots, but they get to customize their build before they even get sightstone!

Hell, you could even let jungle items or tier 2 items like item 3135, item 3035, and item 3075 upgrade with sight enchants and let everyone play the vision game, which was the main reason for introducing trinkets and sightstone in the first place, wasn't it?

Orchidmaster1 votes

I would love if there was a sight stone with a sweeper active rather that ward placement because after I place my 3 wards I'm forced to back if I see them get cleared or they die. When ever I play any other role and buy the upgraded vision totem I end up placing more wards than my teams support without needing to back. I feel like if there was a sweeper effect on an item. It would feel a lot less clunky than the sightstones do.

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