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How do we solve the CDR disparity between ADCs and mages?

Pyro··116 votes·7,267 views

"So, how do we help Caster ADCS?"

"What's the problem with them?"

"Everybody rushes IE or BotRK. And caster ADCS want neither AS nor crit"

"Then let's make them want crit"

"That's so troll dude"

#a few champion and item reworks later...

item 3508 item 3078 burst for dayz and free 40% CDR, lol

item 3165 item 3174 too bad I don't deal damage with this

That's about it. Mages used to be balanced around getting 5% CDR from masteries and 5-15% from runes, capping at 40% with just one CDR item (and optionally a blue buff). This was the point of midgame power of Ahri, TF, Lux, LeBlanc, Orianna - all of which have dropped in winrate since 5.22.

This is why right now we're seeing the emergence of mages who aren't so dependant on CDR, especially DoT mages like Anivia, Brand, Malzahar. They've always been sitting at high winrate and low pick rate, just their items haven't changed that much.

"But it's just 5% CDR, and you can still get it from masteries" - Previously, getting CDR occured at no cost. Currently, you have to give up on Precision, which is quite important for most AP assassins, and actually stronger than % mpen from the mastery in the Ferocity tree.

#Solution A: 30% CDR Items

"Fight broken with broken". The DotA style.

How to introduce 30% CDR without having it feel overpowered? The answer is a Black Market Brawlers item, Lost Chapter.

http://i.imgur.com/EKDG2qh.png Lost Chapter

  • Recipe: item 3108 Fiendish Codex + item 3114 Forbidden Idol + 650g (total cost: 2000g)
  • +40 AP, +100% mana regen
  • Passive: +20% CDR

What's the point of this item, if it's not even that gold-efficient? Well, it happens to consolidate the Unique Passives of Codex and Idol into one item - and opens up the possibility of getting to 30% CDR only once it's assembled. With Morellonomicon, you can get your 20% CDR from just the components - with Lost Chapter in play, we can force a sizeable gold expenditure before opening up the possibility of getting the second Codex/Idol. It's also a perfect building block for all CDR items:

  • Lost Chapter + Chalice of Harmony = Athene's
  • Lost Chapter + Blasting Wand = Morellonomicon
  • Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex = 30% CDR Item A
  • Lost Chapter + Forbidden Idol = 30% CDR Item B
  • Lost Chapter + Aether Wisp = Another 20% CDR Item

That's the genral idea, the execution is another matter entirely. What I had in mind was mostly using the drafts of Black Market Brawlers items.

Rite of Ruin

  • Recipe: Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + 400g (total cost: 3200g)
  • +80 AP, +100% mana regen, +30% CDR
  • Passive: Gains charges upon moving or killing enemies, up to 300 charges. Attacking structures expends 50 charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus damage.

The first 30% CDR option. Much like the current Morellonomicon, its active does not necessarily help you in 1v1 combat in the mid lane.

Pox Arcana

  • Recipe: Lost Chapter + Forbidden Idol + 650g (total cost: 3200g)
  • +60 AP, +150% mana regen, +30% CDR
  • Passive: Applies a stack of Pox for 10 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times.
  • Active: Deals 100 magic damage plus 20 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60 second cooldown.

The second 30% CDR option. Focused around the DPS and higher mana sustain. Kinda low on the AP side.

Netherstride Grimoire

  • Recipe: Lost Chapter + Aether Wisp + 350g (total cost: 3200g)
  • +80 AP, +100% mana regen, +5% movement speed, +20% CDR
  • Passive: Gain 15% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage.

Tool for sticking (melee) or kiting (ranged). Paired with Lichbane grants you insane MS in combat and nears full CDR.

Staff of Flowing Water

  • Recipe: Chalice of Harmony + Aether Wisp + 150g (total cost: 2000g)
  • +40 AP, +25 magic resistance, +50% mana regen, +5% movement speed
  • Passive - Mana Font: Restores 2% of your missing mana every 5 seconds.
  • Passive: Gain 30% movement speed and 10 mp5 while in the river.

To be fair, this one could have been a componenet as well.

#Solution B: The Lichbane Clause

There's one particular subset of mages who won't have trouble getting to the CDR cap, and that is Lichbane-using assassins. With the tweak to Sheen, Lichbane became even more slot-efficient with 10% CDR on it. Mages like Twisted Fate can get to 40% with just Morellonomicon, Lichbane and a blue buff, optionally ensuring 100% uptime with runes. It's rare to see both Morellonomicon and Lichbane on one champions, but still it's a possibility.

The solution here would be to take this example and build upon it, simply by adding another 10% CDR to another commonly purchased item, preferrably something that Lichabne chanpions wouldn't use - be that Liandry's Torment, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Abyssal Scepter, or a new item entirely.

#Solution C: Rune Revamp

Probably a simple buff to CDR runes, allowing to get 10% right away or 20% scaling, instead of 7.5% and 15% respectively. Simple as that. This woul dmake up for the loss of 5% CDR from masteries, and allow to round up the CDR from runes in general.

#Solution D?

If you have any better ideas, feel free to express them.

122 Comments

SoMNia21 votes

Another 20% CDR item that doesn't force mages to double dip on mana regen would be fine, really. Some version of the Netherstride Grimoir as a mage version of Phage could be ideal.

Nekusen5 votes

{quoted}

Another 20% CDR item that doesn't force mages to double dip on mana regen would be fine, really. Some version of the Netherstride Grimoir as a mage version of Phage could be ideal.

also this, as a support or champ that uses item 3040 or item 3027 , etc. having to buy item 3165 or item 3174 feels like a waste

SoMNia7 votes

I haven't seen much need for the latter two on caster supports this season. Buffs to their base regen have a multiplicative effect on bonus regen items, so even small bonuses provide a lot of mana, and many of their items have CDR already.

item 3092 item 3069 item 3060 item 3050 item 3158 All good options. Even item 3100 can be good if the game lasts long enough. item 3504 is a bit of a niche item, but it can be useful, too.

peachplumpear4 votes

A 20% CDR item without a mana-related stat would be considerably better on no-cost mages than it would be on anyone else, which is why current CDR items are mostly tied to mana with the exception of WotA, which is basically only useful on Vlad anyways.

KingKong23502 votes

the return of katarina

SoMNia1 votes

And Archangel's Staff is best on champions that have mana. Why do champions who build that or Rod of Ages (or both) have to spend more gold on mana regen in order to get CDR when they've already spent gold to solve their mana problems? Athene's Unholy Grail and Morellonomicon are best on champions who have mana, too, and that isn't considered a problem.

peachplumpear1 votes

Why do champions who build that or Rod of Ages (or both) have to spend more gold on mana regen in order to get CDR when they've already spent gold to solve their mana problems?

Presumably if they really needed the CDR they would have either taken runes to get it or they would have built an Athene's first item. But they didn't. Because it's a trade-off.

Athene's Unholy Grail and Morellonomicon are best on champions who have mana, too, and that isn't considered a problem.

Yes...because it's really gold inefficient on champions that don't have mana, specifically because they have to be gated by CDR rather than resources. If champions that had no costs could easily reach the CDR cap, they'd have to be rebalanced because they are currently balanced around either not getting the CDR cap or sacrificing a lot of stats for it.

SoMNia1 votes

It takes a lot of runes to get a significant amount of CDR, and everyone has that option. That's hardly an answer. Champions who opt for regen over flat mana don't have to make any tradeoffs when building CDR.

And that's really not convincing, considering how easily resourceless AD champs can get CDR. Who's balanced around not having it? Katarina? She's balanced around not needing it.

Nashor's Tooth exists. Why not one more non-regen medium AP/20% CDR item?

peachplumpear1 votes

It takes a lot of runes to get a significant amount of CDR, and everyone has that option.

Utilize it then. It' 6 runes to get 10% scaling CDR/5% flat or 9 to get 15% scaling/7.5% flat. It's not a good option on everyone and if it is a good option you should consider it.

Champions who opt for regen over flat mana don't have to make any tradeoffs when building CDR.

Both Seraph's and Rod of Ages give more AP than Morellonomicon and Athene's, while giving more survivability as well, so that's not true at all. They are trading survivability and damage for CDR and mana regen, much like you're trading CDR for Survivability and damage.

And that's really not convincing, considering how easily resourceless AD champs can get CDR.

Essence Reaver, Death's Dance, Black Cleaver, Trinity Force, Youmuu's Ghostblade, Warrior's Enchantment if you're in the jungle. Only one of those items by itself gives more than 10% CDR. Essence Reaver is overtuned and being addressed, but is not useful on champions like Talon and Pantheon and Jarvan IV and Jayce since they don't do much with crit, and Talon and Jayce and Pantheon would LOVE some more CDR. In fact Jayce loves it so much he takes Ionian Boots instead of Tabi or Merc Treads. Trinity Force is only useful on champions who auto-attack often and have low cooldown spells. Death's Dance is ok but it's not all that useful on most champions compared to a Bloodthirster, but is a viable option. Black Cleaver has a comparatively low amount of damage on it compared to other AD items. All of those items are also more than 3000g.

Only some Marksmen can really get 40% CDR without heavily investing into either defense or sacrificing runes/masteries for it, but only those that can afford to get an Essence Reaver over a different item.

I mean what resourceless AD champs are there that want AD and CDR? Aatrox maybe? But he wants tank items as well so outside of Black Cleaver he can't devote a lot of his budget to AD and CDR. Yasuo? He doesn't care about CDR because his spells already have low cooldowns. Tryndamere? He doesn't give two craps about CDR. I guess Rengar?

Who's balanced around not having it? Katarina? She's balanced around not needing it.

Katarina and Vlad as manaless; Brand, Kassadin, Lux, Orianna, Veigar, Ziggs, and Zilean are all balanced around not being able to reach the 40%/45% CDR cap without large investments into CDR vs. other avenues. Vlad takes CDR runes because CDR is super important on him. Katarina would LOVE a CDR item that gives AP and doesn't give wasted stats on her.

Energy champs are balanced around the fact that they would run out of energy if they built CDR. Resourceless AD champs tend to be melee so most of them have to build defenses, so they can get the CDR cap but in which case they aren't getting any offensive stats on those items.

Nashor's Tooth exists. Why not one more non-regen medium AP/20% CDR item?

Nashor's Tooth has a large part of its cost devoted purely to attack speed and the on-hit effect.

I still don't understand; if your RoA/Seraph's champions need CDR that much then why aren't you building a chalice item on them instead of the Seraph's or taking CDR runes? I mean you're acting like RoA champs aren't doing well right now? Anivia is #3 winrate for mid lane, Swain is #5, Malzahar is #6, Morgana is #9, Cho'Gath is #11, and Karthus is #13.

Brand is #1 and doesn't build any CDR or Mana Regen. Kayle is #2 and only because Guinsoo's is overtuned.

I mean the way to fix the CDR disparity between them is to nerf AD CDR items, because really those are what's broken. AP champions are already balanced in regards to CDR.

SoMNia1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Peach Plum Pair,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O2Ev19LJ,comment-id=000e00010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-19T15:23:04.218+0000)

Utilize it then. It' 6 runes to get 10% scaling CDR/5% flat or 9 to get 15% scaling/7.5% flat. It's not a good option on everyone and if it is a good option you should consider it.

Like I said, it takes a lot of runes. Lots of people used to use 6 flat CDR blues and masteries for 10-15% CDR at level 1, but one of those masteries no longer gives CDR, and there's no way anyone can afford space on their rune page to make up the difference. The remaining CDR mastery is only slightly more accessible than it was before, which makes 10% at level 1 that much harder to obtain.

Both Seraph's and Rod of Ages give more AP than Morellonomicon and Athene's, while giving more survivability as well, so that's not true at all. They are trading survivability and damage for CDR and mana regen, much like you're trading CDR for Survivability and damage.

That would only be true if everything in a build with Seraph's/RoA provided the absolute maximum AP possible. But supposing I accept that sacrificing damage for CDR is an appropriate tradeoff, that's not the same as being forced to spend gold on useless or redundant stats.

Essence Reaver is overtuned and being addressed, but is not useful on champions like Talon and Pantheon and Jarvan IV and Jayce since they don't do much with crit

What? It's not like that's a rule. It's only because they didn't have a compelling reason to do so. Now, they do. But that's not necessary. Black Cleaver, Ghostblade, and Death's Dance provide a lot of penetration as well as physical spell vamp. As for ER "being addressed", I'm curious about what that means, because I haven't seen any statement to that effect, and as far as I know, there are no such changes pending for 5.23. I do agree that it's a bit on the strong side, but not overmuch. Some people still don't seem to know it exists, and heedlessly rush Infinity Edge anyway.

Black Cleaver has a comparatively low amount of damage on it compared to other AD items.

Not really. When it comes to AD, 65 is the new 80, which puts Black Cleaver only 10 behind most items, and it also gives arguably the best armor penetration in the game (now that LW has been nerfed), depending on how bursty you want your kills and how squishy your targets are.

All of those items are also more than 3000g.

So is almost every completed item. All of those give CDR in their build path before they are completed. A Black Cleaver and a Warhammer is 30%.

Only some Marksmen can really get 40% CDR without heavily investing into either defense or sacrificing runes/masteries for it, but only those that can afford to get an Essence Reaver over a different item.

Considering that maximizing damage consistently involves both Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver, that's probably almost all of them, at some point.

I mean what resourceless AD champs are there that want AD and CDR? Aatrox maybe? But he wants tank items as well so outside of Black Cleaver he can't devote a lot of his budget to AD and CDR. Yasuo? He doesn't care about CDR because his spells already have low cooldowns. Tryndamere? He doesn't give two craps about CDR. I guess Rengar?

Aatrox can get CDR from tank items. Tryndamere definitely wants CDR for frequent dashes and maximum uptime on his ult. Riven wants maximum CDR in every game, if she can get it.

Katarina would LOVE a CDR item that gives AP and doesn't give wasted stats on her.

That doesn't explain why she shouldn't have it. You keep asserting that resourceless champs are balanced around not having CDR, but I'm not seeing any evidence of this. She is balanced around not needing max CDR, like I said. Getting it wouldn't break her. Twin Shadows was an option, and that's gone, now.

Energy champs are balanced around the fact that they would run out of energy if they built CDR.

So let them. Akali is already an example of this, being able to dump her energy into E. It's not a problem.

Nashor's Tooth has a large part of its cost devoted purely to attack speed and the on-hit effect.

Yes, it does. So? Similar things could be said of Morellonomicon. What's wrong with another option? Why are those stats acceptable to bundle with CDR, but not another — say, movement speed or MR (there was talk of an MR item for mages to replace Abyssal Scepter, since it was changed to a tank item, but that change hasn't gone through yet)? I mentioned that Twin Shadows is gone now. That only granted 10%, but it was an option.

I still don't understand; if your RoA/Seraph's champions need CDR that much then why aren't you building a chalice item on them instead of the Seraph's or taking CDR runes?

The reason to build Archangel's Staff is always the same: you want AP and a large mana pool. Bonus mana lets you stay out longer between backs and last longer in individual encounters. Regen allows you to simply wait between fights rather than backing every time you're low. Their purposes are different.

I mean you're acting like RoA champs aren't doing well right now? Anivia is #3 winrate for mid lane, Swain is #5, Malzahar is #6, Morgana is #9, Cho'Gath is #11, and Karthus is #13.

Winrates are polluted with irrelevant variables. You know that. And RoA did just get a significant buff. But this isn't about winrates. It's about playstyles and choices.

Brand is #1 and doesn't build any CDR or Mana Regen. Kayle is #2 and only because Guinsoo's is overtuned.

Rageblade is overtuned, yes, and Deathfire Touch makes Brand's harass broken because of his passive. These cases haven't much to do with anything being discussed here, as far as I can tell.

I mean the way to fix the CDR disparity between them is to nerf AD CDR items, because really those are what's broken. AP champions are already balanced in regards to CDR.

That doesn't follow. How did you decide that? Especially given that they've lost options, and the shakedown of preseason changes is still ongoing?

RavenMagus1 votes

Agreed. I hate the fact that CDR items for mages are tied so heavily to mana.

I feel like if I want to build a tear, I have to accept that I can't possibly build CDR under any condition - because of the four CDR items out there, two of them are heavy mana regen items (which are made much less desirable if I have a tear), and the other two are much more situational and only give 10% each anyways (Lichbane, WOTA).

Add that to the Lucidity nerf and the reduced access to CDR from masteries...

I guess I could build support items instead, and accept that I'm not going to have a high damage build if I want CDR? But why do AD champions get to have both?

Valderis Vandala8 votes

"How do we solve the CDR disparity between ADCs and mages?"

Aren't you comparing apples and oranges? ADC's have always been about their auto attacks, mana reneration and cooldowns have never really been their domain. Just because they got a fancy update that makes the game more interesting and gives them a little more diversity so that future ADC's can be created with cooldown items and such in mind doesn't mean that all of a sudden Mages got the shaft. Mages have been doing pretty well with what they already have and they'll continue to do just fine.

That's not to say you shouldn't be poking Riot for a fancy Mage update, I just don't see any disparity.

EDIT: Also realize that Mages have a different power balance in their kit in relation to cooldown reduction then ADC's.

DrCyanide20 votes

The point the OP is trying to make is that 40% CDR isn't a very reachable goal for Mages right now, much less the 45% CDR they dangle in front of our faces with the new masteries.

You have your mana regen item (Athene's or Morrellonomicon), then you can sacrifice magic pen boots for the CDR boots. After that, the conventional mages only option is to buy Will of the Ancients. All of these are second class items in terms of AP, a stat which does not grow with level.

Contrast this to the AD itemization. The new Essence Reaver is comparable to a Morrellonomicon, as both serve as a damage oriented mana regen item. However, Essence Reaver's stats get better as the game goes on and you buy other items. Complete your Trinity Force, another high damage item that many AD Casters enjoy, and your at 40% CDR without sacrificing boots or damage items. You actually get to the 40% CDR when the Trinity Force is only 2/3 complete.

That's the problem people are pointing out, that Mages don't have a high-damage follow-up item build to get the CDR they want, they need to sacrifice a fair amount of damage to get it.

Valderis Vandala9 votes

That's exactly my point, different classes different rules.

Mages have their power in their abilities so cooldown affects them differently in terms of power balance so their items force them to choose between damage though ability points, magic penatration or cooldown.

ADC's have their power in their auto attacks, less so in their abilities. Which has somewhat changed now, cooldown has become part of their repertoire but they have to give up an item for it. Instead of Essence Reaver you could have gone for something that gives something other then just cooldown and mana (beside the standart crit and damage). It gives them more diversity in build options.

I'm not sure you can just do the same for mages, cooldown has a big influence on their overall power but its also linked to mana use (mages can't rely on there auto attacks once they run out like adc's) and they share their items with non-mana casters, their situation is more complex.

DrCyanide16 votes

Instead of Essence Reaver you could have gone for something that gives something other then just cooldown and mana (beside the standart crit and damage).

What else is there for an AD Caster?

Note that we're not comparing ADC's (champions that rely primarily on auto attacks) to Mages, we're comparing AD Casters (champions that rely primarily on spells) to Mages (champions that rely primarily on spells). The primary difference between these two classes is that AD Casters can fall back on their Auto Attacks, while Mages can't. So how does it make sense that the class that can get more CDR without trading damage to get it also has the better fallback damage mechanic?

peachplumpear1 votes

There aren't any good mana regen options for AD casters except maybe Manamune, but that seems undertuned in the preseason since you're going to go out of mana quickly with all this CDR. Essence Reaver requires you to crit to restore mana and it restores no mana at all if you aren't auto-attacking.

Essence Reaver doesn't give enough CDR to reach cap unless you build a second crit item: the attack speed items are sub-optimal on AD Casters because they wouldn't be giving any useful stats besides the crit-to-CDR conversion, Infinity Edge gives nothing besides the passive for the upgrade cost, and Trinity Force is only useful on a couple of the AD Casters (Ez/Corki come to mind). So you're either overpaying for the crit for slot efficiency (Infinity Edge), wasting a slot to reach max efficiency on Essence Reaver (Cloak of Agility), buying wasted stats (any of the ASPD-crit items), or already have a lot of synergy with items (Trinity Force).

AD Casters also scale pretty poorly into the lategame considering you get less AD than AP, armor penetration was nerfed, and they don't build as much crit as traditional marksmen (meaning they are trading a midgame powerspike for a lategame powerspike). But the lategame scaling is super screwed up right now so that might also be a problem.

I'll agree that Essence Reaver is too good right now, which is why they are looking at nerfing it soon according to the preseason Q&A. But the answer isn't to make it easier for mages to get 40% CDR (because it's pretty easy with runes/masteries).

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Instead, they get an item that gives them AP for having AP.

DrCyanide2 votes

item 3089 is the equivalent of item 3031 , both of which magnify your damage output. The difference is that Infinity Edge gives you AD, gives you an increased chance to modify that damage, and then increases that modification value.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Except that doesn't mean a thing for AD casters who rely on abilities, of which IE doesn't apply.

It is also far less reliable than item 3089 given it gives a flat consistent powerspike while IE gives a random one. But that is ok, because it is designed for auto attack base champions, not Casters.

Like the other person said, apples and oranges.

Mimaropa1 votes

IE still gives ridiculous AD and you forgot that there are champions that have crit scaling now(ex: MF, yas and etc.). MF and graves Ult does too much damage and also have good sustained damage. Casters only depend on their spells and cc so by missing all of them and go on cooldown you're practically worthless.

peachplumpear2 votes

"Ridiculous AD"

Nerfed from 80 to 65.

Kuroi861 votes

You have your mana regen item (Athene's or Morrellonomicon), then you can sacrifice magic pen boots for the CDR boots.

Why not grab both? item 3165 80 AP 20% CDR 100% base mana regen plus it's passive. item 3174 60 AP 20% CDR 100% base mana regen plus two passives for returning mana. Never have a mana problem again, then tack on the additional 5% from masteries and you can be whipping spells pretty fast.

Dealth2 votes

THANK YOU for understanding this. The people who post on these forums know nothing about game design and balance. They all want Riot to make a "perfect item" that every single mage will get on every single game. Sounds fun and diverse right.

Valderis Vandala2 votes

XD

They can want all they want but some things just aren't possible. At least Riot seems to know what they are doing. But it can be fun to see the boards flip out over every little change, "oh no some armor items got 10 points less armor now! rabble rabble rabble", meanwhile nothing much changed at all. Honestly I'm surprised people haven't complained about all the damage nerfs on marksman items yet, instead they complain that mages are terrible now, figure that one out. sigh

peachplumpear1 votes

I don't understand why you got downvoted. This is exactly right and the devs even said so in their preseason Q&A.

Valderis Vandala2 votes

Meh, because opinions, its fine people express what they like.

What I don't understand is why my little post down this threat asking for more information was downvoted. I wasn't saying anything in that one. XD

NemeBro6 votes

{quoted}

That's about it. Mages used to be balanced around getting 5% CDR from masteries and 5-15% from runes, capping at 40% with just one CDR item (and optionally a blue buff). This was the point of midgame power of Ahri, TF, Lux, LeBlanc, Orianna - all of which have dropped in winrate since 5.22.

LeBlanc and especially Twisted Fate's win rates have gone up as of the latest patch. The others win rates only went down by a half percent at worst, and excuse me if I'm not exactly crying over Lux "only" having a 54.57% win rate in mid lane right now. =(

Ahri still has nearly a 53% win rate mid, and TF has one of over 53% in mid.

ADCs have easier access to CDR because the stat is more powerful on mages than it is on ADCs.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

A 30% CDR item is a decent idea.

BUT PLEASE GOD DON'T RELEASE ANOTHER BMB ITEM INTO THE RIFT!

The weakest unique item in that mode was item 3742 It's very powerful on Rift.

Plz no more

Halo5 votes

Weakest my ass, the weakest was that damm hurricane item that sure enough gave you more atkspeed now and then but the damage reduction made it pretty sht.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

True. Second weakest, then.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I thought the weakest was the Staff of Flowing Water. Less AP than Athene's, less MR than Crucible, less regen than both, all for a passive that only works in two small areas of the map.

Helios Ex5 votes

I still don't know why item 3157 doesn't give 10% CDR... it's an hourglass. it keeps time. it could easily be given the CDR. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Helmight4 votes

The problem with adding CDR to other, commonly-built mage items is that they become easily exploitable by manaless champions. Usually, CDR is included on items that give mana or mana regen as a deterrent for manaless champs.

So, I think option A is probably our best bet. Having a basic CDR item that upgrades into all of the other mage CDR items is a good idea that lets mages pick and choose what they want going into the midgame.

Dengeden4 votes

Right, because Trinity - Reaver is just as inexpensive as two 20% CDR AP items.

It's strange isn't it, how pretty much every mage goes for 20%-ish CDR and then does something to amplify their damage. It's almost like 40% CDR isn't an absolute necessity. Audible gasp.

In fact, 40% CDR that early in the game puts pressure on you to abuse it fully. When your role requires you to burst someone down, that's usually a bad idea. (Unlike ADCs who are only required to provide consistent damage)

Anu3isII4 votes

  1. The OP mentioned the fact that Trinity and Reaver have a good synergy. In exchange , these two 20% CDR AP items offer you too much mana regen and a barely decent amount of AP. It isn't the difference of cost the problem , it is the amount of gold wasted for nothing.

  2. Not every mage needs even any amount of CDR. But there are mages that don't scale only with damage... The best examples are Lux , Karma , Lulu ,Twisted Fate and many more. Damage is powerful for Assassins and Burst-Mages, but Utility/CC Mages will prefer to use their powers as much as possible. Utility in general scales only with CDR , and a few categories of it scale with AP too ( Shields , Heals and damage Buffs ). Magic penetration will never be totally useful in their kits , spell vamp isn't good if you don't tank the damage , HIGH amounts of AP will not make your utility spells a lot more powerful.

  3. That is actually the opposite effect. CDR is a stat that mages buy for better skirmishes , allowing them to do several combos in much quicker successions. So it allows you to use your mana as much as possible in fights. Also , from many points of view , CDR doesn't force you , it ALLOWS you to use spells more often. Many mages have only one CC spell , and if they use it to engage on somebody , they will most probably be defenseless , and are forced to play safe until it comes back off-cooldown.

  4. Your role doesn't FORCE you to do ANYTHING. Again , there are mages who have only PURE damage , and mages that have UTILITY. The only target any player has is to find a way to abuse your champions power. LeBlanc , kill that one guy! Orianna , ult their whole team! Lulu, protect our team! Twisted Fate , catch people off-guard! Veigar , stack AP and kill them later! Mages can all be: Assassins , Fighters , AoE-Monsters , CC-bots and Supports. They all are different , but they have only one purpose... To win the game!

  5. This thread isn't about asking for something "new" , it is about giving back options! Before this patch , the masteries could offer you 5% CDR right at the start of the offensive page. The only CDR option they added is deep in the cunning tree , and it doesn't feel rewarding enough to be there until you get the 45% CDR cap ( or better said 40% runes and items ). Besides this problem , they also made Lucidity Boots give from 15% CDR( originally ) only 10% CDR( currently) . Before you could take one of those 20% CDR items , Lucidity boots , the 5% CDR mastery and bam... 40% CDR... the cost of this was actually the fact that you didn't buy Sorcerer's Shoes , so you wouldn't have Magic Pen , which was an OK trade off if you aren't a ball of pure damage. Now you are either forced to fill your whole Rune page with CDR runes if you want full CDR in early-mid game , or buy a second 20% CDR item ( which is cost ineffective) , or find a 10% CDR item that works with your champion ( most of them are situational items).

Again , this not an attack to ADC's , AD casters or anything. It is just the problem that an build path option has been removed , making players have less choices in terms of items.

Tactical Salad2 votes

Beautiful. The thought and passion going into that post was insane.

Anu3isII1 votes

Thank you! I think I went a little crazy when I wrote it ( but I can't say it is a bad thing ) xD

Tactical Salad1 votes

Not a bad thing at all xD it was well thought out. I only feel bad for you because your not getting almost any for. Of recognition from the art that you've created xD

Anu3isII1 votes

Awww ... You make me blush! But I kinda want to hug you for your kindness :3

Tactical Salad1 votes

Awww, thanks x3 now you're making me blush. I just try to spread some kindness into the boards when I see it is deserved. Helps make it a better place, even if only one person at a time.

CoolKnightST3 votes

I personaly prefer a item 3508 concept better. An item that gives 10% cdr & up to 30% (10% cdr for every 100 bonus ap from other sources) in total. Mages are all about scaling so it will fit's them perfectly. Something like item 3114 + item 1058.

Pyro5 votes

AP is a primary stat. Scaling it from AP would be like scaling CDR off AD. It would need to get CDR from something like mana, or just stack it on kills/levels/time.

GigglingAngel4 votes

{quoted}

AP is a primary stat. Scaling it from AP would be like scaling CDR off AD. It would need to get CDR from something like mana, or just stack it on kills/levels/time.

Crit is basically a primary stat for all ADCs.

J Eevo6 votes

It's not on AD casters though, and regardless, crit doesn't increase the damage of skills that benefit from CDR

Nekusen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O2Ev19LJ,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-17T23:29:10.243+0000)

It's not on AD casters though, and regardless, crit doesn't increase the damage of skills that benefit from CDR

some AD skills can proc crits

67019198_DEL2 votes

Funny how the Black Market items were way more fun than any other items.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Threason DoT mages are Ryzing and Control mages are falling is simple:

1.The meta no longer revolves arounf Juggernauts, so Zone mages fell off.

2.DeathFire Touch synergizes best (might I say REALLY WELL) with DoT mages over any other and people are still stuck in this mentality where they need to put all their points in offense, even tho Cunning is OP.

CDR had nothing to do with it. If it did, all this would happened a LONG time ago.

Nunya Bezwacks2 votes

I stopped caring when you bitched about cdr on assassins who all have low cooldowns and need no cdr or have resets which is free 100% cdr for doing their job.

7ha7guy7771 votes

Why does no one like double morellonomicon? Is it because with sorc shoes, void staff, and deathcap as required items you only get one slot for utility? If cdr is about 30g per 1%, ap is 21g per 20, and mana regen is 150g per 50%, then the mana regen is 300g, ap is 1740, cdr is 600g and the GW passive is undefined. You get 2600 gold in stats for 2550 gold. Is the big issue what you give up for the cdr and not how easy it is to get?

Kitten of Evil3 votes

I think the issue is slot efficiency and delaying the other items you really do need: on a DoT mage, you need Liandry's and Sorc Boots. Against an assassin or AD champ, you need Zhonya's. As a mana-spamming champion you need Archangels. You're slowing down your power curve and (in the case of RoA or AA, crippling your late game) by picking up more CDR, AP, and essentially nothing else.

But also, you can calculate mana regen that way (though it's inaccurate now-- at new prices, it should be 125g for 25% mana regen item 1004 ), but it's not a stat like any other. AD, AP, and virtually all other stats will linearly increase some attribute of your champion. It makes sense to calculate their gold efficiency linearly. But mana regen, after a point, is worthless because you no longer need any more. It has diminishing marginal returns after a certain point (~150% mana regen, but also later in the game when your base regen is higher).

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