I would like the tank jungle item to be rethought.

Kowe The Ewok·Dec 29, 2014·5 votes·1,017 views

Let's face it. It's just bad. It doesn't scale well into lategame. It does neither provide gold, nor wards like the old one did. The tenacity sound nice on paper, yet Mercs have become a must buy anyways after the MR nerfs. It's a midtier item with by far not enough power to justify an early purchase. It doesn't even help you to overcome the worsened jungle sustain.

In my eyes Riot should consider scrapping Juggernaut and sit down on a round table to create one that's actually useful for tanks.

8 Comments

TerchioDec 29, 20143 votes

Tenacity shouldn't be a tank item, anyways. If the enemy is trying to CC the tank, they deserve to lose. It's flawed to its core, yet people long for the days of the old Spirit of the Ancient Golem... I never figured out why. It makes little sense, even on bruisers who tend to thrive the most with it.

Ridley PrimeDec 30, 20144 votes

I think the point of tenacity on tanks is to encourage them to initiate (and take counter-CC or peel) or take CC for the team.

But this post is too real. Merc Treads are the best boots for tank junglers. Tabi are much less useful in the jungle than in lane, where you're actually going to be taking autoattacks from enemy champions.

A thornmail-esque passive or a version of Gromp's buff, where the damage was dependent on your max health and the duration on your armor/MR seems like a better idea to me. One that applies the debuff to hostile spells as well as autoattacks (so you can apply it to dragon).

I'd also be all for a health/mana regen component, or the 10% health increase to make it scale better than some of the other items.

Red enchant scales with AD (thanks armor pen), blue enchant scales with hitting your spells (thanks extra cdr), purple enchant scales with more attack speed and killing more monsters.

I guess you could argue for the green enchant scaling with enemy level ups (their cc getting longer durations), but if you're basing your scaling on enemy stats, you could argue the red enchant gets worse as the enemy gets more armor on level-up.

TerchioDec 30, 20142 votes

Mercs are hardly necessary on junglers. Tabi might not get the autoattack passive off of monsters, but Mercs won't get the CC, nor will they get hit by any magic damage in the jungle, whereas at least the armor will come in handy there. Other choices might also be prominent, like Zerks for jungle clear/cheapness, Sorcerer's for the MPen clear(Jungle passive is magic damage, afterall...), Swiftness for the speed, or Mobility for power-ganks. Also, junglers are nearly exclusively melee now, meaning they also almost exclusively get the +24 MR at lvl 18 anyways. If you do need more, you can grab another 27 off of MR/lvl glyphs, or you can grab an item like Banshee's Veil, Spirit Visage, Guardian Angel, Wit's End, Maw of Malmortius, or really just grab a standalone null-magic mantle to get what you need early. Hardly have to spend 1200 on that general waste of a boot choice just for the MR.

Sire HippingtonDec 29, 20143 votes

can't put walrus there, will flaw any statistics, how is anybody supposed to resist it?

anyway, the old ancient golem was in it's core the perfect tank-jungle item, it could have used some number buffs to the damage it did to monsters and maybe the sustain, but the ward helped alot and 25% bonus health scaled well into late. And most of all, the damage to monsters kinda scaled since it was %health(just a bit to weak overall)

The big problem with tank-jungleitems by default: It doesn't improve youre cleartimes, as it'S tank stats It doesn't really increase sustain(aggresive jungleitems increase your clear speed and thus decrease the overall damage you take from each camp It doesn't help alot for ganks if you don't go for a dive(and even then killing the enemy faster is probably better than tanking 1-2 more shots)

so just by beeing a tank item, it does provide little that helps jungleing. Therefore, a tank-jungleitem needs a stronger passive vs junglemonsters compared to the other jungleitems. Damage to mosnters either based on %health would provide scaleing damage for good clears even later on changeing the health/mana regain on jungleitems to %values would also help tanks some more. I'm also not against a increase of the %missing health/mana gain from big creeps. It still wouldn't keep you healthy enough to easy gank in the early rounds(less early ganks is the best thing this new jungle has done so far), but it would help to atleast clear some small camps.

Done25Dec 30, 20143 votes

It SHOULD give you armor. Do tank junglers want HP? No, they want armor so that their sustain matters more. They want to reduce that (10-2=)8 damage down to (6-2=)4

junglerboy16Dec 30, 20142 votes

Juggernaut needs to be divided into two items: the pure tank item like reworked SotAG was, and the fighter item, like SotAG was early in season 4. The tank version has to have health, armor, (move speed of some sort possibly?) and a health multiplier (that was the best thing to happen to tanks last season, and it shouldn't have changed). The fighter version should have lower health (300-350), tenacity, and CDR. They made the mistake again of combining the two when they need to be separate. that way, fighters have a more useable tanky option, and tanks have more choice about whether they want to scale hard or be early game power gankers.

JamenerDec 30, 20141 votes

While I do agree with you all that our current tank item is lacking, I just want to point out what this item does well:

1)Some tank junglers like Nautilus and Sejuani do scale off of HP so it works decent on them. 2)The CDR absolutely helps every tank.

I'm not really sure that the argument against tenacity stands. If you are an initiator, the enemy team will always be tempted to CC you in order to prevent that initiation. If you removed the tenacity from the item, they would hesitate a lot less.

I would love to see some resistances or, even better, regeneration bonuses added to the item. Health in the early game does not make you very tanky and it's too easy to beat a jungle tank coming out of his jungle. It's not good when the enemy laner can just turn around and kill the tank after the he successfully lands his CC because he doesn't have any resistances and he came out of the jungle with half health. As a jungle tank, you're forced to choose between ganking and jungling--not both--because your sustain and clear speed isn't high enough whereas aggressive junglers like Lee Sin and Pantheon don't have to make that choice. This severely limits your gold generation and exp gain if you don't make successful ganks.

ManwadDec 30, 20141 votes

What if it gave movespeed with a bit of armour and MR but like 100 less HP? Or maybe a Deathcap-like passive for future armour and MR items. With a bit of movespeed.

That'd fit the description of a juggernaught, someone who can't be stopped.