"Why can tanks do damage to me without building damage items?" - ADC mains

FalconPawwwwnch·Apr 27, 2015·172 votes·20,116 views

Well why do you expect to survive anything without building any defensive items?

Lol Salty ADC mains can't rightclick to win 1v5 like they used to in season2,3,4, oh the horror

Your role, has been the most important role in the game for 4 years.

Your role is so overpowered that a team that doesn't run you automatically loses.

Your early games are so broken that even "weak early game" ranged ADs like vayne can vs "early game" melees like Garen and still shit on them because they're ADCs

What's sad is that you guys actually believe you deserve to be that overpowered, and when asked why you say "well because they're ADCs!" and when other roles kill you like assassins and they say "well they should because they're assassins" you still claim nerfs.

Lol what a joke of a playerbase, your double standards defy all logic

192 Comments

M SchumacherApr 27, 201521 votes

ADC Mains will always cry about being killed and NEVER build a single defensive item because of greed.

They're the whiniest role in the game and the reason everything gets nerfed.

LunaEqualsLunaApr 27, 201520 votes

I told an ADC whiner to build a defensive item... his response was, ADC's dont have space for a defensive item.

TheTyeGuyApr 27, 20151 votes

There was once a game where I was so useless in teamfights, and the enemy team was almost all AD AA based, so I sold my boots and bought a Thornmail on top of a Randuins I bought earlier. I had IE, BT, LW, Rand, TM, and PD by the end of the game, and I did not die once after buying them.

DrogmyreApr 27, 20157 votes

{quoted}

There was once a game where I was so useless in teamfights, and the enemy team was almost all AD AA based, so I sold my boots and bought a Thornmail on top of a Randuins I bought earlier. I had IE, BT, LW, Rand, TM, and PD by the end of the game, and I did not die once after buying them.

Gee, it's almost like buying different items based on the enemy team's composition is a good idea, and cookie cutter builds aren't always best!

hmmmmmmmmmm.

disregardableApr 27, 201519 votes

That's kind of the problem. They CAN do damage with only 1 offensive item, but we CAN'T survive a 1v1 with only 1 defensive item.

FalconPawwwwnchApr 27, 201574 votes

And they can't really tank meaningfully once you have Last Whisper either

Sythriel DrakenApr 27, 20157 votes

They still have Cinderhulk and usually warmogs. LW only ignores 35% of their 60-75% armor and unless you also factor in BORK, they are still tanking very effectively..

WoonStruckApr 27, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sythriel Draken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-27T06:33:10.700+0000)

They still have Cinderhulk and usually warmogs. LW only ignores 35% of their 60-75% armor and unless you also factor in BORK, they are still tanking very effectively..

"Only" It lets you deal 10% more damage, not considering any other items or AD you have, in the worst-case scenarios.

Lucian, Jinx, Graves, etc, don't seem to have a problem dealing damage.

Damage isn't ADCs' problem.

Its not getting engaged on when Riot insists on giving every new champ for the last 2 years a way to hard engage.

disregardableApr 27, 20159 votes

The whole point of the complaint is that they can...If you ignore 35% of 230 armor, you're left with 150 armor. Sounds like a big drop, right? But it isn't. It's literally just going from blocking 72% of damage to blocking 58% of damage.

Tis a nice dayApr 27, 201549 votes

Theorycrafting here. Going from blocking 99% damage to 98% damage looks like a pitiful 1% on paper, but it actually means receiving twice as much damage as before.

Going from 72% blocking to 58% blocking is: ((100%-58%)/(100%-72%)) - 100% = 150% - 100% = 50% increased damage taken.

CrettApr 27, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tis a nice day,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-04-27T07:24:37.632+0000)

Theorycrafting here. Going from blocking 99% damage to 98% damage looks like a pitiful 1% on paper, but it actually means receiving twice as much damage as before.

Going from 72% blocking to 58% blocking is: ((100%-58%)/(100%-72%)) - 100% = 150% - 100% = 50% increased damage taken.

Exactly. The reason armor scalings aren't truly diminishing is that the more damage reduction you have, the more valuable the next percent is. There is a gigantic difference between 98% and 99%.

The SoulforgedApr 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. The reason armor scalings aren't truly diminishing is that the more damage reduction you have, the more valuable the next percent is. There is a gigantic difference between 98% and 99%.

Armor and MR actually scale perfectly linear. Each point gives you 1% more effective health for that type of dmg.

ShinjusukeApr 27, 201516 votes

Tanks are not supposed to "Tank Effectively" vs ADCs, that's the whole point of the "Protect the ADC/focus the enemy ADC" teamfight strategy, because once they're dead theres not really anyone to stop your take from giving the finger to the rest of their team.

Tanks counter Assassins (Mages to lesser extent) Assassins counter Mages (ADCs to lesser extent) Mages counter ADCs ADCs counter Tanks.

This is how the game has been designed since literally the start of the game. You see tanks complain about "OMG The ADC does too much damage to me, I'm a tank I should be able to ignore everyone!" and they don't realize that's the entire value of an ADC in a teamfight, because they're the only class than can both apply the consistent damage needed to drop a tank, can itemize anti-tank offensive items, and isn't heavily constrained by cooldowns.

Complaining about ADCs killing Tanks is like complaining about assassins killing mages, or mages killing ADCs, or Tanks killing Assassins. It simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

EDIT: Simplification for the slow of mind and short of temper:

Burst damage counters Sustained Damage. Sustained Damage counters Tankiness Tankiness counters Burst Damage.

Which translates in to the same classes I listed, and the same scenarios, and still explains why ADCs are supposed to be able to kill Tanks. Jesus people, it's rock-paper-scissors, it's not hard to understand.

DemiluniSApr 27, 20157 votes

how exactly mages counter ad carries again ? your entire statement is so wrong. dps is good against tanks, burst is good against squshies, that all that matters.

TheRainInSpainApr 27, 20154 votes

The main reason a lot of mages counter ADC's (or any squishy non-spellcasters) is that they either one shot the ADC from beyond his ability to auto attack and lifesteal back, or they combo him to death. Virtually all ADC's I see also refuse to build Mercurial Scimitar or Maw of Malmortius until they have 5+ deaths in a row from an AP mage or assassin, and by then it's too late.

BluePolarizerApr 27, 201510 votes

Assassins don't really counter mages as hard as they counter ADCs. Take a mage like Malzahar/Vel'Koz/Brand. They're actually pretty tanky with the MPen build item 3157 item 3116 item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 item 3165 and have huge safety from their CC, range and Zhonya's. Even with the Mpen build they still get 500+ AP.

JefftiffyApr 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

And they can't really tank meaningfully once you have Last Whisper either

Yea sure let's just forget about Maokai Alistar Shen Volibear Sejuani Chogath Garen Leona Sion Rammus

Oh would you look at how many tanks put out a ton of damage while building nothing but tank and also hurt people who hit them if they build a thornmail. (Thornmail literally eats ADCs alive).

I'm sorry that you don't know how to properly build a tank and forget about how many tanks have damage reductions of defense amps that make them virtually unkillable to the point where they can dive squishies and give 0 fucks how many people are in their way unless they eat all the CC, which in that case their job is done. They ate the damage and the CC for their team.

Tanks have been not viable for a long time due to issues with how toxic they are to play against. At least with the ADC you catch them with one or 2 CCs and its enough to let you kill them or get away. Tanks literally don't care and actually put out more than an ADC in a fight when played correctly. Now this isn't to say tanks should be weak, but when you have no way to counter armor pen with your build (aka with hp pool) that doesn't involved leaving yourself open to giant chunks of hp lost to % hps it makes the tank role extremely hard to balance. This game needs HP regen as well as anti hp regen to put a new layer into counter building and counter play.

Only Play DariusApr 27, 201537 votes

ADC's can kill everything on the map with ease. In exchange, their only weakness is that they can't 1v1.

Stop crying.

Knight SoIaire Apr 27, 20158 votes

well i think that it changed hard

adc's get to be rather good at bursting other squishies (it comes to 3 maybe 4 autos) but they hgot much worse at their intended field which is killing tanks

adc is a specific role that should counter defensive itemization aka tanks

but they became more of simple damage dealer, they still have the last whisper, but with tanks power increased its not as effective, so their main field gets to be busting the enemy squishies (if they wont get blown up)

i dont feel for adc's crying (most of them was so full of themselves ... despite their support carrying their ass) but i think that we have a problem with roles in this game

we had asasins who were removing other squishies too reliably, now we have assasin who cant kill a squish (nerfs) we had tanks unable to survive 3 seconds in a teamfight and now we have adc's who cant kill tanks, but do great at bursting other squishies

AbyssphereApr 27, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2015-04-27T07:51:38.134+0000)

well i think that it changed hard

adc's get to be rather good at bursting other squishies (it comes to 3 maybe 4 autos) but they hgot much worse at their intended field which is killing tanks

adc is a specific role that should counter defensive itemization aka tanks

but they became more of simple damage dealer, they still have the last whisper, but with tanks power increased its not as effective, so their main field gets to be busting the enemy squishies (if they wont get blown up)

i dont feel for adc's crying (most of them was so full of themselves ... despite their support carrying their ass) but i think that we have a problem with roles in this game

we had asasins who were removing other squishies too reliably, now we have assasin who cant kill a squish (nerfs) we had tanks unable to survive 3 seconds in a teamfight and now we have adc's who cant kill tanks, but do great at bursting other squishies

I kind of see what you mean. I saw a Jinx three-shot a Janna in the LCS yesterday and thought "that's basically a burst mage right there". There comes a point where ADCs go from sustained damage to straight up burst.

BeertasterApr 27, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-04-27T06:42:23.237+0000)

ADC's can kill everything on the map with ease. In exchange, their only weakness is that they can't 1v1.

Stop crying.

unless your kalista

LunaEqualsLunaApr 27, 201531 votes

Good thing this isnt a 1v1 game.

SolaxoApr 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Good thing this isnt a 1v1 game.

Irrelevant. Tanks can do damage without items. It's completely unrelated to LoL being a teamwork game

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Apr 27, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Irrelevant. Tanks can do damage without items. It's completely unrelated to LoL being a teamwork game

He was replying to the person who cried about ADC not able to 1v1.

AbyssphereApr 27, 201522 votes

{quoted}

Irrelevant. Tanks can do damage without items. It's completely unrelated to LoL being a teamwork game

No they can't. They just look like they do it because they target people with zero damage mitigation, while being able to mitigate the damage they're taking themselves. In a tank vs ADC 1v1 the tank will only deal a small amount of the damage the ADC does. They can only win the trade by mitigating the ADC's damage enough so that their own damage means more. That's how it should be: defense should be a viable way to win a 1v1, not just offense.

Ariel the CruelApr 27, 20155 votes

In theory, Yes. Riot actually overhauled the defense system back in S3 so this was no longer true [most of the time].

The problem was winning fights by not dieing resulted in the tank meta+. Games took forever; Kog'Maw, Corki, and Vayne were the only viable ADC's; and most fights were just watching slapping contests until everyone ran out of mana and returned to their respective corners. There weren't really a lot of flashy plays [by today's standards].

Riot Wants offense to beat defense. They modified the damage/defense system specifically to ensure this++. You buy defense early game to prevent from becoming irrelevant, but in most cases offensive items are stronger than defensive items come mid-late game.

+We are not currently in a tank meta, contrary to popular QQ. If anything, we're in the Cinderhulk meta (That item is really just stupid strong). Tankier champions are making a comeback, yes. Back in the tank meta, you had 3.5 tanks on each team and a tank shredding ADC.

++Health stacking actually got overlooked when they did this. BotRK and Torment came not too long after.

OperationDEEZ1Apr 27, 20152 votes

"There weren't really a lot of flashy plays" And thus this birthed the Late-S4/Early-S5 Assassin/Lee Sin "LC$BIGPLAY$$$$$" meta.

zane yalgirApr 27, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-27T06:01:42.178+0000)

That's kind of the problem. They CAN do damage with only 1 offensive item, but we CAN'T survive a 1v1 with only 1 defensive item.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/211846831?champion=236 luci primary

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/211846831?champion=22 ashe second pick

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/211846831?champion=51 THE ONE I PICK WHEN I HAVE THE WORST LUCK FOR TeaMTES

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/211846831?champion=104 when ashe and luci for what ever reason cant be pick

your building wrong

item 3252 item 3140 item 3142 learn to use these in tb they help

adcs gratest power is kiting

disregardableApr 27, 20152 votes

I'm pretty sure you die more than I do.

Rinky DinkyApr 27, 201515 votes

I'm 100% sure you are usually trolling when you post

WoonStruckApr 27, 201517 votes

The thing about tanks is that they have to pick two of three stats for the most part: HP, Armor, or Magic Resist. If you mix them all too heavily, you're not really a tank AND have no damage. You pretty much always leave yourself open to one form of damage: Physical, Magic, or True.

As a damage dealer, nothing matters but getting more damage. Once you get your %pen item, it scarcely matters who you target unless they have 4 resist items of your primary damage type, which is rarely viable for anyone in most games.

So basically, once magic damage jungles and double AP are on the rise, the tank meta will fall a bit further down.

Only one source of reliable magic damage (sometimes less) makes tanks extremely strong.

SforcesApr 27, 201512 votes

Better question, why is it, that against a 3-5 ap team, no adc mains build maw or mercial scimitar.

TotalJerkApr 27, 201511 votes

Because they don't believe they should have to adapt their builds to the situation.

TheRainInSpainApr 27, 20151 votes

Pretty much this. If I'm seeing three heavy AP champions or two heavy AP and a hybrid Marksman, after Vamp Scepter, I'm RUSHING Hexdrinker->Maw of Malmortius and then getting a Mercurial Scimitar.

1st HanarSpectreApr 27, 20153 votes

A vamp scepter > maw rush will have get get completely obliterated by the enemy AD in lane. There's a reason carries usually can't afford to diverge build much, and it's simply the fact that they cannot stack enough armor, MR, health and damage to have all of those stats at a decent enough level to actually matter.

RIP ResonanceApr 27, 20159 votes

item 3035 /thread

Salt and VeigarApr 27, 20159 votes

"But if I buy item 3102 how will I afford my 6th item 3086 "

blubabbyApr 27, 20156 votes

High base (sustained) damage + High survivability + Squishy ADC = Dead ADC

ProfDrDeathApr 27, 20155 votes

Fair point.

However, the problem here lies in the fact that a tank can severely damage you without using his abilities or auto-attacks at all if he has Gromp, Thornmail and Cinderhulk.

CrettApr 27, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Fair point.

However, the problem here lies in the fact that a tank can severely damage you without using his abilities or auto-attacks at all if he has Gromp, Thornmail and Cinderhulk.

Most of the damage there is coming from autoattacking the tank, which mid-game, is not what an adc should be doing unless it's a team effort. Lategame, unless the tank in question is Sejuani or Sion, the ADC can do whatever they want there.

IcyPepperApr 27, 20155 votes

Thornmail typically counteracts lifesteal (which is countered by... building more lifesteal, or wit's end if you're ballsy and it's an AP heavy comp).

But yeah, lifesteal is essential late-game. Botrk and bloodthirster make a power duo, especially if you're Vayne or Jinx.

Auz the RipperApr 27, 20156 votes

Kog'maw!

Everyone always forgets about kog and this is the best meta for him His 6% max health and 8% current health (from BotRK) don't apply Thornmail and insure you out-damage them regardless

I have straight up dueled a Rammus with Thornmail and gromp buff as Kog

Colgate GatorApr 27, 20155 votes

Pretty much.

As far as they're concerned, assassins, bruisers and tanks need to be gutted and be unable to do their jobs so they can shine without any doubt. Hell, there was a time when they were whinning about Supports getting too much stuff.

StephenizgodApr 27, 20155 votes

So true, my favorite thing is when they complain they cant kill a tank fast enough when they have Last Whisper... "It took like 8 shots to kill him! wth!?!?! i have LW! I should be 3 shotting him like everything else". It always makes me laugh because the answer they receive is always the same whether its from me or someone else: "IT WAS THE TANK! Its a surprise it took less then 10 shots to kill him".

Kind of funny, when im the Tank it always seems like i dont live very long. The assassin and ADC just erase me, but then they complain in all chat how OP tank i am... so weird.

destiny fanApr 27, 20153 votes

my biggest complain is tanks like shyvana being unstopable high damage machines that thornmail your damage and end up killing you faster

TrylobyteApr 27, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=meMEU0JP,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-04-27T11:20:20.282+0000)

my biggest complain is tanks like shyvana being unstopable high damage machines that thornmail your damage and end up killing you faster

Simple solution as the ADC, don't shoot Shyvana. You have four teammates better equipped to deal with her, especially that guy in the mid-lane with all the fancy magic damage. Just because you're the ADC doesn't mean you have to kill everything by yourself.

cshakesApr 27, 20158 votes

On a side note, don't pick a team that looks like Fiora Zed Lucian Janna , that shit's just asking to be counterbuilt. (Thornmails for everyone!)

Jeddy017Apr 27, 20153 votes

Rammus Ok.

destiny fanApr 28, 20152 votes

that sounds dumb, who is going to kill her before she ends up walking me to death with cinderhulk?

our tank? not enough dps our burst mage// asassin? guess what counters those our support? ... our second tank? or the super dps charged lee sin... oh wait

JasiwelApr 27, 20153 votes

I remember when most people who played ADC regularly recognized that without their team they're screwed, but with their team they will win. I'm beginning to see that resurgence, but we gotta push past the ignorant first.