Can we buff Elise?

Trash MammaI·Apr 9, 2015·79 votes·4,839 views

This is coming from someone who rarely, if ever, plays her and has no intention of playing her much anytime soon, but I do really enjoy the champ and seeing her in action more so than seeing Sej or amumu run wild. Back when elise was popular and was on a pick/ban level I never really understood what made her so oppressing. I would leave her unbanned and be perfectly fine against her. If I got outplayed then I got outplayed if I beat her then I beat her.

Her kit is interesting as well I just love everything about Elise though I don't play her. I don't get why she went downhill so hard I liked playing against her

107 Comments

Synx7Apr 9, 201528 votes

I never really understood what made her so oppressing.

It's because she countered rito's poster boy LeeSin The only champion with the planned nerfs, REVERTED because of community backlash. Community backlash huh? what about Veigar ? Even more ppl were AGAINST the nerfs and riot be like " sorry, these changes are already locked". Because his stuns would stop BigLC$Fla$hyPlay$ and LeeSin . Pure favoritism, nothing else about champion balance. i'm even afraid to buy a skin for one of my main champions( RP price increased but still) , only to be nerfed because a Korean plays him in LCS and wrecks everything. Yeah, talking about favorite champ, varus. Who knows, maybe a korean will pick him and riot will obviously nerf him because you know what? LoL isnt even about skill anymore, its about what champ u play, this is what they're trying to say with the r****** champion balance. So LC$ is not even worth watching anymore , might as well bring a bronze XVII and give Riven in his hand. And about elise again, yeah. After they released her Victorious skin, they literally GUTTED her saying " we'll keep an eye on her" and obviously the next NERF comes after 9 months. I'm tired of this summoner 3 Sorry for the rant

ShinjusukeApr 10, 20152 votes

^ This. SOOOOO many of Riot's jungling fuckups can be traced back to their adamant favoritism (and just-plain-sad fear of fanboys) to Lee Sin.

If your jungler is a threat to Lee Sin, expect it to get dumpstered. Lee Sin is Riot's widdle baby.

P.S. If you ever see, ANYWHERE, a Rioter say "we'll keep an eye on X", it means absolutely nothing. Literally, 100% of the time, absolutely nothing. It never amounts to anything, it's just PR BS we get spat at us because they know what they're doing when they say "we'll keep an eye on X" is bullshit, but they don't wanna acknowledge it.

Synx7Apr 10, 20151 votes

Well, Victorious Elise skin was an insult really. I mean , the skin is very cool. I remember I worked hard to reach Gold V in order to get that skin , only to have her nerfed after 2 months , nerfed to oblivion I mean. And with the new jungle in Season5 , she's almost useless, a burden to your team

mi ramfanApr 9, 20155 votes

The problem with just straight buffing Elise is that when she's actually good, she's good at everything and stamps out variety. Actually, she's very similar to Lee Sin and Jarvan in that regard-all three of those champions just do everything well when they're strong. Her kit's %health damage and her natural synergy with bulky pen items like Abyssal Scepter and Liandry's Torment made her extremely difficult to play against, and she had a tool or two for any situation or team comp she happened to be in.

I agree that she's weak right now and could benefit from a buff, but we have to be very careful about what exactly we buff with her. One incorrect buff to her and she will push too many other champions out of the jungle and have to be nerfed again. The question is, how can we buff her in ways that don't risk pushing out other champions?*

VenowolfApr 10, 20157 votes

Maybe buffing the Magus enhanced in a way that Riot made with the Juggernaut, maybe adding some kind of mana to the Magus enhanced:

Magus Enhanced item 3708 :

New Build Path: item 3706 + item 3057

Stats +60 ability power +10% cooldown reduction +200 mana

Passive UNIQUE - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 75% AP bonus magic damage and turn 10% of the damage dealt in mana. 1.5 second cooldown.

Something like that can put all the ap mages junglers more viables becaus solve his mana problems in some way.

TourianApr 10, 20151 votes

I actually like that a lot. Not all APs can necessarily benefit from the spellblade like Elise, but it would help their clears at the least. I'd worry about what this would do to Diana though. Maybe remove essence traverse and work its passive into Magus?

VenowolfApr 17, 20151 votes

Thanks I aprecciate your honesty.

Essense Reaver passive? well I took my idea from ER passuve to be honest with you :p

AbyssphereApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-04-09T20:15:11.767+0000)

The problem with just straight buffing Elise is that when she's actually good, she's good at everything and stamps out variety. Actually, she's very similar to Lee Sin and Jarvan in that regard-all three of those champions just do everything well when they're strong. Her kit's %health damage and her natural synergy with bulky pen items like Abyssal Scepter and Liandry's Torment made her extremely difficult to play against, and she had a tool or two for any situation or team comp she happened to be in.

I agree that she's weak right now and could benefit from a buff, but we have to be very careful about what exactly we buff with her. One incorrect buff to her and she will push too many other champions out of the jungle and have to be nerfed again. The question is, how can we buff her in ways that don't risk pushing out other champions?*

Not to disagree that we shouldn't buff her in a way that gives her more of a niche, but I would like to point out that being a generalist shouldn't disqualify her from being usable. Riot believe Lee Sin, king of the generalists, is in a good position right now. He's quite a bit stronger than Elise - it makes sense that she could be buffed to his level. Jarvan is continuously solid, Elise could be buffed to his level, etc.

Elise shouldn't be allowed to crowd out other picks but when you look at her power level, it's significantly below what other generalists are allowed to be at. There's room to buff without making her a top pick.

mi ramfanApr 10, 20151 votes

You said it yourself; we already have two other generalist junglers in Lee Sin and Jarvan IV. Why do we need another one in Elise, when we have the opportunity to make her a champion with a unique play pattern?

Most champions in the game have a few clear strengths and weaknesses. Generalist champions like Lee Sin, Jarvan, and Elise really don't. Any champion that is not BAD at anything cannot ever be allowed to be GOOD at anything, or they will immediately choke out all the champions who share the same strength but actually have weaknesses.

At the moment, Elise is the picture of a balanced generalist. She has burst, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bursting people. She has sustained damage, but not as much as champions who are supposed to do sustained damage. She has CC, but not as much as champions who are focused on lockdown. She has bulk, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bulky. She has mobility, but not as much as champions who are meant to be mobile.

For any given thing you might want to pick Elise for except one, there is someone better to play for it. This is not only intended, but balanced. The best situation to pick Elise (or any generalist champion, really) should be when you don't know what your team will need from the jungle position this game. Unfortunately, that means that in any situation where Elise is balanced and your team needs a specific thing from the jungle role, Elise won't be your go to pick.

Basically, the TL;DR takeaway is this:

If you want Elise to gain strengths through buffing, she must also gain weaknesses, thus not being a generalist anymore. If Elise is straight buffed as a generalist without compensating nerfs, she'll push other champions out of the game in whatever category she's buffed in. With that in mind, what strengths do you want Elise to gain, and what weaknesses are you willing to accept for it?

CatSithApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2015-04-10T21:07:10.481+0000)

You said it yourself; we already have two other generalist junglers in Lee Sin and Jarvan IV. Why do we need another one in Elise, when we have the opportunity to make her a champion with a unique play pattern?

Most champions in the game have a few clear strengths and weaknesses. Generalist champions like Lee Sin, Jarvan, and Elise really don't. Any champion that is not BAD at anything cannot ever be allowed to be GOOD at anything, or they will immediately choke out all the champions who share the same strength but actually have weaknesses.

At the moment, Elise is the picture of a balanced generalist. She has burst, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bursting people. She has sustained damage, but not as much as champions who are supposed to do sustained damage. She has CC, but not as much as champions who are focused on lockdown. She has bulk, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bulky. She has mobility, but not as much as champions who are meant to be mobile.

For any given thing you might want to pick Elise for except one, there is someone better to play for it. This is not only intended, but balanced. The best situation to pick Elise (or any generalist champion, really) should be when you don't know what your team will need from the jungle position this game. Unfortunately, that means that in any situation where Elise is balanced and your team needs a specific thing from the jungle role, Elise won't be your go to pick.

Basically, the TL;DR takeaway is this:

If you want Elise to gain strengths through buffing, she must also gain weaknesses, thus not being a generalist anymore. If Elise is straight buffed as a generalist without compensating nerfs, she'll push other champions out of the game in whatever category she's buffed in. With that in mind, what strengths do you want Elise to gain, and what weaknesses are you willing to accept for it?

Lol please dont put elise with j4 and lee sin. Idk why people are putting her under generalist and say she doesnt have any weaknesses but SHE DOES. J4 and lee sin have a safe escape that DOESNT require a ENEMY target. They both are tanky with good aoe damage, their stun/cc is multi target AND also have shields. And they both can over heal and damage her with just 1 item, hydra. Elise on the other hand has single target spells excluding her volatile spider ling, 1 target cc stun and a mobile skill that requires an enemy to even use. Her weakness is being squishy and have 1 esacpe skill that has a long cooldown that requires an enemy target to land. So please stfu about her being a generalist and dont put her with champions like lee sin and J4, get over yourself.

mi ramfanApr 10, 20152 votes

Yes. This is because J4 and Lee Sin have strengths but lack weaknesses. They're overpowered generalists who need to gain weaknesses to compensate for their strengths. But we shouldn't be buffing Elise as a generalist just because other generalists are unbalanced.

Instead, we should give Elise her own unique strengths and weaknesses so she can't be pushed out of the metagame. That will require buffs in some areas and nerfs in others. I would recommend a similar approach for Lee Sin and Jarvan as well. I'm focusing on Elise because this thread is actually about Elise.

CatSithApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=00070001000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-10T22:00:18.664+0000)

Yes. This is because J4 and Lee Sin have strengths but lack weaknesses. They're overpowered generalists who need to gain weaknesses to compensate for their strengths. But we shouldn't be buffing Elise as a generalist just because other generalists are unbalanced.

Instead, we should give Elise her own unique strengths and weaknesses so she can't be pushed out of the metagame. That will require buffs in some areas and nerfs in others. I would recommend a similar approach for Lee Sin and Jarvan as well. I'm focusing on Elise because this thread is actually about Elise.

Can you not read? i already said she isn't a generalist and she does need buffs without nerfs, she has a clear weakness. she had nerfs that wasnt needed that put her in her current state.

mi ramfanApr 10, 20151 votes

I read your post. I just didn't agree with your base assertion that Elise is not a generalist, and your arguments did not persuade me.

What clear weakness are you referring to? If you're talking about her not being overpowered, well, I'd like it to stay that way.

CatSithApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=0007000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-10T22:29:13.393+0000)

I read your post. I just didn't agree with your base assertion that Elise is not a generalist, and your arguments did not persuade me.

What clear weakness are you referring to? If you're talking about her not being overpowered, well, I'd like it to stay that way.

Its not an argument of my opinion, its a fact that is true. Do you even know what a generalist is?

DrNovaApr 19, 20151 votes

Regardless its still wrong, sort of. Just because there already are generalists, doesnt mean she deserves to be garbage. There are many of alot of types of champs. No reason cant have another "generalist" jungle. Making her really poor at everything just because there are some too good at everything is just a stupid rationalization. There is no reason they cant make her playable till her rework, which isnt even anywhere the near future.

AbyssphereApr 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2015-04-10T21:07:10.481+0000)

You said it yourself; we already have two other generalist junglers in Lee Sin and Jarvan IV. Why do we need another one in Elise, when we have the opportunity to make her a champion with a unique play pattern?

Most champions in the game have a few clear strengths and weaknesses. Generalist champions like Lee Sin, Jarvan, and Elise really don't. Any champion that is not BAD at anything cannot ever be allowed to be GOOD at anything, or they will immediately choke out all the champions who share the same strength but actually have weaknesses.

At the moment, Elise is the picture of a balanced generalist. She has burst, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bursting people. She has sustained damage, but not as much as champions who are supposed to do sustained damage. She has CC, but not as much as champions who are focused on lockdown. She has bulk, but not as much as champions who are meant to be bulky. She has mobility, but not as much as champions who are meant to be mobile.

For any given thing you might want to pick Elise for except one, there is someone better to play for it. This is not only intended, but balanced. The best situation to pick Elise (or any generalist champion, really) should be when you don't know what your team will need from the jungle position this game. Unfortunately, that means that in any situation where Elise is balanced and your team needs a specific thing from the jungle role, Elise won't be your go to pick.

Basically, the TL;DR takeaway is this:

If you want Elise to gain strengths through buffing, she must also gain weaknesses, thus not being a generalist anymore. If Elise is straight buffed as a generalist without compensating nerfs, she'll push other champions out of the game in whatever category she's buffed in. With that in mind, what strengths do you want Elise to gain, and what weaknesses are you willing to accept for it?

Maybe you're stuck in the time a few months back when the jungle was nothing but Jarvan, Lee and Vi, but it's a very different place now and only Vi remains a priority pick. Given Jarvan and Lee are both quite a bit stronger than Elise without causing any problems (they really aren't, Lee in particular has never been so unpopular), there is definitely room to buff Elise without her being a problem. That is my main point: It is possible to increase her power level to that of other generalists without making her a priority pick, because the other generalists aren't too good right now either. I think Jarvan is the definition of balanced at the moment, in particular, but Elise is miles behind him.

I do not think Elise being made a specialist is a bad idea, but I'm just pointing out that it is not impossible to buff her without giving her a new weakness. Generalists are allowed to be better than she is right now, that is why I think she deserves a buff. There's no reason to keep her weaker than other generalists that are presently balanced.

As regards a weakness I'd like to give her? I genuinely don't know. I don't think she's as void of weaknesses as people say right now, but her weaknesses largely come down to her kit being a bit messed up as a result of the nerfs (i.e. I think her biggest weakness is that to get her full damage she needs to auto a lot, but she's far too squishy to do so, and that shouldn't be the case because it means her power budget is unevenly distributed). I can't really see anything in her kit that doesn't feel essential to her, but I play her a fair bit so I can't really imagine a tool being taken out of her kit.

AgidyneApr 9, 20153 votes

She was picked the Oceanic Grand Finals winning team today.

Original QuitterApr 9, 20153 votes

She's fine, high skill cap champ. Still gets picked in competitive. Buffing her will just make her the "only" jungler again

HeWolfApr 9, 20151 votes

Maybe buffing is too "one way". Maybe a tweak™ to make her less skilled while reducing her impact would help her be more viable in lower elos rather than diamond+.

meatjunjunApr 9, 20154 votes

So I'm not trying to knock on you, but can I say this mindset is what's bad with this community?

Many people here say Lee/Zed is oppressive because they're a high skill cap champ who, at the highest level, is OP. Yet these two always has a winrate slightly below 50%.

Then you have a jungler in Sejuani who has a consistent 60% winrate AND is easy as hell... yet everyone has a problem with Lee/Zed.

Am I the only one who finds a problem with this?

Why hate on a champ that doesn't win as much because only a handful of players are actually good with them, yet find a noob champ that wins almost every game balanced?

This doesn't make sense to me.

HeWolfApr 9, 20153 votes

To be honest with you, I said that about the Diamond+ because if I didn't say it, instead of your answer, I would have gotten an answer from a Master I Elise Main saying she is perfectly fine and that I don't know how to play her properly.

I see her weak and an identity crisis in her kit. Is her a tank or an assassin or an AP bruiser? She should be changed to clearly draw a picture of her gameplay just as you see her kit.

P.S: I don't think Lee or Zed are OP. Okay, I hate Zed, noone's perfect. P.S.2: Who the hell thinks Sejuani is balanced.

alagoreApr 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So I'm not trying to knock on you, but can I say this mindset is what's bad with this community?

Many people here say Lee/Zed is oppressive because they're a high skill cap champ who, at the highest level, is OP. Yet these two always has a winrate slightly below 50%.

Then you have a jungler in Sejuani who has a consistent 60% winrate AND is easy as hell... yet everyone has a problem with Lee/Zed.

Am I the only one who finds a problem with this?

Why hate on a champ that doesn't win as much because only a handful of players are actually good with them, yet find a noob champ that wins almost every game balanced?

This doesn't make sense to me.

For Zed, it's because he does high damage, while having an extremely safe laning phase, and forces the enemy to play defensive just by existing. For Lee, it's because he was essentially a jungle god for 2 seasons+.

ShinjusukeApr 10, 20152 votes

There's a couple reasons.

1) Sejuani is newly overpowered. She was strong pre-Cinderhulk, but Cinderhulk made her overpowered. She's only recently become a huge problem. Meanwhile, people have been complaining about how Zed is too strong for months, and Lee Sin literally for several years and Riot refuses to touch them purely because they like them.

2) Because Sejuani (and trust me, I friggin' hate Sejuani, but..) isn't nearly so goddamn FUCKING infuriating to die/lose to, because Sejuani doesn't do anything fancy to kill you, she just bursts way too hard and is nigh-unkillable. In Lee/Zed's case, every time you die to them they do it almost instantly and then get away with no punishment regardless of how badly they should've been fucked because their kits let them. One makes you say "sigh, yayyy... unkillable OP tank. Great..", and the other two you have ot sit there and watch build full damage and still suffer NO consequences for going completely ham, and it pisses. people. off. It's sorta like how Cho'gath can 100-0 you, but it's nowhere near as infuriating or feel like as much bullshit as when you get 100-0'd by a Fizz or Leblanc, who take almost no risks whatsoever to do it. If you can't kill the former (sej/cho), it's cuz you don't have the damage. If you can't kill the latter, it's because their kits are horse shit. One gives (even if it's an illusion of) hope, in "I can get more damage", but you can't stop a champions core kit from making them immune to punishment.

3) A lot of people, regardless of rank, think they're gonna be pro one day. Thus, they focus on what's OP at top tier (which, when talking true game balance, isn't really a bad thing).

4) The two listed don't "always have a win-rate slightly below 50%". That's a recent thing. Frequently in the past it's been much higher, Lee Sin especially.

5) Partially people hate Zed/Lee cuz they're sick of seeing them, sick of hearing how "hard" to play (they're not, by the way, as someone who plays both very frequently. Get over yourselves mains) they are, sick of them being immune to real nerfs.. etc etc. A lot of people are just tired of the champs.

LevyathynApr 10, 20151 votes

Sejuani just became OP after recent changes and a long period spent languishing in subpar jungler tier, whereas Zed and Lee Sin, despite being easy to pick up and play with depth to get better at every level of the game, have been at or near the top spot for a while now, and have only been growing in power. And while Sejuani has already been tasting nerfs, and is still being adjusted, neither of those two picks have been or are being considered.

On top of that, you can't really judge winrate as a champion's measured strength or power, something even Riot has stated. The problem is, Zed and Lee Sin are considered dominant and 'freelo', which makes them popular picks among players who don't know how to use them well, or have trouble playing in general, in the hopes of an easier win, which doesn't happen, which skews the numbers. And it's only one of a dozen or so factors that do, easily.

The problem is, there are still a lot of low and medium ELO players who can play Zed and Lee Sin effectively.

shalecApr 9, 201516 votes

She's not fine, at all. Elise is absolutely useless, even in competitive. She was picked ONCE this entire split, and she lost. Elise does nothing currently for any team composition.

Rinky DinkyApr 10, 20151 votes

Uh, she was picked more than once.

I saw her at least 4 times across EU and NA.

I agree she needs some help though.

Her kit is fine, she just lacks any kind of scaling. She has none.

Kuroi86Apr 11, 20151 votes

Wait, what?

How do you mean no scaling?

She gains 3% health damage on both versions of her Q per 100 AP. She's the only champion who's % current and % missing health damage scales up with more than just enemy health. She's also got 80% AP scaling on her Volatile spiderling, if it could actually hit a target, that's a good bit of damage.

I'll admit she could use some buffs to her on hit damage and heal, but otherwise she has some great damage locked in her kit.

SinlaireApr 9, 20152 votes

Elise's problem is that her kit has almost no synergy with itself and her entire kit consists of burst = kill/ run away. If no kill then walk away and burst again later. She also relies on Isolation practically even more than Khazix does because at least khazix has enough maneuverability and utility to allow him to get through a team fight, even if it's spent on the fringe, more so than Elise who has her caccoon and target based Repel.

in short. Her skills have strength but suck as a whole and she's either kill or flee playstyle.

AbyssphereApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Elise's problem is that her kit has almost no synergy with itself and her entire kit consists of burst = kill/ run away. If no kill then walk away and burst again later. She also relies on Isolation practically even more than does because at least khazix has enough maneuverability and utility to allow him to get through a team fight, even if it's spent on the fringe, more so than Elise who has her caccoon and target based Repel.

in short. Her skills have strength but suck as a whole and she's either kill or flee playstyle.

I'm not really sure I get the problem. Aren't most champions "kill or flee"? And I'd say her kit has a pretty standard amount of synergy - in fact the pairing of % HP damages gives her kit a stronger combo-based nature than most. Some of her abilities can be a bit random (Volatile Spiderling particularly) but I think it's overstated how little synergy her kit has. Even that ability can be combo'd with her Spider Q.

SinlaireApr 10, 20151 votes

Well lets look at it this way. her Human form Q does % health damage based on targets current health, volatile spiderling is a homing bomb that detonates upon reaching an enemy target. hidden passive on the skill that only forum readers and elise players know though is that the spiderling will actually prioritize and track an enemy struck by Neurotoxin instead of just blowing up on the nearest enemy. Then she has her caccoon, which is a skill shot and a hard stun.

In Spider form her Q is a targeted dash for % health damage based on enemy Missing health, frenzy for increased attack speed and life steal on hit, and rappel. Elise gains increased movement speed in spider form and no mana cost on skills.

on enemy engage her rotation looks like this.

Human form start: Neurotoxin/ caccoon ( first and second cast priority interchangeable) - volatile spiderling - R form change Spider form : Skitter (W) - Possibly E (Rappel) if you dont mind blowing your escape - Q for execution damage at last possible second at best.

Rappel is situational and it's generally just W -> Q and Rappel left for safety. god forbid the enemy has any form of dash/movement steroid/flash/ knockback/root/ slow/ or any other form of escape due to Elise having her only gap closer being her execute unless she doesn't mind going all in with rappel, which then blows her ability to extract from overextending or tower dives.

In short, what you see here isn't synergy if you exclude the hidden passive with neurotoxin and volatile spiderling. It's a chain. you enter a fight exact same way 90% of the time with nearly no variation because that's the best way to do it. Human Q demands first use. Volatile used AFTER Q or it may target and blow up a minion instead, wasting damage and mana. Caccoon allows you to close without needing pider Q or E. Then spider W to start for steroid and Q to Execute.

that is NOT synergy. it's brain dead sequence execution. like playing Ryze . his passive makes it so that people have mapped out the most efficient way to move through his skill rotation for maximum number of casts in minimal time. no variation or you lose efficiency.

Elise plays the exact same way every time. go in, blow chain. no kill? Rappel out. Kill Rappel/walk out. Unlike tanks, bruisers, assassins, and even mages that walk into lanes for ganks have better aims than that. They can go in there specifically to harass without the intent to kill simply by using their skills as the situation needs and get the kill when they can.

When Elise goes in to kill. Uses the entire chain. When she goes in to harass. Uses the entire chain, but doesnt chase as hard. no play style change. just no major dives. It's mind numbingly boring and her high utility kit with fake synergy and muddle aims is what is keeping her weak. because Riot recognizes these problems and cant figure out what to tune. Too many levers and not really any of them good ones.

I think her skills just need a minor rework like Tristana before she can finally find a better place.

Sleeping VictorApr 10, 20152 votes

Doesn't anyone think her human is useless? The only thing she has in the human form is her passive which helps her passive in spider form. I confuse her Q and her auto-attack because they almost deal the same damage... Her rappel is a zhonyas 90% of the time, the enemy team waits for Elise to come down from the rappel, which she didn't have time to get to the nearest camp because she's so weak... Her human form's W range and damage are weak. The stun, the stun, the stun has range but literally NO DAMAGE... Why does a sin lvl 4 eat Elise lvl 6? :0 I mean any jungler could destroy her.

Okay with LosingApr 10, 20152 votes

These are my ideas on more damage-based builds for elise and if they're viable.

I've done some thinking, and I noticed how Elise rarely gets in many autoattacks against targets. But when you think about it, most of her ratio damage is on her spider form on-hit and spiderlings. Which can potentially spam those ratios with her spider W active. She has a 1-2 second stun on her cocoon, but it takes about a second to rappel to the target. But what about Gunblade on her? I think this would let her be an effective assassin. A pretty strong 2s slow should really help her reach her maximum damage potential, which I think might be huge. The extra AD is also put to good use with her AS burst, she puts both lifesteal and spell vamp to decent use, and they also stack with her existing spider W sustain, which would be good in turn if you're building her full AP, maybe giving her Akali-like sustain for dueling/small-scale fighting. And the AP build in turn increases the Gunblade active burst, which all in all provides some more damage between her % health poke and execute.

If your team could use the extra beef or you just prefer it, tanky AP could also work with Rylai's for the slow and Liandry's plus Zhonya's and Abyssal (or Athene's), like Rumble. She doesn't have his AoE DPS but she has poke, low CD single target nukes for procing full Rylais, utility in her stun, and some burst and DPS burst in her spider W. I know this is a less unusual idea, but I'm wondering about its overall viability as well.

Honestly I'm a sucker for being versatile and able to do a lot of different things (like an assassin/mage with stun, poke, range, and can be played everywhere but ADC... and rappel!), and I've become kind of infatuated with Elise and my ideas for her. But I can't actually try any of this out due to with what seems to be a degree of carpal tunnel, and can't really game for a good while. Anyway, do you guys think these are good builds for her (primarily the AP Assassin)? As a final note, I know she's mostly been built almost full tank, and I agree with those that say that that really doesn't match her kit at all. Even me who loves being versatile doesn't really care for that. I would rather just play Zac, one of my other favorite champions. Whose kit also seems pretty loaded >,<

Anyway, there's probably a good reason people build her tank instead of the ways I've mentioned, but I'm really interested in them, especially the assassin and wanted some feedback. I hope they are viable, and that she doesn't get reworked or overnerfed in that case, so I can enjoy playing her that way in the future.

Tl;dr: Gunblade AP assassin Elise?

AbyssphereApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=O Misty O,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=maVet90o,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-04-10T04:02:29.035+0000)

These are my ideas on more damage-based builds for elise and if they're viable.

I've done some thinking, and I noticed how Elise rarely gets in many autoattacks against targets. But when you think about it, most of her ratio damage is on her spider form on-hit and spiderlings. Which can potentially spam those ratios with her spider W active. She has a 1-2 second stun on her cocoon, but it takes about a second to rappel to the target. But what about Gunblade on her? I think this would let her be an effective assassin. A pretty strong 2s slow should really help her reach her maximum damage potential, which I think might be huge. The extra AD is also put to good use with her AS burst, she puts both lifesteal and spell vamp to decent use, and they also stack with her existing spider W sustain, which would be good in turn if you're building her full AP, maybe giving her Akali-like sustain for dueling/small-scale fighting. And the AP build in turn increases the Gunblade active burst, which all in all provides some more damage between her % health poke and execute.

If your team could use the extra beef or you just prefer it, tanky AP could also work with Rylai's for the slow and Liandry's plus Zhonya's and Abyssal (or Athene's), like Rumble. She doesn't have his AoE DPS but she has poke, low CD single target nukes for procing full Rylais, utility in her stun, and some burst and DPS burst in her spider W. I know this is a less unusual idea, but I'm wondering about its overall viability as well.

Honestly I'm a sucker for being versatile and able to do a lot of different things (like an assassin/mage with stun, poke, range, and can be played everywhere but ADC... and rappel!), and I've become kind of infatuated with Elise and my ideas for her. But I can't actually try any of this out due to with what seems to be a degree of carpal tunnel, and can't really game for a good while. Anyway, do you guys think these are good builds for her (primarily the AP Assassin)? As a final note, I know she's mostly been built almost full tank, and I agree with those that say that that really doesn't match her kit at all. Even me who loves being versatile doesn't really care for that. I would rather just play Zac, one of my other favorite champions. Whose kit also seems pretty loaded >,<

Anyway, there's probably a good reason people build her tank instead of the ways I've mentioned, but I'm really interested in them, especially the assassin and wanted some feedback. I hope they are viable, and that she doesn't get reworked or overnerfed in that case, so I can enjoy playing her that way in the future.

Tl;dr: Gunblade AP assassin Elise?

Interesting thoughts :) I've done a lot of theory on Elise and I tend to go the kinda defeatist route of "na, she's probably too weak to work with it" but Gunblade is something I never thought about. I'm loathe to build AD on her at all even though she does auto-attack a fair bit but the sustain could be just what she needs... I may try it out! I do think most of your builds are as viable as anything else she can build, honestly.

I think you asked why people build tank on her, and I'm pretty sure the main reason is because her early base damages can carry her through the early game, so she has no need to rush damage then, and by the time grouping is happening her main use is Cocoon, so building tanky basically functions exclusively so she can stay alive as long as possible to throw out as many Cocoons as she can, and won't randomly get blown up when someone looks at her. Full tank Elise never actually becomes a tank, because she has no tank steroids whatsoever, so don't think you're giving a tank when you build tanky on her. She just becomes a very poor support with an execute.

JRobin31Apr 11, 20152 votes

I don't think Elise should've been nerfed the way she was. I think RIOT went too far. When I saw Meteos stop playing her I knew it was over for Elise. Elise was his favorite champion or something. After nerfs went through on her, he was the only one playing her because he liked the champion so much and after more nerfs even he stopped playing her. Why did RIOT nerf her? I don't know. It was as if the powers that be in RIOT decided that Elise should not be played in the LCS and that they would nerf her until she left LCS. The players that enjoyed playing her, even players that mained her, were forced to play something else if they wanted to remain competitive. Meanwhile, Lee Sin survived just fine. According to LoLDB, Elise was the least popular jungler in the world during the past month and the fifth least popular champion overall, enjoying a popularity of 0.27%. In North America, only Zilean was less popular. I know RIOT says they don't look at statistics when deciding when to buff or nerf champions though. This is just a reflection on how far she's fallen out of favor.

Conus25Apr 10, 20151 votes

Keane approves.

VenowolfApr 10, 20152 votes

who is keane?

Conus25Apr 12, 20151 votes

Mid laner for Team Gravity who likes to play untraditional mid laners.

GodhriApr 10, 20151 votes

As a former avid Elise player, I can say that she is fine where she is right now in terms of kit and damage. What she lacks is theme. A spider waits patiently before swiftly striking. She needs this. She should get a move speed buff when moving towards enemy champions in spider form or after rappelling. Or something that fits more into the spider theme.

CatSithApr 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

As a former avid Elise player, I can say that she is fine where she is right now in terms of kit and damage. What she lacks is theme. A spider waits patiently before swiftly striking. She needs this. She should get a move speed buff when moving towards enemy champions in spider form or after rappelling. Or something that fits more into the spider theme.

I read a suggestion for elise awhile back and thought it would be a signifigant buff without buffing her damage was by giving her rappel a reset for kills and assists. i mean what kind of spider can only use their web once? lol :P

LeeDarkApr 10, 20153 votes

Imagine, if you will, if Zhonya's reset on kills and assists. Over the course of a teamfight, you could conceivably be untargetable for more than half the fight.

TourianApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Imagine, if you will, if Zhonya's reset on kills and assists. Over the course of a teamfight, you could conceivably be untargetable for more than half the fight.

Yeah but you'd also be useless for half the fight too and very very vulnerable after.

LeeDarkApr 10, 20152 votes

Not really. You use everything, Zhonya's, Zhonya's ends, enemy dies, you Zhonya's again, your short cooldowns come back up... anyway, the point is that Elise would do that with this buff, except she gets to choose where her Zhonya's ends. You beat up a few squishy targets, she rappels on one, kills it with Q, rappels back up and does it again. It would just be too much. She is already good at that, enabling early tower dives and managing turret aggro easily. She really just shouldn't have been nerfed. She wasn't particularly oppressive as a jungler. If she needed ANY nerf, they could have made it so her spiderlings wouldn't tank the jungle for her, and she'd be a little less healthy in clearing it early.

CatSithApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not really. You use everything, Zhonya's, Zhonya's ends, enemy dies, you Zhonya's again, your short cooldowns come back up... anyway, the point is that Elise would do that with this buff, except she gets to choose where her Zhonya's ends. You beat up a few squishy targets, she rappels on one, kills it with Q, rappels back up and does it again. It would just be too much. She is already good at that, enabling early tower dives and managing turret aggro easily. She really just shouldn't have been nerfed. She wasn't particularly oppressive as a jungler. If she needed ANY nerf, they could have made it so her spiderlings wouldn't tank the jungle for her, and she'd be a little less healthy in clearing it early.

Its not a zhonya she is untargetable she still can take damage from tethers and precast channels/skills like fizz and zed ult.

LeeDarkApr 10, 20151 votes

Yeah, Fizz's Playful/Trickster might have been a better comparison, but I failed to think of it at the time. So, if it reset on kills and assists, imagine instead... Fizz in URF.

AbyssphereApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imagine, if you will, if Zhonya's reset on kills and assists. Over the course of a teamfight, you could conceivably be untargetable for more than half the fight.

I agree that spammable Zhonya's is a bad idea, but I don't think that means a reset on Rappel is impossible to work with. I'd suggest making it a one-time reset, like "Once per 30 seconds, if Elise gains a kill or assist, the cooldown on Rappel is refreshed".

I really think it'd be a healthy change. She needs something to encourage her to go in and as long as her death is guaranteed even when she gets a kill (which is currently how it is in group scenarios), it will be really hard to make her do anything but use Cocoon in team fights. A reset on Rappel would have to be handled carefully, but it would give her the post-kill escape she desperately needs.

Only thing I could see doing the job anywhere near as well is increasing the AP ratio of Skittering Frenzy's heal, so she can at least have more chance of survival via her healing. But I'm not sure how well that'd work out either.

LeeDarkApr 10, 20151 votes

Limiting the number of resets that can be earned in any given fight to one would probably be acceptable. Still, it would have the possible effect of making her early game ganking truly oppressive. She already enabled fairly easy tower dives, but being able to both Rappel in AND Rappel back out, rather than having to land her stun to go in, would make that so much worse.

Honestly, I still just feel like the nerfs she got were unnecessary. Sure, she was often picked in the pro scene, but had a high skill cap, not as strong an impact as certain other junglers
( LeeSin ) at the time, and didn't have as much utility late game.

AbyssphereApr 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Limiting the number of resets that can be earned in any given fight to one would probably be acceptable. Still, it would have the possible effect of making her early game ganking truly oppressive. She already enabled fairly easy tower dives, but being able to both Rappel in AND Rappel back out, rather than having to land her stun to go in, would make that so much worse.

Honestly, I still just feel like the nerfs she got were unnecessary. Sure, she was often picked in the pro scene, but had a high skill cap, not as strong an impact as certain other junglers
( ) at the time, and didn't have as much utility late game.

I can understand wanting to keep her early tower dives from getting any stronger, but my question is: What would using Rappel as the initial gapcloser actually add to her early ganking? I currently feel that Venomous Bite would still remain the gapcloser of choice because of its comparative speed, and diving without a landed Cocoon would still remain unwise. Given how slow Rappel actually is and given that the range on Venomous Bite is more than sufficient anyway, I feel like Rappel being used as the initial gapcloser (and then as an escape) would make her ganks stronger only in a few niche situations.

If a Rappel reset DID make her early ganks too scary then honestly you could use that to build a niche for her: the BEST early game ganker. But I don't imagine it would make her tower dives a lot better. You do now have a choice of two gapclosers but I really do think Venomous Bite would remain the best one for most situations, just because it's a lot quicker than Rappel and in early ganking by the time you actually transform into spider form, you don't tend to have much more to do than use Venomous Bite anyway.

50649086DEL1Apr 10, 20152 votes

Rappel isnt a Zhonyas.

LeeDarkApr 10, 20151 votes

Yeah, it doesn't prevent damage, but it was the closest comparison I could come up with at the time. Fizz's Playful/Trickster might have been a better comparison.

50649086DEL1Apr 12, 20151 votes

Yeah that is a better comparison. The thing is though someone on the enemy team has to die for her to get the reset. If people are dying enough for her to stay untargetable for the whole fight then she wouldn't need to rappel in the first place. And if she is killing someone every time she comes down from her E then she has kinda earned it in my humble opinion.