A large majority of champions that get banned build Triforce

Kanzaki Ranko·Aug 27, 2016·35 votes·2,887 views

Does that not say something?

80 Comments

MarshbouyAug 27, 201648 votes

http://www.lolking.net/charts?type=bans 3 out of the top 10 champions that are banned have trinity force as a strong/rushed item on them ( Hecarim Irelia Gangplank ). 3 out of the top 10 also have rabadons deathcap built on them. ( Vladimir Nidalee Malzahar )

correlation=/=causation.

9kPluzZAug 27, 20165 votes

you forgot yasuo, jax, ekko

MarshbouyAug 27, 20165 votes

yasuo, ekko, and jax are not on the list that i posted

nice tableAug 27, 20166 votes

now if you dont take bronze n silver into the statistics.

cope momentAug 28, 20163 votes

bronze and silver don't carry as much weight in these kinds of statistics

LankPantsAug 28, 20162 votes

The top 10 bans in Plat+ are Hecarim Zed Irelia Kled Yasuo Vladimir Gangplank Darius Malzahar Illaoi according to champ.gg

Of these champs Irelia, Yasou, Hec and GP are users of Tri. It is worth noting however that there are also 4 primary Black Cleaver users, 4 Sterak's Gauge users and at least 5 Guardian Angel users. Does your argument also include these items as endemic problems?

nice tableAug 28, 20164 votes

zed is only banned cause no one wants to lane against him, kled is only banned cause his new and vlad / darius / malza are also only banned cause no one wants to lane against them.

this leaves us with heca, irelia, yasuo, gangplank and illaoi as the "op" bans.

EDIT: also yeah black cleaver is also a busted item, what gomes to steraks and guardian no one is rushing these items so ya know.

MonkeyMadnessAug 27, 20165 votes

O HAI BUDDY, READY FOR ROUND 2???

Use this list, it only records stats for players that know what they're doing http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend

Trinity force by design is favorable on 2 types of champions:

high base attack damage, making the proc deal more damage
champs that can spam spells on fairly low cooldowns so they can use that proc more often

This item was fairly balanced for a long time, only receiving occasional tweaks, and at one point a major buff to the proc damage to differentiate it from the aoe sheen option in item 3025 . But then, Riot did what it does best, and meddled in shit that ought not be meddled with. They removed the crit chance ( Gangplank item 3070 ) and buffed the cdr to 20% and also gave a substantial boost to the attack speed. This is the reason why these champs are topping the ban lists. Increased cdr MASSIVELY boosts the dps from the champs that abuse spell spam to abuse the proc (ie hecarim, yasuo, and to some extent irelia). However, this is marginal compared to the op-ness of that attack speed boost. By boosting the attack speed on triforce, they gave a MASSIVE buff to champs that are already abusing the fervor keystone (IRELIA AND YASUO BEING THE MOST OBVIOUS). With higher attack speed to stack fervor, more cdr to spam spells, and a proc that deals 200% of their base damage after casting an ability (or in these cases applying as an on hit effect) these champs can function with only a single offensive item and then building pure tank stats. This is NOT a healthy design.

I'm not sure if I would call trinity force "overpowered" but there definitely is some causation here.

MarshbouyAug 27, 20161 votes

Trinity is hands down a very strong and synergistic item but "these champions build it and these champions also get banned" lacks nuance and is a terrible argument. What you said is a far better argument, and one that is true.

MonkeyMadnessAug 27, 20162 votes

Well I'm glad we can agree on that.

I'll also add this for OP: you are not wrong to blame trinity force, but it only exacerbates the real issue. The actual culprit that makes most of these champs op is the Fervor Keystone (triforce just synergizes extremely well with it).

SeekêrAug 27, 20161 votes

I think the combined buff of attack speed and cdr is why so many champions can build the item.

But if we are comparing deathcap to tri-force you have to take into consideration each item's purpose.

First you'd have to examine the role that each item is meant for. Triforce is meant for bruisers which is a very diverse class of champions that have many different playstyles and stat priorities. Deathcap is meant for AP champions. ALL THE AP CHAMPIONS BUILD AP, so it is core.

The conclusion, you can break down tri-force's stats to justify your accusation of it being op but tri-force being core for the role it is intended to be core for does not make it broken.

Most likely, this is all just flavor of the month since the item is fairly new.

PS: we can round 3 and break down any core item's stats to fit different champions the same way you did and convince everyone that that item is op as well.

You need more than claims, you have to do the math to prove that the item is giving too much damage. Claiming "Massively increased damage" with no actual math to support it is missleading.

I'd suggest comparing the damage increase over 10 seconds between Infinity edge, deathcap, and tri-force; then maybe your argument would hold merit.

MonkeyMadnessAug 28, 20162 votes

Most likely, this is all just flavor of the month since the item is fairly new.

Excuse me? Trinity force is new??? um no...

I agree generally with your assessment on the op-ness of the item though. However, to not address the triforce + fervor + tanky build synergy is rather irresponsible of riot, given how prevalent it has become. Just look at yasuo: his passive gives him DOUBLE CRIT CHANCE. He is very obviously supposed to build crit. And build it early, as his q will also crit, boosting his dps A LOT with very little gold investment. However, with how powerful the triforce, fervor, tank stats combo is right now, I have seen yasuos opting out of crit. That should be very telling that there is a problem with balance.

And comparing dps between triforce and an item like IE is pretty meaningless. Trinity force requires a champ to use abilities, meaning that damage will differ radically depending on the champion picked, whereas IE damage boost will be much more consistent across the board.

SeekêrAug 30, 20161 votes

The changes are new.

Nami in BushAug 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://www.lolking.net/charts?type=bans 3 out of the top 10 champions that are banned have trinity force as a strong/rushed item on them ( ). 3 out of the top 10 also have rabadons deathcap built on them. ( )

correlation=/=causation.

Yasuo, Ekko

Voluug13Aug 28, 20164 votes

Yes, because Yasuo and Ekko are the pinnacle of good character design, and in their case, it must be clearly the item.

Immortal spaxAug 28, 20161 votes

It seems like the OP just got rekted.

Gg.

Toplane FencerAug 28, 20161 votes

Actually it's not a correlation as it's only 3/10.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 27, 20163 votes

jax doesn't get banned a lot. neither does ekko.

also a large majority of adcs that get banned build infinity edge. does that say something?

GULAG 4 UAug 27, 20162 votes

But ekko is op and constantly picked in lcs?

Kanzaki RankoAug 27, 20163 votes

Seriously if an AP assassin is building Triforce then there's an issue on both ends.

Voluug13Aug 28, 20168 votes

The same assassin was buying IBG weeks before.

Its not the items, its the champion. Ekko is simply a melee assassin version of Ezreal.

Akali is SO HOTAug 28, 20161 votes

Ekko isn't an AP Assassin. He was intended to be one when he was released but he's not.

NarasimhaAug 27, 20163 votes

100% of the champions banned build boots. I think I know what the real problem is.

Mister SupportAug 28, 20164 votes

Cassio is a decent ban right now to be fair

Dominick DestineAug 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadCast Fenris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWE5rsPK,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-08-28T02:05:10.002+0000)

Cassio is a decent ban right now to be fair

Legit lol'd at this boots pwnage.

Irelia BotAug 27, 20162 votes

That they should have put movement speed on sheen instead of CDR and had trinity only have 10% CDR which in turn would also adress the question of where does that movement speed come from in the first place...

It is stronger then it should be.

YumaS2AstralAug 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWE5rsPK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-27T17:29:25.387+0000)

That they should have put movement speed on sheen instead of CDR and had trinity only have 10% CDR which in turn would also adress the question of where does that movement speed come from in the first place...

It is stronger then it should be.

Or they could just revert Trinity Force to back when it used to have 10% CDR, 20% crit chance, and 15% attack speed

Irelia BotAug 27, 20164 votes

You mean the state where only GP and Yasuo liked it?

QjTHqo3RTqAug 27, 20161 votes

And corki.

Spaceman5pffAug 27, 20162 votes

And Irelia

statelesskillerAug 27, 20162 votes

Blitzcrank Darius Corki Ezreal Fiora Gangplank Garen Hecarim Illaoi Irelia Jax Mordekaiser Nasus Rengar Tryndamere Udyr

QjTHqo3RTqAug 28, 20161 votes

She didnt use the crit, so new triforce is better

Spaceman5pffAug 28, 20161 votes

Just because new Triforce is better doesn't mean old one wasnt good

QjTHqo3RTqAug 28, 20161 votes

I agree, did I ever say the old one wasnt good? I think the old one was even better because I hate playing gp with new one

Spaceman5pffAug 28, 20161 votes

"you mean the state where ONLY GP AND YASUO LIKED IT"

Thus implying it was not good on Irelia.

QjTHqo3RTqAug 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWE5rsPK,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-27T20:35:09.877+0000)

You mean the state where only GP and Yasuo liked it?

I didnt even say that, jesus you even downvoted me

Spaceman5pffAug 28, 20161 votes

Internet Justice [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

QjTHqo3RTqAug 28, 20161 votes

You seem actually mentally challenged.

Spaceman5pffAug 29, 20161 votes

At its finest [slayer-jinx-wink]

Irelia BotAug 28, 20163 votes

Irelia used it mainly because there was nothing better.

15% attack speed was way too slow.

WoonStruckAug 27, 201612 votes

Or fuck that, it was a horrible iteration of the item.

How about the 10% CDR, 30 AD, 30% attackspeed, 8% MS, 10% crit that it had before Riot made it a shitty ADC item?

Hell, you can even make that essentially wasted crit into more HP instead. A recurve and 40% AS would make the most sense, probably.

RebonackAug 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or fuck that, it was a horrible iteration of the item.

How about the 10% CDR, 30 AD, 30% attackspeed, 8% MS, 10% crit that it had before Riot made it a shitty ADC item?

Hell, you can even make that essentially wasted crit into more HP instead. A recurve and 40% AS would make the most sense, probably.

You've got my vote for a Trinity that builds out of Recurve instead of Stinger.

This has absolutely nothing to do with me playing nothing but Kog since forever.

fGUXUQ1hyWAug 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWE5rsPK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-27T17:29:25.387+0000)

That they should have put movement speed on sheen instead of CDR and had trinity only have 10% CDR which in turn would also adress the question of where does that movement speed come from in the first place...

It is stronger then it should be.

lol the movement speed comes from the phage hello?

Irelia BotAug 28, 20161 votes

the rage passive come from phage

The 5% movement speed appears out of nowhere.

La BarbotteAug 27, 20162 votes

item 3116 item 3078 those two are prblematic and are causing unneeded champion nerfs

Malicious MetalAug 28, 20165 votes

Funny thing. Those two are my Core items on Mordekaiser

La BarbotteAug 28, 20161 votes

senpai plz, y u notice me :3

Voluug13Aug 28, 20168 votes

The real problem of Rylai's is that its broken on some champions, required to be viable on others, and useless on others. But, the real problem is that the champions that are abusing the item like Azir are mostly problem champions.

Rylai always existed, and even after its last change, it wasnt OP or problematic. Its the newest champions, specially Azir and similars.

Trinity is similar case: its not OP on balanced or unproblematic champions, its champions that have always been a problem or were a problem before the ones abusing the item.

La BarbotteAug 28, 20161 votes

exactly no to talk of Viktor