Reminder that Veigar lost 35% of his damage with his "buffs"

Kanzaki Ranko·Jun 8, 2015·76 votes·4,403 views

on top of his e having the delay

-20% off ult and -15% from dfg (and maybe the flat damage dfg does too?)

85 Comments

Leu07Jun 8, 201531 votes

and then comes ekko who has veigar ult in aoe and with a heal! <3 oh and no cost...and mobility! item 3070 Veigar

Lao Fu the TigerJun 9, 20157 votes

{quoted}

and then comes ekko who has veigar's ult damage in aoe even though he doesn't scale at all to others' AP, that he cannot aim at all, is highly telegraphed, and that you have to be blind to get hit by and most of the time only uses as an escape, and with a heal! <3 oh and no cost even though they're adding a cost in 5.12...and mobility!

FTFY.

LlaniteJun 9, 20158 votes

Every high rate veigar agrees that he is now better to play whIle you here spamming 'reminder' and item 3073

ReazaleJun 9, 20151 votes

Where can i check that high rated veigars think he is better to play now?

Slamurai JackJun 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Where can i check that high rated veigars think he is better to play now?

No main of a champion likes counterplay being added to their champions kit. Ever. Being able to just destroy enemies with little to no counterplay feels amazing for the person playing that champ. You can bet none of the Rengar mains were happy when they added the ! to his ult, but it still needed to happen. Kha'zix mains probably really miss being able to facetank everything with the damage reduction on his evolved R. Hell, I'm sure even alot of Sion mains were upset when they could no longer just build full AP and 1 shot people with 2 abilities, even though we got an amazing new champion in exchange.

Raid Boss MordeJun 9, 20155 votes

It's also not a point and click... doesn't scale with the opponent's AP... can't be cast from afar (ekko's brings you next to where you were) ... is completely reliable (you shouldn't miss this).

He also doesn't gain AP passively and reach 1k+ AP.

KoldheartedjspJun 9, 20156 votes

sweet jesus an ekko main!

I Main SwainJun 9, 20151 votes

wrong circle jerk bro

Slamurai JackJun 8, 201528 votes

His win rate is higher now than it was back before they reworked him, and has been for a few patches now. This horse is more than dead; it's almost completely decomposed and you'd never know it was even a horse if you hadn't seen it before. Initially, the Veigar rework was a failure because his numbers were horribly undertuned. They buffed him up to acceptable levels and now he's fine.

idokiJun 9, 201511 votes

Sir, I must ask you to leave this thread, you are interrupting the circlejerk ritual

ReazaleJun 9, 20152 votes

It aint in a bad spot balance wise, but is stupidly retarded the way u have to play it and how impotent u feel til u can basicaly QR ppl to their death, or how much u depend on ur team to make preasure in order to land/place a good E or land W, or how u are unable to harass whit ur Q unless they go full retard. Balance wise he is fine, he just feels like crap shit the first 20-30 mins of the game... after that it feels as good as before... to bad he has more weakness now than before...

OvionJun 8, 201519 votes

On top of his W being unreliable because his E has delay On top of his Q having more CD lategame

Sire HippingtonJun 8, 20155 votes

i think he reffers to his W beeing unreliable, else i'm really curious on how he lost 35% damage...

Davy CrockettJun 8, 20151 votes

Ulti lost its 1.2 AP ratio down to 1.0 and Q damage was changed

Rew711Jun 8, 201510 votes

I want his Q to have a longer casting distance, for safety reasons; so instead of 900, lets have 1000. I want the damage on his W to be increased from 120/170/220/270/320 to 120/180/240/300/360 damage. I want his E to cost 60/70/80/90/100 mana. And I want his R to deal 1/1.1/1.2% of Veigar's AP.

Davy CrockettJun 8, 20152 votes

I like that idea. I would love to use Q while standing safely behind my minions. The only problem is his E is the stun and the W is the meteor :D

Sire HippingtonJun 9, 20152 votes

i want talons Q to have 18 / 36 / 54 / 72 / 90(1.2ad) damage on the dot, i want the E to silence for 1 sec, and i want his ult to deal 120 / 190 / 260(0.9ad) damage...

you can't always get what you want, and veigar really doesn't need more letgame damage....

Sire HippingtonJun 8, 20155 votes

thats not even 35% lost on his ult ratio.... q damage didn't change at all, it has a minimal higher cd lategame, but can hit 2 targets on more range in exchange for the reliabillity of point n click You can much better farm ap early on, and later once Q 1-shots 2 minions even more so. His W also has less cd now

The only thing that really hurts him is that his W still relys on landing E, and landing E is less reliable(not as impossible as most people make it out to be though), which indirectly makes W less reliable.

going by his winrate, especially for experienced veigars(15+games), he does really well right now. However, his W simply doesn't feel good to use, so i'm all for some changes for his W, but it needs to be done carefully, he's not really in desperate need off buffs right now

McHatenJun 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M3nxXN0U,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-08T21:31:39.884+0000)

i think he reffers to his W beeing unreliable, else i'm really curious on how he lost 35% damage...

If anything, he does more dmg now because of his stacks. If the game goes to 40+ minutes, he can nearly instagib tanks, much less squishy targets. They jsut pushed his damage more to late game with q stacking. He is like 10x worse than a late game nasus.

kile147Jun 9, 20153 votes

Unlike Nasus Veigar is loses a lot of damage to item 3157 , item 3139 , item 3102 since those items either invalidate his burst or his stun, both of which he needs.

kile147Jun 9, 20152 votes

DFG was core on him, its removal hurt the burst of every champ who used it by 15%

SnakezzyJun 8, 20158 votes

You may hate me for this, but this is my opinion: Before his "rework" veigar was extremely annoying to play against and had almost no counter play. he would place down his e thingy and if you were inside you usually lost a ton of health if he ulted you with full combo. Not to mention his ult scaled off of ENEMIES AP and was a point and click along with his q giving him FREE stats. He would 1 shot any AP late game thanks to just his ult and dfg. Imo he was too strong and was rightfully nerfed. He was nerfed a bit too hard, but since recent changes he is a lot more balanced now but you have to actually outplay instead of point and clicked for 75% health.

Kanzaki RankoJun 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You may hate me for this, but this is my opinion: Before his "rework" veigar was extremely annoying to play against and had almost no counter play. he would place down his e thingy and if you were inside you usually lost a ton of health if he ulted you with full combo. Not to mention his ult scaled off of ENEMIES AP and was a point and click along with his q giving him FREE stats. He would 1 shot any AP late game thanks to just his ult and dfg. Imo he was too strong and was rightfully nerfed. He was nerfed a bit too hard, but since recent changes he is a lot more balanced now but you have to actually outplay instead of point and clicked for 75% health.

He was changed solely because of his E.

If you were a mage that got within 650 range of Veigar late game then that's your own fault.

I love his E now. What I don't love is him doing less than he use to when they wanted Veigar's identity to be bursting 100-0, not 100-10

I've had many occasions where my ult leaves enemies on 50 HP---- Needless to say it's REALLY annoying for them to not die to a full combo

OvionJun 9, 20152 votes

The problem is that Veigar still has a point and click ability that deals 75% of his target damage... His ulti deals 100% of his AP + 80% of the enemy AP, so you still can kill someone ONLY because they are APC...

Riot did a poor "mini-rework"/"champion update" because, even if they solve the insta-stun problem, they didn't look at Veigar's kit as a whole (W being really difficult to hit without the stun of his E, R being a strong point and click burst against APC, etc...)

CrettJun 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You may hate me for this, but this is my opinion: Before his "rework" veigar was extremely annoying to play against and had almost no counter play. he would place down his e thingy and if you were inside you usually lost a ton of health if he ulted you with full combo. Not to mention his ult scaled off of ENEMIES AP and was a point and click along with his q giving him FREE stats. He would 1 shot any AP late game thanks to just his ult and dfg. Imo he was too strong and was rightfully nerfed. He was nerfed a bit too hard, but since recent changes he is a lot more balanced now but you have to actually outplay instead of point and clicked for 75% health.

I agree with you, he needed changes. My main issue with new Veigar is his SEVERE lack of reliability. He needs a new pattern. His current pattern is getting bullied early on, only to transition into a hit or miss playstyle, and still isn't very fun to play as or against.

Praetor DonJun 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

but you have to actually outplay instead of point and clicked for 75% health.

Leblanc

Jarrito232Jun 9, 20153 votes

LeBlanc has one point and click. The rest are skill shots.

TrídentJun 9, 20153 votes

He needed changes... but don't call it a "compensation BUFF" Rito.

Jarrito232Jun 9, 20155 votes

Oh hey its Veigar. Oh I got stunned. Oh I'm dead. Yep that was fun. But hey you can't criticize old champions that aren't assassins. This is the LoL Boards.

CindikleJun 9, 20157 votes

More AP(while his ult is weaker overall remember his other abilities gained damage in place of it).

DFG was generally overkill

Q has more range and hits more target in a teamfight(if you can land it, it's a buff).

His E is really all there is room to complain about. And it's a lot healthier now.

He's had a high 40's win rate for a while now. He's really not in as weak of a state as people want to believe.

Only buff I think he could use is his W landing slightly sooner 0.9 seconds or so. (Try to remember it has 320+100% AP for damage, it's not going to be much shorter.)

Saminus MaximusJun 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

More AP(while his ult is weaker overall remember his other abilities gained damage in place of it).

DFG was generally overkill

Q has more range and hits more target in a teamfight(if you can land it, it's a buff).

His E is really all there is room to complain about. And it's a lot healthier now.

He's had a high 40's win rate for a while now. He's really not in as weak of a state as people want to believe.

Only buff I think he could use is his W landing slightly sooner 0.9 seconds or so. (Try to remember it has 320+100% AP for damage, it's not going to be much shorter.)

He's not weak, he's just unfun to play since half your kit doesn't matter till teamfights. And your only lane safety mechanism is now near useless against his hardest matchups (Assasins) since they can dash past your cage before it drops or just ignore it entirely (Zed, Talon).

ReazaleJun 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

More AP(while his ult is weaker overall remember his other abilities gained damage in place of it).

Overall nerf, the extra AP is weaker cos he lost scaling not base dmg , its harder to make up for losing scaling than bases on a champ that can farm AP

DFG was generally overkill

Luden echo is overkill? lich bane?, nope , killing a target and making sure he truly dies is more important (most of the time) than saving, DFG made sure u could kill carrys be mid game whitout ur W if u could survive to a 2nd Q.

Q has more range and hits more target in a teamfight(if you can land it, it's a buff).

Forgot to tell its a skill shot now , i can do 0 dmg while before u it would always land unless untargetable/spell shields were used. Also AoE, i cant no longer use spell vamp to sustain through some lanes like i did before cos it got a 34% nerf to it (good thing i never found a use for rylai on veigar :P ).

His E is really all there is room to complain about. And it's a lot healthier now.

Nothing to say here. Its been discussed.

He's had a high 40's win rate for a while now. He's really not in as weak of a state as people want to believe.

He is not weak , his playstyle sucks , he wants to just farm , and to farm til min 20 like Nasus... but u know what? right now even nasus would want to interact more whit his lane opponent than Veigar...

Only buff I think he could use is his W landing slightly sooner 0.9 seconds or so. (Try to remember it has 320+100% AP for damage, it's not going to be much shorter.)

There are various examples of skills whit less delay and similar power ( Cho gath Q is the more notable).

ShaftyMegeeJun 8, 20156 votes

Qq?

Starcall CaseyJun 9, 20156 votes

Daily reminder that a good veigar players can utilize his kit and solo carry to victory. His AP ratio's are amazing and his utility in teamfights is still there.

NarcolepticAiryJun 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Daily reminder that a good veigar players can utilize his kit and solo carry to victory. His AP ratio's are amazing and his utility in teamfights is still there.

Lol Veigar is almost impossible to carry with since all he can do is delete the squishy mage that refuses to change their build for a match. He only becomes a threat if a. the enemy is horrible b. they refuse to buy one def. item c. 40+ minutes in. Even if all three are true, he doesn't become op just mediocre. Man, Ekko was a huge slap in the face after what they did to his E.

Starcall CaseyJun 9, 20152 votes

Just today I was playing a ranked solo Q game as Zac, I build banshee's and negatron cloak (while also having tank masteries, MR blues and MR in the defense tree and the -4 from AOE magic damage) before we won and he still almost demolished my team dealing around 1200 with a Q alone to me! that player is a very good veigar player and we just barely won once we were able to trap him under our tower and push for the win! Veigar is a very good burst mage with a lot of potential since he can outplay his opponents and infinity scale with his Q.

air tigerJun 9, 20153 votes

So you claim to have around 180 MR and you say he Q'd you for 1200? I call bullshit. Do you know how much AP any Veigar would have to stack to hit you for 1200? Even if you had 0 MR, the game would very likely end before Veigar could stack that much AP.

Here's the math

Baleful Strike Lv5 260 + .6AP = 1200 .6AP = 940 AP = 1567

Maybe you meant W, as there's very little possibility the game lasted long enough for Veigar to build the 2000~ AP required to Q you for 1200 with that kind of MR. And yes, W is strong. It also has an enormous delay, so just ya know.. crawl out :P

Starcall CaseyJun 10, 20151 votes

You're leaving out some crucial details. Like magic pen especially. I've done all the math for you all. 8 Magic pen from runes 15 from boots 15 from liandry's 35% from Void staff 8+15+15= 38 Magic pen. 35% of 170.4= 59.64 (void staff applies before magic pen) Total of 98 magic pen (rounded out)

Magic resist I had~ 53.4 Base MR from level 18 55 from Bashee's 45 from negatron cloak 12 from runes 5 from masteries -4% magic damage taken from AOE from masteries 53.4+12+5+55+45 = 170.4 Magic resist.

Veigar was doing really well and had around 1500 ability power His Q would do 260+900=1160 His W would do 320+1500=1820 His R would do 500+1500= 2000 (not counter 80% of targets ability power)

He would negate around 100 Magic resist leaving Zac at 70.4, Which would be around a 40% resist to magic damage. With that Veigar now deals to Zac~ With Q =696 With W =1092 With R = 1200 The burn from liandry's on a 4000 HP Zac would deal 160 a second while being damaged by veigar. (that's probably what I felt, that or the W from Veigar is Why I thought he did around 1200)

As you can see the power of veigar towards anyone, even a maga tank like Zac, he can melt through. Since Zac has 4000 HP and with everyone used on him that would leave him with 1012 HP before liandry's burn. So at the start of a fight between Zac and veigar, Zac would only have 360 HP after liandry's burn. (160x3 seconds Plus 1 second (160x4) for getting hit with W with it being around a 1 second delay before it lands).

I hope you guys took the time to read it all and see where I was coming from. Veigar's damage is far from needing a buff since he can burst even the most tanky of champion late game.

air tigerJun 8, 20155 votes

It's not terrible now.. but he's just not that much fun to play as. The thing I don't get was the reduction in R's AP ratio. They justified it with "being able to farm more ap with Q," which refers to the slight nerf-change to his Q. I don't really think the additional AP you'll get from the new Q supplants the missing damage in R though. It's close, but I have noticed that enemies survive a full combo with 10-50 health way more often than they used to.

I do appreciate that change to E that made it stop dashes, though. It's perhaps the best addition Veigar got to his kit in this whole rework. It's such a tiny change and E's walls should have worked that way from the beginning, but still I am thankful. No more Vi ult connecting through my Event Horizon just to stun her after she's completed it (was a freakin joke to watch this happen).

DeusVultJun 9, 20154 votes

Veigar used to have a total AP ratio of 2.8 (Personal) +0.8 (enemy). So, he really had an AP ratio of 3.6

Then they nerfed his ult ratio, and it is impossible to land his W, so his AP ratios went from 3.6 to 2.4 and if his enemies have no AP, then it is really just 1.6 total AP scaling. And Riot wonders why he isnt that good atm.

Raid Boss MordeJun 9, 20153 votes

Then every champ in the game lost 15% of their damage, because anyone could build DFG.

If we're going about champs who actually used it, then Mordekaiser lost another 30% of his damage when they lowered his W's ratio and base damage:

20% AP over 6 seconds [120% AP] ---> 15% AP over 6 seconds [90% AP]

80 damage over 6 seconds [480] ---> 68 damage over 6 seconds [408]

In total, he lost 45% of his damage + 72 base damage.

Hinro HonatoJun 9, 20153 votes

Let's be honest here. The champion who lost the most from the dfg removal was ap darius.

Raid Boss MordeJun 9, 20153 votes

I thought that DFG Garen died when it was removed? :(

Garen suffered a greater loss...

CaelerJun 9, 20153 votes

Misleading title is misleading. Veigar didn't lose 35% of his damage. The DFG change affected every champion that used DFG, not just Veigar. There's also the fact that Luden's was added in to replace DFG. Therefore it would be more accurate to say that Veigar lost 20% of his damage.

That statement, however, would also be wrong. Veigar did not lose 20% of his damage. He lost .2 AP scaling on his ult, which is completely different.

If Veigar is level 18 and has maxed all of his skills...

Pre-Change Veigar: Q: 260 (+ 60% AP) W: 320 (+ 100% AP) R: 500 (+ 120% AP) for a total of 1080 (+ 280% AP) assuming only one target is hit with W.

Post-Change Veigar: Q: 260 (+ 60% AP) W: 320 (+ 100% AP) R: 500 (+ 100% AP) for a total of 1080 (+ 260% AP) magic damage assuming only one target is hit with Q and W.

At 0 AP, pre-change Veigar deals the same amount of damage as post-change Veigar.

At 200 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 1640 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 1600—a decrease of ~2.4% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 400 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 2200 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 2120—a decrease of ~3.6% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 600 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 2760 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 2640—a decrease of ~4.3% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 800 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 3320 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 3160—a decrease of ~4.8% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 1000 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 3880 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 3680—a decrease of ~5.2% damage for post-change Veigar.

As Veigar continues to gain AP, the percent decrease in damage between pre-change Veigar and post-change Veigar will approach a limit—the percent change in his scalings. This would result in, at worst, a decrease of ~7.2% damage for post-change Veigar.

If Veigar is attacking multiple targets, however, his new Q can hit two targets as opposed to one. Assuming new Veigar hits the same amount of targets with his W, but hits two targets with his Q...

Pre-Change Veigar: Q: 260 (+ 60% AP) W: 320 (+ 100% AP) R: 500 (+ 120% AP) for a total of 1080 (+ 280% AP) magic damage.

Post-Change Veigar: Q: 520 (+ 120% AP) assuming two targets hit. W: 320 (+ 100% AP) R: 500 (+ 100% AP) for a total of 1340 (+ 320% AP) magic damage.

At 0 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 1080 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 1340—an increase of ~24.1% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 200 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 1640 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 1980—an increase of ~20.7% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 400 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 2200 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 2620—an increase of ~19.1% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 600 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 2760 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 3260—an increase of ~18.1% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 800 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 3320 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 3900—an increase of ~17.5% damage for post-change Veigar.

At 1000 AP, pre-change Veigar deals 3880 magic damage compared to post-change Veigar's 4540—an increase of ~17% damage for post-change Veigar.

As Veigar continues to gain AP, the percent increase in damage between pre-change Veigar and post-change Veigar will approach a limit— the percent change in his scalings. This would result in, at worst, an increase of ~14.3% damage for post-change Veigar.

tl;dr New Veigar deals more damage than old Veigar if you hit more than one target with your Q.

JustMyBassCannonJun 9, 20152 votes

Thank you for doing the math that I was too tired and lazy to do. I knew the 35% figure was wrong, but didn't bother.

Byakuya KuchikiJun 8, 20152 votes

how has he lost 35% of his damage when he can now stack q just as fast if not faster and got his ult damage from120% to 100%

Curling VeigarJun 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

how has he lost 35% of his damage when he can now stack q just as fast if not faster and got his ult damage from120% to 100%

dfg

Byakuya KuchikiJun 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M3nxXN0U,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-06-08T21:53:02.035+0000)

dfg

what about ludens beign addded?

One Bind MorganaJun 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

what about ludens beign addded?

dfg is better

AnonagonJun 9, 20152 votes

Thats not how numbers work

20% AP and 15% of the enemy's max hp was not nearly 35% of veigar's damage

i mean, you just fucking added those two numbers together, even though they aren't even in the same units (one is AP, one is opponent's maxHP)

now, yeah, a Veigar full combo now does less damage than a Veigar full combo before. But its not from either the lower ult ratio nor the 15% maxHP damage DFG did. The damage he would lose primarily comes from the 20% damage amplification DFG gave.

All that, of course, assumes "equal" builds - Veigar's with the same Q farm and the same build except for the replacement of DFG with Ludens. However, new Veigar has a much easier time stacking AP, especially in losing lanes, so while super fed Veigar took a damage hit, a behind Veigar is probably noticing a bit of a damage bump.

Veigar's burst is still easily capable of 100-0ing a squishy with just QR. In addition to this, his rework gave him easier stacking, a better time when behind, slightly better AoE presence, and the cool bonus of his E stopping dashes.