It's amazing that tank players, of all players, are the ones complaining about lethality

HateDaddy·Feb 17, 2017·22 votes·2,621 views

Try playing an off tank/bruiser or non melee tank champion and enjoy being deleted by Graves just for having the nerve to be on the same side of the map as him. Tanks are the least effected by lethality and it's overtuned power right now yet they feel the need to whine the most. Lethality needs to be balanced so buying it doesn't equate to instaibbing anything below 150 armor, not changed around so tanks can go from living for 5 seconds in a fight while being 5 man focused to 6 seconds.

114 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 17, 201715 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are the least effected by lethality

doesn't matter lethality affects them like everyone, and combined with black cleaver and ldr, going from 300 armor to 120 armor(nearly) isn't something that we should forget

going from 70% damage reduction to 50% damage reduction is a huge fucking debuff when you're focused by physical damage

without forgetting that you can't get 300 armor(unless your name is poppy), only one that can get it is malphite and rammus who aren't played

200 armor zac will get destroyed by lethality

RexSaurFeb 17, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-17T16:06:59.319+0000)

doesn't matter lethality affects them like everyone, and combined with black cleaver and ldr, going from 300 armor to 120 armor(nearly) isn't something that we should forget

going from 70% damage reduction to 50% damage reduction is a huge fucking debuff when you're focused by physical damage

without forgetting that you can't get 300 armor(unless your name is poppy), only one that can get it is malphite and rammus who aren't played

200 armor zac will get destroyed by lethality

Is it that terrible that tanks are dying to full pen, glass cannon full build champs?

Should tanks not die to someone whos fully investing on their build to deal with armor?

AhristocatsFeb 17, 20178 votes

never said that

i'm just tired of hatedaddy always saying that lethality won't affect tanks when they get destroyed due to lethality

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T16:26:43.894+0000)

never said that

i'm just tired of hatedaddy always saying that lethality won't affect tanks when they get destroyed due to lethality

And I'm tired of tank mains saying lethality destroys tanks because it doesn't. It takes lethality + percentage pen and no matter what someone builds, lethality, huge amounts of AD, crit/AS, once they build percentage pen, they are going to hurt tanks. There's drawbacks to all builds. Lethality/AD stacking significantly reduce overall DPS, AS/crit make AD scaling spells weak.

No matter what, someone is going to build to anti tank. And anti tank stats like percentage pen has always been the way to do that. And those are expensive as shit builds to boot, while full tank builds aren't. If you have complaints about percentage pen being too strong or armor being too weak late game, that's a valid complaint and legitimate discussion to be had. But otherwise, complaining about lethality as a tank is silly, lethality still provides AD which is what people seem to forget. And if your argument even then is that lethality is simply too good, then once again, that's a good argument to be had. All of which I either agree with or disagree with but consider a valid platform.

And it's completely disingenuous to balance and hypocritical. You didn't hear tank mains complaining about lethality when tanks were fucking busted literally last patch. And that's the thing, if you're going to complain about balance, be consistent with it. Don't complain about it when it's convenient for you. I can't stand that the most, because as a juggernaut player, I raged at how stupid some juggernauts were during juggernaut rework. I didn't blindly defend them. Broken is broken, be consistent.

AhristocatsFeb 17, 20176 votes

lethality doesn't hurt your dps, it depends on which champ you're playing talon isn't going to dps, miss fortune and lucian are going to dps

stop saying bullshit, and don't call me a tank main because i don't main anything in this damn game

i don't need to main tanks to see zac falling in front of my eyes in 2 sec to physical damage

so either lethality is still powerfull against tank because it removes like 30% of their damage reduction combined with some %armor pen or tanks are innertly trash

ps: you can get 30 lethality from runes+masteries wake up we're not in 2016

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T18:23:14.852+0000)

lethality doesn't hurt your dps, it depends on which champ you're playing talon isn't going to dps, miss fortune and lucian are going to dps

stop saying bullshit, and don't call me a tank main because i don't main anything in this damn game

i don't need to main tanks to see zac falling in front of my eyes in 2 sec to physical damage

so either lethality is still powerfull against tank because it removes like 30% of their damage reduction combined with some %armor pen or tanks are innertly trash

ps: you can get 30 lethality from runes+masteries wake up we're not in 2016

This is the problem. You're equating me saying lethality isn't responsible for melting tanks to lethality isn't broken. Of course lethality is fucking broken and we all it is and will be adjusted.

And of course it's going to break champions like Talon because Talon has always built armor pen/AD so naturally he benefits the most. But people are bitching about ADCs building it and aren't acknowledging the huge sacrifice most of them are making to stack lethality. And naturally some of this goes out the window up front just because lethality is broken.

ADCs have always had ways to get around tanks armor and with the addition of BC, now casters do too in theory. But casters are generally burst oriented (obviously there are exceptions) so typically they aren't going to 100-0 a tank because of the tanks raw HP - not to mention, if your AD caster is blowing their entire combo on a tank, that's a good thing for the tanks team.

And lastly I didn't call you a tank main. I'm speaking generally in this regard because it applies generally.

Variks the LoyalFeb 17, 20173 votes

{quoted} But people are bitching about ADCs building it and aren't acknowledging the huge sacrifice most of them are making to >stack lethality.

... What sacrifice?

Lethality is currently well balanced on the characters that were meant to build it - Assassins.

On ADCs, it grants extremely high damage to squishy targets. This would be find by itself. It's because Lethality is being stacked on top of Lord Dominiks and Black Cleaver that makes the issue. It means ADCs can shred through anything, even the tanks and fighters that are supposed to survive for an extensive length of time VS an ADC.

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

... What sacrifice?

Lethality is currently well balanced on the characters that were meant to build it - Assassins.

On ADCs, it grants extremely high damage to squishy targets. This would be find by itself. It's because Lethality is being stacked on top of Lord Dominiks and Black Cleaver that makes the issue. It means ADCs can shred through anything, even the tanks and fighters that are supposed to survive for an extensive length of time VS an ADC.

And ADCs will shred through anything with Crit/AS/percentage pen (tanks included) but their DPS is significantly higher. Full glass cannon champions are going to hurt no matter what they build, especially when they build a stat intended to deal with tanks. The point is, AS/Crit is just as effective at killing tanks/squishies but has higher DPS. But it's also weak most of the game because it requires about 3-4 items to scale. But flat lethality doesn't hurt tanks until percentage pen is purchased, so really, what's the difference at that point? As I stated in a previous post, I'm not even sure that's a bad thing because fuck Crit.

RalanrFeb 17, 20172 votes

I think the difference is that it's giving these ADCs a good early game without sacrificing much for their late game.

Effectively they gained the power curve of Draven, except they don't have a minigame to justify "good damage all game"

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I think the difference is that it's giving these ADCs a good early game without sacrificing much for their late game.

Effectively they gained the power curve of Draven, except they don't have a minigame to justify "good damage all game"

And the inverse of that is ADCs with broken mechanics and Crit to be decent. I don't know if that's a good thing man, I really don't. I am obviously biased here so I'll check myself on that one because I hate Crit.

And tanks are still exceptionlly strong against flat lethality, which is what ADCs are going to have since they won't have percentage pen yet. So again, the only difference is ADCs have a stronger early game compared to where they once were but this doesn't negatively impact tanks at that point.

And I still consider the lethality/percentage pen build to be a great deal weaker to a full glass Crit/AS DPS build because lethality builds are still heavily gated by cooldowns and don't have the damage amp on auto attacks (and an increased damage amp available in the form of IE) that Crit provides.

RalanrFeb 17, 20172 votes

So basically the best option is to let ADCs be good all game? Cause that's what I'm getting from you.

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So basically the best option is to let ADCs be good all game? Cause that's what I'm getting from you.

If we significantly trim their power late game, yes absolutely I'm fine with that. That could open the door to other classes being played bot lane.

AhristocatsFeb 17, 20174 votes

{quoted}

This is the problem. You're equating me saying lethality isn't responsible for melting tanks to lethality isn't broken. Of course lethality is fucking broken and we all it is and will be adjusted.

ok? it still affects tanks or aren't you reading?

And of course> {quoted} But people are bitching about ADCs building it and aren't acknowledging the huge sacrifice most of them are making to stack lethality

the sacrifice is late game power due to the lack of crit and attack speed lethality is still great at destroying tanks when combined with %armor pen

it's less effective than crit, but still effective, if you want to know why scroll up a little

{quoted} hey aren't going to 100-0 a tank because of the tanks raw HP - not to mention, if your AD caster is blowing their entire combo on a tank, that's a good thing for the tanks team.

nobody said anything about 100-0 a tank, but about killing a tank efficiently, it's not 100-0 but you're going to kill it in 4 or 5 seconds with 3 physical damage dealer which is the main point of the discussion

{quoted} And lastly I didn't call you a tank main. I'm speaking generally in this regard because it applies generally.

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-02-17T18:43:24.573+0000)

ok? it still affects tanks or aren't you reading?

I'm not saying it doesn't impact them, I'm saying once you buy percentage pen, it does and any stat that would benefit from that percentage pen will obvious impact them. Percentage pen is the real offender, not lethality. And as I stated, if your beef was with percentage pen being a problem then that'd be a valid platform to have. I disagree with that statement but see it as valid nevertheless.

In short, these champions were going to build a stat to ignore armor regardless.

the sacrifice is late game power due to the lack of crit and attack speed

Yes and for ADCs that's a big sacrifice. But I want people to consider this: is that so bad? Crit is such a stupid stat, maybe Riot should focus on a damage amp similar to lethality for marksmen so we can finally remove Crit and rework Tryndamere and Yasuo accordingly - it's not like they both aren't in need of a rework anyway.

lethality is still great at destroying tanks when combined with %armor pen

So what? So is raw AD. So is raw AP. Both raw AD and raw AP are good at deleting squishies, too. Lethality was created to make it less oppressive when ahead but less shitty when behind. Obviously we sit in a case of breaking that rule and being the exception because lethality is overtuned but that will change. In a nutshell, that's all I really want people to understand and that's not unreasonable.

nobody said anything about 100-0 a tank, but about killing a tank efficiently, it's not 100-0 but you're going to kill it in 4 or 5 seconds with 3 physical damage dealer which is the main point of the discussion

That's total bullsht! Regardless of their damage type, 3 damage dealers (what a team will typically have) taking 4-5 seconds to kill a tank is completely in line and acceptable. That's so fucking unreasonable to think that your 10k investment in items should ignore 30k of the enemies investment. It's doing a damn good job of reducing that 30k gold investment by virtue of it taking 3 full glass cannon damage dealers just to kill 1 champion in 4-5 seconds.

AhristocatsFeb 17, 20171 votes

sure, i'll leave right there then

taking 4 or 5 seconds to kill a tank is acceptable, which is why they aren't played anymore lel

my gragas was under W, E+flash in the enemy team but get hooked by thresh stopping his E, then during the duration of thresh hook he gets dropped to 30% hp and forced to flash out

tell me more about tanks killed in 4 seconds acceptable

i hope that during the tank rework riot fixes that, because it's not and the only way a tank is relevant right now is having a retarded damage in mid game like maokai or poppy

tanks are fine, tell me more about it

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T19:04:32.726+0000)

sure, i'll leave right there then

taking 4 or 5 seconds to kill a tank is acceptable, which is why they aren't played anymore lel

my gragas was under W, E+flash in the enemy team but get hooked by thresh stopping his E, then during the duration of thresh hook he gets dropped to 30% hp and forced to flash out

tell me more about tanks killed in 4 seconds acceptable

i hope that during the tank rework riot fixes that, because it's not and the only way a tank is relevant right now is having a retarded damage in mid game like maokai or poppy

tanks are fine, tell me more about it

We just had a patch where they were busted and we went from one extreme to another - busted tanks to busted glass cannons. Busted glass cannons doesn't mean tanks can't do their jobs, busted glass cannon means glass cannon is so damn good, pick 3-4 glass cannon champions and end games in 25 minutes because you can instagib enemy squishes so quickly.

We've had about 4-5 good tanks in the last few patches competitively. That would suggest a good portion of them are fine. But that doesn't mean I'm opposed to the idea of weak tanks getting buffs either.

At this point, there's no argument to be had here. Your posts have devolved to emotional and anecdotal rhetoric (incomplete and lacking in full details at that) so there's no point having this discussion with you anymore because you aren't willing to be reasonable and logically sound.

Glory ln DeathFeb 17, 20171 votes

So 3-5 squishy burst champs on every team = glass cannon champs are busted.

But 1 tank and a chunky diver on teams = tanks are busted?

I'm not following your logic.

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T22:17:33.776+0000)

So 3-5 squishy burst champs on every team = glass cannon champs are busted.

But 1 tank and a chunky diver on teams = tanks are busted?

I'm not following your logic.

When those tanks are virtually unkillable while also having the damage to solo squishy champions, yes that's a problem.

Glory ln DeathFeb 17, 20171 votes

Oooooohhh. Ok, I gotcha.

So, what you actually meant to type was that there was a patch or two where Poppy and maybe Maokai were busted.

Might want to go back and edit that.

HateDaddyFeb 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-02-17T23:28:59.171+0000)

Oooooohhh. Ok, I gotcha.

So, what you actually meant to type was that there was a patch or two where Poppy and maybe Maokai were busted.

Might want to go back and edit that.

Nautilus was equally busted. As was Zac. You could even argue Shen fell into that category.

RalanrFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Is it that terrible that tanks are dying to full pen, glass cannon full build champs?

It's admittedly weird to die easily against a build that's best used against squishies. Makes it seem like it is the best of both worlds.

That's the thought anyway.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 17, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Is it that terrible that tanks are dying to full pen, glass cannon full build champs?

Should tanks not die to someone whos fully investing on their build to deal with armor?

Except lethality is an investment to hurt squishies not tanks and juggernauts.

The problem is that these moron ADs are allowed to get away with building lethality because they know they can just tack on an LW item and the way the game calculates things they get to ignore a shitload of a tanks armor. Lethality users are allowed to bypass lethality's intended weakness of being shit against armor and HP stackers by stacking % with their flat.

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

It doesnt affect them like everyone because 1 Chain Vest = all your lethality is gone xd Going from 70% to 50% damage reduction because someone built 5 pen items... doesnt sound that bad to me.

AhristocatsFeb 17, 20174 votes

someone didn't build 5 pen items, black cleaver is a debuff and can be built on someone else, i'm tired of support miss fortune buying it

so yeah, going from 70% to 50% is extremely noticeable

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

BC alone doesnt make you go to 120 armor tho, it makes you go to 210, which is still like 68% dmg reduction.

RalanrFeb 17, 20171 votes

What's the total armor here?

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

Sahn UzalFeb 17, 201712 votes

Are they?

I've seen lots of Lethality complaints, but I don't think I've seen Tank players specifically complain about it.

RalanrFeb 17, 201712 votes

I'm not sure how people can tell honestly.

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

Well I see a lot of people saying tanks are bad because of lethality.. Meanwhile a Chain Vest almost negates all Lethality items at once lel

RalanrFeb 17, 20178 votes

How about when LDR is added?

PennsFeb 17, 20172 votes

Then its still negated by 50 armor. Also Id say a build with 5 pen items + boots should shred tanks.. What else should it do?

RalanrFeb 17, 20175 votes

A chain vest is +40 bonus armor. LDR bypasses 18 armor (that's 45% if I did my math right) leaving 22 bonus armor.

Then with all three lethality items we get a current total of 50 Lethality.

Now there's a lot of math to consider that I'm not sure how to do and I'm certain someone else can. But there's something you said that bugs me.

5 pen items + boots should shred a tank.

This is actually kinda incorrect in league. You get basic pen items to do more damage against champions with little to no resistances. That's probably why there aren't many magic pen items, because there aren't as much magic resistance gear compared to armor and not all champions get MR per level.

Basic pen is supposed to suck against heavy resistance champions, while %pen is supposed to work well.

I think the point that the complainers are making (and I'm still on the fence) is that these pen builds are providing the best of both worlds.

Imagine a tank building only armor against an all magic damage team and still doesn't get hurt. That's how "dumb" it is considered.

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

Well, they do suck against tanks. Say you have Tabi + an armor item + 60 base armor, around 170 armor. LDR only reduces that to 120, all lethality items to 70. That still almost cuts damage in half. With 1 1/2 armor items vs 4 pen items.

RalanrFeb 17, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Well, they do suck against tanks. Say you have Tabi + an armor item + 60 base armor, around 170 armor. LDR only reduces that to 120, all lethality items to 70. That still almost cuts damage in half. With 1 1/2 armor items vs 4 pen items.

Are you accounting for Lethality Runes that get stacked?

PennsFeb 17, 20171 votes

No but I also counted 50 lethality as 50 armor pen, but you have 60 base armor at like level 9-10. 50 lethality is ~40 armor pen there, so with lethality runes 50 armor pen is pretty accurate.

RalanrFeb 17, 20171 votes

Yeah, though if I remember correctly, full Lethality reds brings that up to 60 lethality.

Fondling GemsFeb 17, 20172 votes

Did the math a while back, you can hit 92.5? lethality with just masteries, runes and items, closer to 77.5 if you don't throw in the random serrated dirk.

RalanrFeb 17, 20171 votes

Maybe you can help me here.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/QXkLYEXf-can-someone-help-me-with-the-math

Fondling GemsFeb 17, 20172 votes

Here is the "flat reduction" article I made. Has everything through items then through in the champs that can reduce it + exhaust for fun.

Amusingly you can hit 212.5 flat armour pen for a couple seconds, although the team that does this does quite a bit of magic damage, although I suppose AD Rammus is an option with his passive.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N0hE30sW-did-some-lethality-math

AMYS GRAVEFeb 17, 20173 votes

So the tank is left with 70 armor which almost cuts the pen builder's damage in half.

Except those who build pen have base armor (most have 70-90) which cuts the tanks damage in half as well so the tank's armor built is doing nothing, while the free armor the squishy gets is doing exactly the same thing against the tank.

Red WreckageFeb 17, 20171 votes

"Tabi + an armor item + 60 base armor"

only 2 items.....

against 4 items....

in what world, should the "tank" in example survive against the other?

AMYS GRAVEFeb 17, 20173 votes

My point was that those who build armor pen get armor too, so insinuating that its the pen builders damage is cut while ignoring that the tanks damage is cut too is misleading.

Yes the calculations shown in the other person's post aren't the most representative, but that wasn't my point.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 17, 20176 votes

Well a flat pen build shouldn't shred tanks, squishies, neutral objectives, and turrets alike. When it is the optimal stat for taking down everything with no drawbacks there is a problem. We used to have to chose full AD builds to siege better, or pen builds to kill champions better, but now you don't need to think about what you want your build to achieve.

PennsFeb 17, 20172 votes

Flat pen build doesnt shred tanks tho, Lord Dominiks + Cleaver does.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 17, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Flat pen build doesnt shred tanks tho, Lord Dominiks + Cleaver does.

But then u build those on top of a lot of lethality and u get to delete squishies and still shred tanks. Thats a problem. You should invest to destroy one and not the other.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 17, 20173 votes

But you can have a full flat pen build, but as long as someone on your team gets cleaver you still shred the tank because the cleaver takes you from a tanks armor to a squishies armor, then flat pen applies and you've got no armor left.

LankPantsFeb 18, 20171 votes

Well I'm a tank player and I hate lethality, I've seen lots of people who aren't tank players and hate lethality too. It's easy to hate a bullshit stat regardless of what you play.

Kledy McKledFaceFeb 17, 201711 votes

I thought turrets were the ones complaining

HateDaddyFeb 17, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kledy McKledFace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mUUNepym,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-02-17T16:15:34.063+0000)

I thought turrets were the ones complaining

Turrets suck, agreed. That didn't suddenly become a problem though.