Lulu wouldn't have needed half the nerfs she got bc of solo lane if she couldn't ult herself

FalconPawwwwnch·Oct 6, 2015·33 votes·2,600 views

Boom, solo lane Lulu is done, support lulu can get back a ton of nerfs which wouldn't affect her

55 Comments

Drunk TsundereOct 6, 201516 votes

The issue is that Riot doesn't think solo lane Lulu is toxic. They LIKE her in the mid/top lane. So any changes we make to her can't remove her from solo lanes.

Personally, I believe that itemization for AP Supports (Sona, Nami, Lulu, etc) is really bad and needs to be looked at. Itemization is the reason why Spellthief's Supports are terrible right now. If we buffed Spellthief's Edge, it wouldn't affect solo lane Lulu in the slightest, but could bring significant buffs to Support Lulu.

1000angrybeesOct 6, 20155 votes

I literally don't bother upgrading spellthief (at least until late game... and even then, I'd rather just sell it) because I'm better off just getting items that fit the support I'm playing than wasting gold on upgrades that suck. +5 ap and +25% base mana regen on frost fang? for 500? what is that? that's atrocious. It should at least give you +10 AP and 1 extra gold per 10. Not to mention Frost Queen doesn't even upgrade to 75% mana regen or any extra gold. The active is sort of here nor there. Not bad, but not very good either.

windwolf777Oct 6, 20157 votes

Call me bad but honestly I don't really like item 3092 on AP supports an instead prefer item 3069 . I like the burst of speed and mp5 better than the mini nuke. (Then again the only ap support I play is Nami )

YormaughmOct 6, 20151 votes

I main support and I agree that item 3069 is generally better than item 3303 . Though honestly is outclassed by item 3800 IMO. The only problem is that has no gold stacking mechanic. I typically buy and then try to build after my sightstone and just sell .

StarcallOct 6, 20151 votes

Items are a lot more champion specific then you make it out to be.

GhiefelsteinOct 6, 20156 votes

I would also like to go Ancient Coin with Lulu. I don't understand why Riot tries to force Spellthief's on Lulu support like in the last patch with her. Was limiting her options even further really necessary?

Sire HippingtonOct 6, 20152 votes

how did that limit her options? coin isn't any worse than it was befor, it was more increaseing her options as you can now atleast consider spellthief's rather than going coin all the time as coin is simply superrior as an item right now(or well, it's upgrades are)

GorgannanOct 6, 20151 votes

But she was nerfed, with a compensatory buff to her application of frost fang.

RisenDarkKnightOct 6, 20151 votes

Yeah no reason to get spellthiefs on lulu when that line of items is so weak now. You can spend your mana harassing a champion that is getting 5-10 hp every time a minion dies near them only to get way less passive gold over a long game or you can just buy/nomad's yourself and actually be able upgrade it to a useful item.

CatastropOct 6, 20151 votes

Me neither, I just get the Frostfang and and sell it later for Talisman.

Drunk TsundereOct 6, 20152 votes

You're completely right. And that's a problem. Spellthief was literally made for Supports like Nami. So when not even Nami builds it anymore, you can tell that Spellthief's is garbage.

Athenes LuluOct 6, 20156 votes

Yeah spellthief and its upgrades need buffs. No reason to NOT get coin unless you're Morg/Annie/etc, they don't need mana regen. Traditional supports DO.

RisenDarkKnightOct 6, 20151 votes

I main morgana and I actually get coin on her now. Talisman is more useful than Frostqueens IMO and I get more gold generation (especially after laning phase ends and enemies aren't in range of tormented soil) from nomad's, and tormented soil barely does any damage so spending 70 mana superfrequently to get gold and potentially push the wave when I don't want to vs. gettting healing greater than the extra damage I deal and passive gold that doesn't cost mana I've switched to getting coin. I still get spellthiefs on zyra/vel koz, but that's because I just build them straight ap after sighstone, rather than upgrading the support item.

RisenDarkKnightOct 6, 20151 votes

Yeah they halved the passive gold from frostfang a while ago and it has become a terrible upgrade ever since. They should either buff it midway to 3 gp 10 from 2 (was 4 on release) or they should buff the damage you get from the stacks. Spelltheifs -> frostfang goes from 10 -> 15 damage per stack (so 30-> 45 damage per combo if you have all 3 stacks). If they buffed that to 20 damage per stack (so 60 damage per combo), it would at least make frostfang a little more viable.

Maximum MordeOct 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I literally don't bother upgrading spellthief (at least until late game... and even then, I'd rather just sell it) because I'm better off just getting items that fit the support I'm playing than wasting gold on upgrades that suck. +5 ap and +25% base mana regen on frost fang? for 500? what is that? that's atrocious. It should at least give you +10 AP and 1 extra gold per 10. Not to mention Frost Queen doesn't even upgrade to 75% mana regen or any extra gold. The active is sort of here nor there. Not bad, but not very good either.

I almost never even buy spellthief. The coin usually serves me more reliably. If I'm winning, It probably wasn't because of the spellthief. If I'm losing, the spellthief and it's upgrades usually aren't as effective as the coin and it's upgrades.

YumaS2AstralOct 6, 201511 votes

Why get rid of one of her playstyles just to favor another?

It is the same as getting rid of her base values on her damage and her utility and increasing the scalings, buffing solo-lane Lulu but killing support Lulu.

Chespin2013Oct 6, 20158 votes

But sololane Lulu is fun as hell I love turning the enemy Tryndamere into a squirrel and than throw glitter at him. Yes Lulu is a strong sololaner but she is by no means overbearing. She is only really strong of how much utility she has. We shouldn't have to delete a fun game style that isn't toxic really by any means and that brings something fun to play in the game. Should we change every champion and make them only playable in the intended role that Riot planned out for them? Should Blitzcrank just be made to be a toplaner like how he was originally planned instead of a support or make Morgana only usable in the Midlane instead of being a support?

High5Oct 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But sololane Lulu is fun as hell I love turning the enemy Tryndamere into a squirrel and than throw glitter at him. Yes Lulu is a strong sololaner but she is by no means overbearing. She is only really strong of how much utility she has. We shouldn't have to delete a fun game style that isn't toxic really by any means and that brings something fun to play in the game. Should we change every champion and make them only playable in the intended role that Riot planned out for them? Should Blitzcrank just be made to be a toplaner like how he was originally planned instead of a support or make Morgana only usable in the Midlane instead of being a support?

Well said.

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But sololane Lulu is fun as hell I love turning the enemy Tryndamere into a squirrel and than throw glitter at him. Yes Lulu is a strong sololaner but she is by no means overbearing. She is only really strong of how much utility she has. We shouldn't have to delete a fun game style that isn't toxic really by any means and that brings something fun to play in the game. Should we change every champion and make them only playable in the intended role that Riot planned out for them? Should Blitzcrank just be made to be a toplaner like how he was originally planned instead of a support or make Morgana only usable in the Midlane instead of being a support?

The problem is that Lulu isn't really viable in bot lane, but Riot can't safely buff her because that would make her toxic in solo lane. You're right, at present solo lane Lulu isn't a problem, BUT support Lulu is far too weak.

This mostly has to do with how strong tank supports are and the fact that Riot has given tank supports every opportunity to shrug off poke (heals on Relic Shield, insanely slot efficient stats on FotM, Tahm Kench literally getting an ability that lets him regenerate poke). But because we can't just nerf the entire tank support class, we need ways to buff poke supports up to try and bring them under control.

If you buff AP utility items, mid laners will take them. If you buff AP support's ratios, they'll go back to solo lanes. If you buff Frostfang, it becomes an effective buy on mid laners (doesn't matter if you never use the Tribute passive if you're just getting gold over time and better stats than Doran's Ring).

The solution is to nerf Targon's and then to return AP supports to their original form where they had high bases and no scalings. If you do that, though, supports with their new gold income will become insanely tanky no matter who they are, and Riot doesn't want tank healers to be a thing.

So...yeah. No easy fix here.

RedCycloneOct 6, 20157 votes

Just sounds like a harmful way to effect Lulu I often enjoy a more tanky route when playing her, can throw myself/get caught out and ult to cause havok

Athenes LuluOct 6, 20151 votes

Not when some idiot can flash in, ult self, and then mash Q that dealt 700 damage.

HELL YEAH LCSBIGPLAYS HURR DURR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HiemdolOct 6, 20152 votes

700 damage? Lulu's Q at rank five has 260 base damage with a .5 ap scaling. To deal the additional 440 damage you would need 880 ap. Any one with 880 ap would be dealing an absurd amount of damage. Frankly nearly every mage would deal way more damage because even counting the scaling on her E she has a totaly damaging ratio of .9. That is super low.

Lulu does have a strong mid game power spike because of her decent base damages but like I said at the point in the game when carries can have 880 ap (which is an absurd amount) Lulu's damage is the least of your worries.

StarcallOct 6, 20156 votes

So ruin her and make her unfun like they did to Soraka? OHHH K

Ferus and FerrumOct 7, 20151 votes

Judging by your name you were a fan of old raka with the point and click silence/mana sustain, free self heal and targeted mr shred damage. You know how fun that shit was to play against midlane? 0% it was like when AP janna was strong. Bitch deletes the minion wave and harasses you in 1 tornado.

StarcallOct 11, 20151 votes

Soraka mid wasn't even played season 1 or beta it was only played after the ap ratio nerfed so please don't try to talk about "old raka".

Ferus and FerrumOct 11, 20151 votes

Huh?

Sozan5Oct 6, 20154 votes

I don't agree with that change - and besides, it would hurt support Lulu just as hard as solo Lulu.

How about something that really won't hurt her support?

"Glitterlance (Q) now deals only 50% damage to minions."

This would hurt her waveclear a lot, and thus make her much weaker in solo lanes.

GorgannanOct 6, 20153 votes

And if you go AP Lulu supp, you won't steal an entire wave trying to harass.

But they'd need a big fat buff to make up for a nerf that big for solo.

Sozan5Oct 6, 20152 votes

Meh, just a slight buff here and there. Maybe buff either:

Base Stats (revert the health nerf for example)
Base Ability Damage (revert the nerf from E for example)
Ability Power scaling

Sire HippingtonOct 6, 20154 votes

while thats true, it's a similar bullshit way of enforcing her as duolaner as what they done to morde... Is it really worth to butcher sololane lulu for support lulu rather than trying to get both viable?

Also, i feel the main reason why she isn't as good as support is that poke supports overall are slightly to weak. If we wouls slightly nerf the health sustain from coin and relic and buff the upgrades off the spellthief line, it would already change a whole lot.

Fitz n The FoolOct 6, 20154 votes

Lulu is not even a problem in solo queue. Wtf is this all about

Funkin DunkinOct 6, 20152 votes

Riot will put champs where they want them regardless how people feel. Just look at how they killed lane Skarner and put him permanently in the jungle.

EedatOct 6, 20153 votes

RIP Jungle Nautilus

Malicious MetalOct 6, 20151 votes

And RIP his metal buddy Solo Mordekaiser

Baron of BreadOct 6, 20151 votes

You can still jungle with Nautilus to good effect. It's not like his jungle was nerfed aside from Cinderhulk.

LissamaOct 6, 20152 votes

Just nerf her AP scales Q and E (damage only, not shield). Boom, Problem solved.

GorgannanOct 6, 20152 votes

If they did that, they would have to SIGNIFICANTLY buff her. She's insanely squishy, and can't be bothered only using her shield and MS on herself.

They'd have to buff the duration of polymorph to like, 2.5 seconds at all ranks, and give her a lot more mana regen.

RogueWillOct 6, 20151 votes

I always though she was a solo laner first and a support second. Sure, she might have been originally conceptualized as a support but she has seen far more play as solo laner than support.

High5Oct 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I always though she was a solo laner first and a support second. Sure, she might have been originally conceptualized as a support but she has seen far more play as solo laner than support.

I don't know what original design was, but she's really no stronger than other control mages like Ori, Vik, Azir, etc. She also provides a decent counter to some assassins like Akili and Kat, but not all.

I love Lulu.

IcyPepperOct 6, 20151 votes

That sounds like a reverse Mordekaiser rework :/

Curling VeigarOct 6, 20151 votes

Nice.

A Miss FortuneOct 6, 20151 votes

If you want to nerf Top/Mid Lulu and buff Support Lulu, I think giving her a new passive would be a great place to start. Right now Solo Lulu can be pretty toxic since she doesn't have that many fall offs at all besides a form of sustain, and her passive is one of the reasons why her Solo is very rarely counterable. She can very easily and reliably farm without her abilities, poke without her abilities, and win a lot of duels/trades because of her passive. Her passive basically gives her a ton of free AD. I think changing the passive to better fit Lulu Support (as it isn't that great as her Support) would e the best way to start. On top of that I feel like her passive is so random for her theme. Sure it incorporates Pix, but I think her shield when activated could still give Pix's auto attacks to the one with it if her passive were to be changed?

SKOBODOOct 6, 20151 votes

Remember that if they change Lulu this way they could compensate in other ways, potentially keeping solo lane Lulu an option without making her overbearing. She could still use her ultimate in teamfights and when someone comes to gank, but she'd be weaker against ganks and in 1v1s. It's obviously a pretty big change, but it'd open up for opportunities to buff her in some other way, and considering her World's ban ratio I find it fairly likely that she'll get some more nerfs.

RozairOct 6, 20151 votes

Merc treads reduce squirrel time. next post

LuckyOct 6, 20151 votes

Yeah cause she would be complete garbage

RisenDarkKnightOct 6, 20151 votes

The problem with this is that riot isnt' exactly known for reverting nerfs. They will most likely look at this and make lulu not able to ult herself, but then not buff support lulu in any way for months. Then after about a year she'll either be buffed enough to be almost viable as support and they'll put her on the rework list for 2018.

foristOct 6, 20151 votes

You know she'll just wait for a gank then ult the jungler, rite?

QueenAquaOct 6, 20151 votes

But then supp Lulu suffers as well. It takes away her ability to MAKE plays instead of cause them. The knock-up caused by her ults allows her to ult herself in the middle of the enemy team and set up a nice teamfight. Majority of the time, the ult on someone else never quite pans out right due to positioning. If a Lulu is in the middle of a team, it's to be in the right position for that team-wide knock-up. Maybe reduce the amount of health gained if she uses it on herself if you want to hurt solo lane Lulu. Also, the main problem with solo lane Lulu isn't her ult. It's the vast range she has with that e and q combo and the scaling of the q. They could nerf the dmg in the q and ap scaling, and supp Lulu would barely feel it.