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@Riot I'm getting sick and tired of you guys gutting alternative playstyles

Koechophe·Feb 1, 2015·4 votes·635 views

It's always the same pattern. Changes are made to a champ, riot promises to preserve the alternative style and then they gut it. We've observed this pattern so many times it's not even funny. Now, with the recent remake of Tristana, it's horribly evident.

Riot promised to preserve AP trist, but here are the facts. -Her ult went from a 1.4 ratio to 1 -Her E went from 280 base damage to 200 base damage max, now requires 4 auto attacks to work and lost its grevious wounds -DFG, which was beyond core on her, was removed without any compensation whatsoever.

Now she's a high-risk low-reward champion that really has no defining aspect to her kit, and all she would need are simple number improvements to make her viable. I acknowledge that the style was binary and low-counterplay as an AP, but the rework has solved those problems for both AP and AD, giving her dynamic areas to play around. But riot gutted it for no real reason after explicitely saying they wouldn't do so. We've seen this pattern over and over again, and it's getting old.

4 Comments

Matthias9119Feb 1, 20152 votes

-Her ult went from a 1.4 ratio to 1

Well, the wiki says it used to be 1.5, but S@20 says 1.2 in the article on the update. So now I'm confused. But it was lowered, yes.

-Her E went from 280 base damage to 200 base damage max, now requires 4 auto attacks to work and lost its grevious wounds

W went from:

70/115/160/205/250 + (0.8 * AP)

to a minimum of:

80/105/130/155/180 + (0.5 * AP)

and a maximum of:

160/210/260/310/360 + (1.0 * AP)

E went from:

80/125/180/215/260 + (1.0 * AP) (over time, magic damage)

to a minimum of:

60/70/80/90/100 + ( .5/.65/.8/.95/1.1 * AD) + (0.5 * AP) (burst, physical)

and a maximum of:

120/140/160/180/200 + (1.0/1.3/1.6/1.9/2.2 * AD) + (1.0 * AP) (burst, physical)

If you stack E all the way and then land W you now get:

280/350/400/490/560 + (1.0/1.3/1.6/1.9/2.2 * AD) + (2.0 * AP)

in one shot. If you land R as well you're getting as much as 1160 + (2.2 * AD) + (3.0 * AP), which is still a lot of damage. Plus E works on towers, which means AP Trist is going to knock down towers almost as fast as AD Trist. You lose a little AP ratio compared to her old combo (1010 + (3.5 * AP)), but you get really strong AD scaling and it's all burst rather than a big chunk of it being tied up in a DOT.

It's definitely a playstyle change. She needs some AD and AP now -- guessing Gunblade + Nashor's would work well, then go AP from there. E going from magic to physical means MPen isn't quite as good, but hybrid damage is also harder to itemize against, so that might be a wash.

-DFG, which was beyond core on her, was removed without any compensation whatsoever.

I think her burst is gonna be fine if you build her right. But it's harder to get off her maximum damage combo now.

KoechopheFeb 1, 20151 votes

Have you actually tried playing her? The idea that you can land E + 4 auto attacks + W in a short space of time without getting blown up by the enemy laner is, quite franky, ridiculous. And then if you do actually land her full E, it feels terrible, with it's base of 200 damage.

Also consider that moving her damage from her E to her W hurts DPS a lot because not only is W leveled later (which means less damage early game) but on a longer CD and sometimes necessary for escape.

And losing DFG is HUGE. It was the must-build item. It'd be like taking IE away from adcs without compensation buffs. Essentially, it's now infinitely harder to pull off her burst-combo which is far less damage than it used to be. If you don't believe me, play her. It feels absolutely terrible.

And your numbers you list, 1160 + (3.0 AP), isn't that impressive, especially since you have to land 4 auto attacks, go into melee range with no escape and blow your whole kit. Compare to LB, whose burst combo is 1435 + 3.7 AP and is easier with a built-in escape, or even 1285 +3.1 ap without landing distortion. Or compare it to Fizz, whose burst combo is even more reliable and clocks in at 1180 + 3.0, as well as lichbane adding to the ratio, and it still falls behind.

Matthias9119Feb 1, 20151 votes

I don't usually play AP Trist unless I pull her in ARAM. But I have tried it a few times.

The idea that you can land E + 4 auto attacks + W in a short space of time without getting blown up by the enemy laner is, quite franky, ridiculous.

Early on it would be tough if you're not leveling Q, I guess. Although if they don't back off you can W on their head and deal massive damage that most champs can't possibly outtrade pre-6.

And then if you do actually land her full E, it feels terrible, with it's base of 200 damage.

At max rank and ideal usage it lost 60 base damage and gained a 2.2 AD ratio. Even without building any AD that's a substantial damage increase.

Also consider that moving her damage from her E to her W hurts DPS a lot because not only is W leveled later (which means less damage early game) but on a longer CD and sometimes necessary for escape.

Depends. Rank 1 of W with full stacks of E does more damage than it used to (was (70 + (0.8* AP)), now (160 + 1.0 * AP)) -- plus it sets off the E damage in one big burst). If you're using W offensively then you are probably going to have E on them first. But you do have to set up the play for the increased damage.

And losing DFG is HUGE.

That and giving E a substantial AD ratio probably kills your ability to itemize 100% into AP. Like I said, the playstyle and build has to change.

And your numbers you list, 1160 + (3.0 AP), isn't that impressive, especially since you have to land 4 auto attacks, go into melee range with no escape and blow your whole kit.

Well, it's 1160 + 3.0AP + 2.2AD, for starters -- even without building any AD at all that's an extra ~220 physical damage at level 18. And you'd potentially want to count the 4xAA damage as well. The idea is you only all-in if the burst is going to kill them, which resets Rocket Jump and gives you an escape.

Compare to LB, whose burst combo is 1435 + 3.7 AP and is easier with a built-in escape, or even 1285 +3.1 ap without landing distortion. Or compare it to Fizz, whose burst combo is even more reliable and clocks in at 1180 + 3.0, as well as lichbane adding to the ratio, and it still falls behind.

Compared to LB, Trist can deal a lot more sustained damage and kills objectives way better. Compared to Fizz -- she's ranged! Fizz also has to use his escape ability on offense if he wants to maximize his damage, which leaves him a sitting duck.

Trist can land E and then decide whether it's a good idea to W in for the kill or not, and if she gets the kill she can either press her advantage or W back out. Those champs will have more straight-up AP burst, sure, but the kits are totally different.

KoechopheFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't usually play AP Trist unless I pull her in ARAM. But I have tried it a few times.

Early on it would be tough if you're not leveling Q, I guess. Although if they don't back off you can W on their head and deal massive damage that most champs can't possibly outtrade pre-6.

If you level W early on, your waveclear is non-existent and your main damage move has a cd of 22-14 seconds and it STILL needs E to be effective. That's not a good strategy

At max rank and ideal usage it lost 60 base damage and gained a 2.2 AD ratio. Even without building any AD that's a substantial damage increase.

It's a BONUS ad ratio, not total. That is NOT a susbstantial damage increase, it's a substantial decreasse. And 60 base damage away from the spell is huge.

Depends. Rank 1 of W with full stacks of E does more damage than it used to (was (70 + (0.8* AP)), now (160 + 1.0 * AP)) -- plus it sets off the E damage in one big burst). If you're using W offensively then you are probably going to have E on them first. But you do have to set up the play for the increased damage

Again, try playing her. In lane, if you level W then E does no damage, you have no waveclear and you're pretty much a terrible laner. If you level E, your highest burst has a terrible base damage.

That and giving E a substantial AD ratio probably kills your ability to itemize 100% into AP. Like I said, the playstyle and build has to change.

You're missing the point. If "Hybrid" trystiana is viable, where you build minimal amounts of AP, then AP tristana is still gutted. But hybrid is quite frankly stupid; your E does more damage AD than hybrid and the auto attack damage differential is just too big to ignore.

Well, it's 1160 + 3.0AP + 2.2AD, for starters -- even without building any AD at all that's an extra ~220 physical damage at level 18. And you'd potentially want to count the 4xAA damage as well. The idea is you only all-in if the burst is going to kill them, which resets Rocket Jump and gives you an escape.

BONUS AD. Seriously, I've said it like 10 times. It's BONUS Ad, not base.

Compared to LB, Trist can deal a lot more sustained damage and kills objectives way better. Compared to Fizz -- she's ranged! Fizz also has to use his escape ability on offense if he wants to maximize his damage, which leaves him a sitting duck.

In what world does trist have better sustained damage? Her cooldowns are all way longer, especially her ult.

Trist can land E and then decide whether it's a good idea to W in for the kill or not, and if she gets the kill she can either press her advantage or W back out. Those champs will have more straight-up AP burst, sure, but the kits are totally different.

From your comments, you clearly haven;t played her, or else haven't played her against someone good. She sucks like crazy in lane, but in teamfights, no one's going to let you pull a E=4 autos-W-R combo unless they're extremely stupid. You're squishy and you'll either get blown up or end up using your W (your biggest damage spell) as an escape. The kit is gutted, quit trying to argue otherwise.

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