Look, You can't just "Remove" Crit.

Guy Fox Teemo·Sep 29, 2015·10 votes·1,701 views

It's stapled to the meta so greatly currently. That removing it would need the entire marksman class revised (Not just the "Marksman" updates there doing thats different) There damage would be GREATLY reduced and tanks would suddenly be extremely overpowered as it would be a lot harder to melt them, even if you made the current crit a damage amplifier like Ashe's passive (Then you would also need to rework ashe again lol)

Thats just my 2 cents, I agree crit has a bit to much RNG (Although, it's actually set to crit certain, times within a amount of hits) But come up with a decent solution first, not just remove and then figure out how to balance the ADC class, reworking 17 champions heavily (Not like the small ones there doing currently) And revise all the items that had crit attached to them (9 items)

51 Comments

Sightless66Sep 29, 20155 votes

But come up with a decent solution first,

Easy. 1% crit chance = 1% increased autoattack damage. 1% increased crit damage would increase the damage given from the crit chance modifier by 1% (so, having an IE alone would give you 20% crit chance X 1.5 modifier = 30% increased autoattack damage). No numbers on items or champions are changed. This gives you the exact same expected DPS that you have right now. Same damage, no randomness.

The only change I can think of that would be truly necessary is rebalancing and possibly a small rework for Trynd, because he has an on-crit effect and because he relies on crit-fishing for his laning pattern. Ashe can keep the permaslow as her passive, and can be modified further if necessary. Outside of that, crit randomness isn't actually played around and it doesn't influence the balance of any specific champions or items positively or negatively, so there would be very little rebalancing necessary.

There damage would be GREATLY reduced and tanks would suddenly be extremely overpowered as it would be a lot harder to melt them, even if you made the current crit a damage amplifier

Damage would be reduced if we made the current crit a damage amplifier? Mind explaining your reasoning there? From where I stand having the exact same expected dps means AD carries would have very similar damage to what they have now.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20152 votes

You can't just change it to a damage amplifier and expect everything to smooth out. lol, They would become extremely tankier early on in the game, before you get 2 or 3 crit items. (It would also make vayne OP AS FUCK, even more lol)

Sightless66Sep 29, 20153 votes

You can't just change it to a damage amplifier and expect everything to smooth out.

Why not? It's the exact same dps. What's not going to work?

They would become extremely tankier early on in the game, before you get 2 or 3 crit items

Why? Seriously, why? I need an explanation, not just an assertion. It's the exact same dps. Literally, it's exactly the same. Mathematically, the dps is the exact same number, just without variance. I can prove this if you need me to. Why would this be worse against tanks? You really can't just say this without saying why. I need an explanation or we'll never get anyhwhere.

WalkingInACircleSep 29, 20151 votes

Having played Ashe its honestly stronger that way when you can rely on it. But you can't blow up an entire wave of creeps with one Jinx rocket I guess. The guy just wants to see big flashy numbers.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20151 votes

I.... What? How is 200% damage, to 125% or 150% = the same? You won't be building 100%, this crit build though would work to well on certain adc's , as adcs like Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, Corki, Etc. Rely on that RNG to do damage, since they're spell caster's and need to build ad items, not just infinity edge and rest crit.

WalkingInACircleSep 29, 20153 votes

200% damage on 20% of your attacks, as opposed to 120% of the damage on all of your attacks. In 10 attacks, on average, you'll do 12 attacks worth of damage. It's the same DPS, just with the randomness removed.

YCitizenSnipsYSep 29, 20151 votes

Doesn't that describe how raw ad works right now though? Correct me if I'm wrong but from reading that their would be no point in keeping a crit stat if there was no random power spike, ad and crit would basically serve the same purpose.

WalkingInACircleSep 29, 20153 votes

No, because its multiplicative. Raw AD is additive.

Once of the design concepts of the game is that offense outscales defense. Theres two main defensive traits you multiply, hp and resistances. And theres AD, attack speed, crit, and armor pen offensively.

SaiannaSep 29, 20151 votes

Your arguments are valid. It's pleasure to read them :)

Sightless66Sep 29, 20151 votes

Not really. This would give more damage based on how much AD you have. If I bought 20 AD, I would get 20 more damage on every attack. If I bought 20% crit chance, I would get 20 more damage per attack at 100 AD, 40 more damage per attack at 200 AD, 60 more damage per attack at 300 AD, etc. It also wouldn't work with AD ratios.

It's actually exactly the same %DPS increase that random crits are on live, just without being random. That's the beauty of it.

Sightless66Sep 29, 20151 votes

How is 200% damage, to 125% or 150% = the same?

Because it's every attack, whereas random crit does not activate every attack. This lets the expected damage be exactly the same. I'll prove this mathematically below.

You won't be building 100%, this crit build though would work to well on certain adc's

You don't need to. You won't need to build any more crit than you do right now. Why do you think they would need to?

Here, let me do some math and show you what I mean. Say that you have 20% crit chance and 100 AD with the random crit. If you attacked 10 times, you would expect to hit for 100 damage 8 times, and 200 damage twice. That would be 1,200 damage. There could be variance, but a core principle of variance is that it will favor increases and decreases at the same rate, meaning that the amount of times we'll get more damage than 1,200 should be exactly the same as the number

Now, say that we had 20% crit chance and 100 AD and attacked 10 times with a derandomized system. We would attack 10 times for (100 * 1.2 = 120) damage. 10 * 120 = 1,200 damage. That's the same number we had before. Same expected damage, and like I said before, variance does not systematically benefit or harm this number.

Just for kicks, let's prove that it works with IE too.. Say that we had IE and its crit bonus damage in the past equation. On live, our two crits would hit for 250 damage, so we'd do _**1,300 damage. **_With my system, every autoattack would hit for (100 * (20% * 1.5 = 30% = 1.30)), and 130 * 10 = 1,300 damage. See, exactly the same expected damage.

This will work with any numbers. Seriously, any numbers you choose, you'll get the exact same DPS. This means that you don't need any more crit than you would currently need. Whether you build 0%, 50% or 100%, you'll get the same expected dps before as you will now.

So, once again, I ask where, where do you see damage differences? Numbers, real situations and/or math would help a TON here.

MathbalnaseSep 29, 20151 votes

That's a terribly underdeveloped argument.

Like, HOW and WHY would 'they [...] become extremely tankier early on in the game', and who are 'they'? How and why would vayne become 'OP AS FUCK, even more'?

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20151 votes

Because vayne builds purely attack speed items, mostly until very late game. Her blade of ruined king plus, PD, Statik, and even ghost blade, would be ridiculous, as her builds based of DPS, and not having huge AA's, but consistent damage. The damage amplifier would allow vayne, to become even more dominant , as she currently doesn't have the instant burst other adc's have.

MathbalnaseSep 29, 20152 votes

Just as with current crit, smoothed %damage amplification crit would not multiply BotrK, or the bonus damage from Vayne's Q, or her W. Building relatively little AD, then, Vayne would receive relatively little benefit from smoothed %damage amplification crit, just as she does from current crit.

Aatrox HerselfSep 29, 20151 votes

Where did they say they are getting rid of crit? item 3070 Yasuo

5000000000000000Sep 29, 20151 votes

Marksmen itemization is being reworked soon, so removal of crit is being speculated.

Aatrox HerselfSep 29, 20151 votes

Removal of crit will effect everyone though, not just marksmen. Like my mains Yasuo and Shaco, Both have built in crit chance.

5000000000000000Sep 29, 20151 votes

Shaco has a guaranteed crit mechanic, but not built in crit chance.

I don't know about how removing crit will affect Yasuo, though.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20151 votes

Uhh.. Yasuo's entire damage is based off his Double Crit. Lol, without it he does , almost next to no damage.

5000000000000000Sep 29, 20151 votes

I should have been more clear. When I said "removing crit" I meant "removing crit and replacing it with a non-RNG mechanic that will help maintain DPS for ADCs." After removing crit (if it happens), Yasuo will probably receive a compensation mechanic, too, so I doubt that he'll be ruined.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20152 votes

Marksman reworks are being worked on. Not item's themselves, although I'd suspect some changes anyways, since it's close to pre-season

5000000000000000Sep 29, 20151 votes

Oh, I thought it would work like Juggernaut reworks. Both champion reworks and item reworks (or just addition). The update page just says "Marksman update" iirc, which can mean either just champion reworks, or also item reworks.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 29, 20151 votes

This is a response to all the QQ on the boards in the past months about Crit.

Maximum MordeSep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Where did they say they are getting rid of crit?

What happens when Yasuo cries? A wet fart.

Aatrox HerselfSep 29, 20151 votes

Clannad music starts playing.

5000000000000000Sep 29, 20151 votes

"Let's remove crit" is more about "let's remove the RNG element from the game and introduce a new mechanic." Or at least, that's how it should be. Personally, I think they should add more on-hit effect items with interesting effects. I think with that change they can remove crit and still maintain ADC's DPS.

For example, "AA now does 50% AD as bonus on-hit effect" (or something like that) on reworked IE would help keep the ADC DPS and remove crit. This is a boring effect in my opinion, though. I hope they do go for more on-hit effects.

dannykunSep 29, 20151 votes

Crit itself isn't so much an issue as it's reliability and certain champ synergies with it. Caitlyn's passive proc with a crit on a squishy is a prime example, it's absolutely devistating to have that happen to you, but it doesn't always happen. Ashe has a very good synergy that's fairly balanced, she does get a straight damage increase, but it's a pretty strong steroid, and requires that she hit the target somehow before it becomes active. so there's positives and negatives. Then you also get Draven's chunking spinning axe's which can literally one shot with crit and enough AD. It's not Crit, but the synergies that some kits have that's really an issue. on a normal ADC, with no special effects just a ranged AD champ no abilities, Crit is just a damage increase, it's when you get problematic kits that crit just go too well with, like yasuo's q which can crit multiple targets, or caitlyns and dravens extreme steroids that you start to have issues.

APrinnyDoodSep 29, 20151 votes

Ashe has a very good synergy that's fairly balanced, she does get a straight damage increase, but it's a pretty strong steroid, and requires that she hit the target somehow before it becomes active.

It's not really a strong steroid. It's just the normal damage we'd expect from crit, just over autoattack and with an extra 0.1 AD per autoattack. I mean, I guess 0.1 AD per autoattack is a steroid, but I wouldn't call normal crit damage a steroid. It's just.... you know.... normal. And not random.

dannykunSep 29, 20151 votes

well her q is her actual steroid, but the point I was making is that she has a much easier to balance damage amplification, she gets a straight increase in her normalized damage that can be modified to be stronger with crit. it's .1 AD ratio to start, but you can get is all the way to a 1.0 with more crit, making all her auto's after the first do double damage. But if she doesn't focus a target she doesn't benefit from her passive as well as she could. So she tends to move from one target to another, a strong steroid with a drawback.

APrinnyDoodSep 29, 20151 votes

it's .1 AD ratio to start, but you can get is all the way to a 1.0 with more crit, making all her auto's after the first do double damage

No, that's not what I meant with the 0.1 AD ratio. The 0.1 doesn't change because her crit formula adds 0.1 AD to her autoattack damage after crit is calculated. It's always a 0.1 addition, and never changes. Because of this, her extra autoattack damage actually goes up to a 1.1 ratio with 100% crit. If she had an IE, it would be a 1.6 ratio.

The reason I can't call it a steroid is because at the point where Ashe gets a 1.0 ratio by buying 100% crit, everyone else would get the exact same AD ratio by buying 100% crit. Even at lower crit values, her expected damage over X autoattacks will be exactly the same as that of other crit users (well, not counting the extra 0.1 per autoattack she's getting). Because it's giving her the exact same damage that other crit users are getting, just applied over every autoattack instead of being applied in bursts every once in a while, I can't really call it a steroid outside of the 0.1 ratio (and that's really just there to compensate for her first auto on a target not having any bonus damage from crit). It's different, but it doesn't make her hurt any more than anyone else, so it isn't a steroid.

I can't call it a strong steroid with a drawback. I can just call it a different mechanic that gives the same damage in a different way. The Q is a steroid, but the passive isn't. Maybe that's me being a bit pedantic, and I'm sorry if it is, but I've seen way too many people who think that Ashe is getting more or less damage from her passive than everyone else is with normal crit, so I've kinda got to point it out.

dannykunSep 29, 20151 votes

It's really when she hits around 40-50% crit with an IE, that the passive really shows you it's strength. Using her q gives her an extremely powerful bonus per auto and it gets amplified even further by her passive. at a 96-108% amplification at 5 stacks plus the crit modifier, she's got what I would consider the biggest steroid in the game once she stacks her passive to a decent level the 45-60% crit rating with IE gives that passive more than 300% damage per auto, more than the IE originally gives for regular RNG crits in the first place, that's kinda the reason I consider her passive to be a goldmine in terms of a passive steroid. her q is what makes the passive so good in the first place, but the fact that her short steroid is RELIABLY powerful is what sets her apart in terms of balance, she gets that extreme state of power for a short time, and if you worked on her passive a bit she's a god for the duration.

APrinnyDoodSep 30, 20151 votes

Using her q gives her an extremely powerful bonus per auto and it gets amplified even further by her passive.

Her passive doesn't actually enhance her Q damage. Her Q gets added on after her autoattack damage is calculated. Her Q will give her the same damage increase whether she has 0% crit or 100% crit.

"It's really when she hits around 40-50% crit with an IE, that the passive really shows you it's strength."

Mathematically, it's the same damage as having 40-50% crit with any other champion and an IE. I mean, literally the same expected damage.

"more than the IE originally gives for regular RNG crits in the first place, "

Except it doesn't. It's actually exactly the same expected damage as RNG crits over X number of attacks. Here, I'll prove it with some math.

Say that I have 100 AD, 50% crit, and an IE, and I attack 10 times. For Ashe, that means that I'll do (10 * (100 * (50% crit chance * 1.5 crit damage modifier = 1.75))) = 10 * 175 = 1,750 damage. The only extra damage she would have is the 0.1 AD ratio on her passive, which would be 100 damage over 10 attacks. For another carry, that would mean 10 attacks for 100 damage, and 5 attacks for 250 damage. That would be 500 + 1,250 = 1,750 damage. See how that's exactly the same amount?

Her Q is good, but the passive doesn't make the Q any better than it would be otherwise because the Q doesn't benefit from crit, and even if it did it would get exactly the same average damage increase from random crit as it would with normal crit (if you think otherwise, please show me some numbers). That's a steroid, but the passive isn't. The passive doesn't contribute to damage outside of the 0.1 AD ratio on autoattacks. It just makes the damage reliable. That's nice, but it's not a damage steroid. It's just different.

That's what I'm trying to point out. A lot of people think that the passive increases or decreases her damage, and it really doesn't. It just makes it apply differently. You should expect to do exactly the same damage with a random crit system as with Ashe's crit system (again, disregarding the 0.1 AD ratio on her autos). It's the Q that makes her damage so strong. I'm sorry man, but I think you have a misconception about what the passive is doing for her.

dannykunSep 30, 20151 votes

Her passive doesn't actually enhance her Q damage. Her Q gets added on after her autoattack damage is calculated. Her Q will give her the same damage increase whether she has 0% crit or 100% crit.

Firstly you've ignored my argument completely. I said that ashe gets an extremely hightened state during her q with all 5 procs. yes I know that her Damage is meant to be invariable but to end up almost exactly the same as those using regular crit, and have an extra .1 ad.

However Your arguement is actually completely wrong, if you read her wiki, and even test it in game. Ashe's flurry benefits from frost shots bonus, meaning a higher crit modifier gives the other 4 arrows more bonus damage according to frost shots current modifier. So at 0% crit, each of the 4 arrows gets modified by the ratio on top of the original 23-27% and are considered critical strikes for the purposes of on attack effects. you should read up on it. The Actual math of these would be each attack deals 96% increased by 10% total attack damage after all 4 at lvl 1 with no modifiers to her crit. that gives her a 105.6% attack modifier per attack at level 1. Now using your example we'll do the math at 100 AD and with 50% Crit and an IE as well as her full 27%. In this example she will deal 175 damage on the first attack and the flurry will do 1.08 * .6 * 1.5 * 100 = or 97.2 bonus damage ON TOP of the 175 so that's a total of 272 damage during her flurry. Which doesn't sound like much, but 100 AD is so low. just so you know, she got 172% increase in damage per auto during her empowered q, Crit gives you a 150% bonus in damage with IE. So With more Damage than 100 Say 300 or 400, She's dealing more Damage on EVERY auto than an ADC with an IE and 50% crit damage would do half as often. Now this State is Very temporary obviously, but At that point each percent is worth 1.5 per percent instead of 1 and since the flurry scales with it as well it has an exponential growth, granted it's very flat at first, but as you get more crit chance the scaling gets higher as it goes. btw the Modifier at 60% is 197% instead of 172%

Spizzle9000Sep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Let's remove crit" is more about "let's remove the RNG element from the game and introduce a new mechanic." Or at least, that's how it should be. Personally, I think they should add more on-hit effect items with interesting effects. I think with that change they can remove crit and still maintain ADC's DPS.

For example, "AA now does 50% AD as bonus on-hit effect" (or something like that) on reworked IE would help keep the ADC DPS and remove crit. This is a boring effect in my opinion, though. I hope they do go for more on-hit effects.

It's boring, but in theory, it might work. I'm more worried about how they'll keep Yasuo from becoming cardboard tier if they rework crits. Like, they might have to make his kit actually have higher base damage on his Q and E if they get rid of crits and can't compensate him.

Like, people say Yasuo's super OP, but, just think about how awful he'd be without roughly 35% of his damage output.

The Bearded BardSep 29, 20151 votes

I wouldn't mind it changing to a set damage increase/multiplier for consecutive attacks on the same target. RNG crits is definitely an issue as that 0/10 ADC can still murder anyone in the game just because they get lucky.

GigahappytownSep 29, 20151 votes

you can't remove crit too many champions rely on it every marksman talon rengar trnydamere yasuo yi shaco pantheon fiora jayce

The Sword SaintSep 29, 20151 votes

I think it would be cool to replace crit with some sort of auto attack upgrade stat, where the stat is worthless on most champions but some such as marksman and champs intended currently to build crit have passive's that give them some specific benifit from building the stat the way that for ashe it gives an amplifier. Something like giving cait lower cd on ult, giving tristana bonus damage to towers, giving varus a longer charge up range on arrow, giving kogmaw more %hp damage on autos, etc.

Ofc this would take a ton of balancing, but it's nice to think about.

BârdSep 29, 20151 votes

not to mention ruining my 1% crit rune strat.

ShénzhìSep 29, 20151 votes

So many reasons why it should not be removed.
There is a solution and it will work:

{quoted}

But come up with a decent solution first

Thread: [NEW SYSTEM: Precision (replacing Critical Chance)] Additionally, Critical could still remain as exclusive to some champions (e.g. Jax's Dodge, Shaco's Miss, Yasuo's Crit)

Guy Fox TeemoSep 30, 20151 votes

1: Jax's dodge doesn't crit, I don't know what that has to do with anything. 2: Yasuo has no Crit, if he has no crit items so :P. 3: Shaco's sure.

ShénzhìSep 30, 20151 votes

rly?

{quoted}

as exclusive to some champions (e.g. Jax's Dodge)

As part of their kit. Not spread across all champs through items.

Jungle Lux GodSep 29, 20151 votes

Just because crit is stapled to the meta doesn't mean a staple remover shouldn't exist.

A game based around skill should be played around skill, and crit chance removes that skill element by adding a slot machine element that takes "spin to win" to a whole different level. Removing it in favor of some other kind of universal damage multiplier that isn't based on praying to RNGsus is certainly in order to help promote the game's skill-based element by removing that kind of randomness factor.

Also, it's not like every single ADC would have to be altered. Kalista already has been using critless builds ever since people learned how good Runaan's Hurricane was on her, and Ashe has also proved that we can have champions that don't rely on randomness to their crits.

SEKAISep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just because crit is stapled to the meta doesn't mean a staple remover shouldn't exist.

Get rid of Flash first then we talk.

Slamurai JackSep 29, 20151 votes

The biggest problem with reworking crit into an AA % damage boost is that there are tons of champions who would build crit where they don't now becaue it's too unreliable. Imagine if champions like Riven, Zed, Talon, and Rengar started incorporating lots of crit into their builds on a regular basis. IE would literally become a required item on every single one of them.

SaiannaSep 29, 20151 votes

Riot removed dodge just like that. Even though it could have been reworked to just decrease damage taken or something. Or even reduce crits power.

But deleting was easier.

And crits? Nah they are good, what could possibly go wrong with having ADC critting for 700 against squishy targets?

Guy Fox TeemoSep 30, 20151 votes

Dodge wasn't as staple as, crit is today. Back then the meta wasn't balanced when crit was there or after. So not a very good comparison

SaiannaSep 30, 20151 votes

Yeah.. But Riot could reintroduce healthy dodge system, don't you think? Even as simple as damage reduction per dodge %

(180 degrees different on what some of us want tto happen with crits)

That would add diversity. And ofc it'd have to be balanced so heavy tank wouldn't b able to stack dodge on top of his armor/mres to be unkillable.. Well there is an opportunity imo.

SEKAISep 29, 20151 votes

Removing crit doesn't just ruin ADC, many fighters and all MADC will be trashed too.

RebonackSep 30, 20151 votes

Crit could be totally replaced with raw AD. Some remakes would be required, but the only really major change is that %Pen would have to get a bit stronger to deal with Tanks. That's a fine-tuning thing, though.