I welcome the new essence reaver, but if proves to be broken, Mages should have a way to counter it.

xxxMadLionxxx·May 7, 2018·3 votes·1,644 views

I have the sinking feeling the new essence reaver is going to be like devourer all over again. I love the diversity it brought to build paths, but riot had a lot of trouble balancing it.

The same with the new essence reaver. New build paths will open up and I'm sure essence reaver users will have lots of fun spamming spells, but it won't be fun for the mage they are beating down.

i suggest mages get a new item that would help to counter low cooldown spell spamming. Something that is just as fun and creative as the new essence reaver.

And spell bound orb just isn't cutting it.

15 Comments

DW DianaMay 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I have the sinking feeling the new essence reaver is going to be like devourer all over again. I love the diversity it brought to build paths, but riot had a lot of trouble balancing it.

The same with the new essence reaver. New build paths will open up and I'm sure essence reaver users will have lots of fun spamming spells, but it won't be fun for the mage they are beating down.

I second that feeling

i suggest mages get a new item that would help to counter low cooldown spell spamming. Something that is just as fun and creative as the new essence reaver.

And spell bound orb just isn't cutting it.

Mages currently have massive holes in their itemization that AD's have had filled for some time. They have 3 lethality items, we have 2 MP items (including boots). They have 3 -% armour items, we have one. In each case the mages items cost more than the AD items (exculding black cleaver). They have more items that include CDR as a standard, and more that give 20% CDR on one item They have ~~spell vamp~~ Lifesteal They have grievous wounds for 800 gold. Mages get it for 3000 gold. They get a 30% slow, mages get a 20% slow. They get Crit items, mages don't.

KaìjuMay 7, 20181 votes

Frozen Mallet is only 20% for ranged, but I do agree AP items are pretty shit right now.

DW DianaMay 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Frozen Mallet is only 20% for ranged, but I do agree AP items are pretty shit right now.

Yeah but it, like rylais is used for kiting. Doesn't help much when those you are kiting can slow you more/equally to what can slow them :P

I don't think I'd say they're shit, I think I'd say they're unbalanced when compared with AD. AD have more options for cheaper for the most part. If riot would have spent the time they did on the AP item changes creating more new items that were actually viable (Spellbinders is used on maybe 2 champions when ahead, none as a core item?) I think it would have been far more successful.

KaìjuMay 7, 20181 votes

I think part of the issue is how different mages are from each other. Look at it like this. Ashe and Draven play very much the same at their core. They auto attack and kite through stutter stepping, this I think we can agree on. Ashe plays like Jinx plays like Draven plays like Kog plays like Xayah. The only difference really is attack range and defense options.

At the same time, Xerath and Lissandra play nothing alike. Lissandra and Ahri play nothing alike. Ahri and Lux play nothing alike. Lux and Elise play nothing alike. Elise and Aurelion Sol play nothing alike. Mages play so differently from each other in a case by case setting that they would red far far more items to allow not just mage types but individual champions to really work. What's good enough for one mage may not be for another. All ADC's can use the same AD items. Not all mages can use the same AP items.

DW DianaMay 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think part of the issue is how different mages are from each other. Look at it like this. Ashe and Draven play very much the same at their core. They auto attack and kite through stutter stepping, this I think we can agree on. Ashe plays like Jinx plays like Draven plays like Kog plays like Xayah. The only difference really is attack range and defense options.

At the same time, Xerath and Lissandra play nothing alike. Lissandra and Ahri play nothing alike. Ahri and Lux play nothing alike. Lux and Elise play nothing alike. Elise and Aurelion Sol play nothing alike. Mages play so differently from each other in a case by case setting that they would red far far more items to allow not just mage types but individual champions to really work. What's good enough for one mage may not be for another. All ADC's can use the same AD items. Not all mages can use the same AP items.

I agree completely. Mages are all very unique, with very different core playstyles. Add into that that there are often varying ways to play some of them, and you can see that bunching all mages together is like bunching all the damaging AD together, and expecting them all to build lethality, except for 1 item with attack speed for those that use it.

Yaśuo MainMay 7, 20181 votes

ironically mages have the best penetration item in the entire game

DW DianaMay 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mJRj8rjM,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-05-07T13:25:42.256+0000)

ironically mages have the best penetration item in the entire game

Void Staff: 40% Magic Pen, 70 ability power, 2650g

Last Whisper Items: 35% Armour pen, 50 attack damage (about 80-90AP worth in adaptive), and either grevious wounds/giant slayer. 2600g.

Strangely most people would say you getting more scaling, plus a second passive, and 50 gold cheaper might be better than the extra 5% reduction.

Yaśuo MainMay 7, 20181 votes

both the last whisper items are actually garbage, rarely built at all.

strange you dont understand how you almost never see a single last whisper item in games

DW DianaMay 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mJRj8rjM,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-07T22:06:47.596+0000)

both the last whisper items are actually garbage, rarely built at all.

strange you dont understand how you almost never see a single last whisper item in games

I rarely see a game where one isn't built 4th or 5th item by adc's and ad assassins. They both are so useful, strong and cheap. Lord Dominic's (may it rest in peace) is especially strong when taken on a squishy champion as almost any mage will be building items with HP (they all pretty much have AP and HP) leading to this item being very strong. Void staff on the other hand is kinda a last item for most mages, if built at all, and AP assassins/diver will tend to opt for the flat pen instead to enable the 1 shotting of carries (though for champions like Diana getting this as a 2nd or 3rd item against a tanky team is always a good option). It's just not a viable option when compared to the AD options available. Give it grevious woulds or extra damage and yes it would be worth it, but for substandard ap and % magic pen which doesn't really do much after your flat pen has been built and it's really not worth while when compared to the alternatives (which are in themselves pretty limited lol).

I'm not trying to say all AP items are bad, I'm saying that there just aren't enough choices there for people to build a variety of item paths.

Yaśuo MainMay 8, 20181 votes

the top 3 winrate ADCs dont even build a last whisper item

hmm maybe because its bonus armor pen and not total armor pen which is useless against squishies

and void staff is almost 24/7 BUILT, thats 40% of resistances negated unlike last whisper where it only works on bought/purchased armor and armor gained from runes, not base armor. This is why lethality is OP, because it does not ignore bonus armor it just ignores all armor. Just one finished lethality item can ignore 18 armor, while last whisper can do nothing

and in ur last 6 games, only 3 people built last whisper out of 8 able to use it, and 2 of those 3 people only built part of a full last whisper item.

DW DianaMay 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mJRj8rjM,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-08T13:36:02.279+0000)

the top 3 winrate ADCs dont even build a last whisper item

hmm maybe because its bonus armor pen and not total armor pen which is useless against squishies

and void staff is almost 24/7 BUILT, thats 40% of resistances negated unlike last whisper where it only works on bought/purchased armor and armor gained from runes, not base armor. This is why lethality is OP, because it does not ignore bonus armor it just ignores all armor. Just one finished lethality item can ignore 18 armor, while last whisper can do nothing

and in ur last 6 games, only 3 people built last whisper out of 8 able to use it, and 2 of those 3 people only built part of a full last whisper item.

Read the PBE for the new last whisper items. Then come back to me :P

KanzlerMay 8, 20181 votes

35% bonus armor pen. That's a pretty substantial difference

OleandervineMay 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mJRj8rjM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-07T13:14:23.107+0000)

Mages currently have massive holes in their itemization that AD's have had filled for some time. They have 3 lethality items, we have 2 MP items (including boots). They have 3 -% armour items, we have one. In each case the mages items cost more than the AD items (exculding black cleaver). They have more items that include CDR as a standard, and more that give 20% CDR on one item They have ~~spell vamp~~ Lifesteal They have grievous wounds for 800 gold. Mages get it for 3000 gold. They get a 30% slow, mages get a 20% slow. They get Crit items, mages don't.

A few things you're missing here. AD items have to accommodate assassins, marksmen, divers, bruisers, and duelists. There's a MUCH broader range of champions that utilize AD than there is that utilize AP. In fact, most AP champions are mages, with a few outliers here and there, so it's natural that AP itemization is a bit more limited, since the range of champions it has to accommodate is much smaller. Furthermore, you also have to account for the fact that the majority of AD champions are melee , so things like the slow from Frozen Mallet, lifesteal, and even grievous wounds are required so that they can be functional against loads of ranged champions that can poke them heavily from safety before they can even get close enough to do anything. Regarding their access to CDR, sure, they have a lot of items with CDR (again, AD items accommodate more champions, so naturally more items), but not every AD champion is going to functionally want to build the same items to access the CDR. For instance, on but a RARE few marksmen, Black Cleaver is a bad purchase, despite the fact it gives them CDR, and the same holds true for Trinity Force. Meanwhile, bruisers may want to buy Cleaver or Triforce, but because they both share a passive, they're not the most gold efficient. There is some overlap, like marksmen and duelist liking to buy Death's Dance, but on the whole, many AD champions can't effectively utilize all the CDR that AD items have because of the broad range of limitations to their roles and classes. Mages, and even oddball AP champs like Diana and Teemo, can still utilize most of the same CDR items mages can. They all love Luden's Echo, Zhonya's Hourglass, and Banshee's Veil, which is 40% CDR right there in 3 items. Teemo and Diana also love to build Lichbane and Nashor's Tooth, which again, offers CDR to them, and is even more tailored to their playstyles. So to claim that AD CDR is more viable than AP CDR is not only skewed, but wrong, since the overlap in AD items between different classes is a bit more limited than AP items.

DW DianaMay 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A few things you're missing here. AD items have to accommodate assassins, marksmen, divers, bruisers, and duelists. >There's a MUCH broader range of champions that utilize AD than there is that utilize AP.

AP items have to accomodate assassins, mages, divers, tanks. Also there are several TYPES of mages (much like bruisers and duelists being similar). Control mages (Anivia, Malzahar), burst mages (Xereth, Syndra), support mages (Nami, Janna, Lulu).

In fact, most AP champions are mages, with a few outliers here and there, so it's natural that AP itemization is a bit more limited, since the range of champions it has to accommodate is much smaller.

Have you thought that they build similar items because they don't have much to choose from?

Furthermore, you also have to account for the fact that the majority of AD champions are melee , so things like the slow from Frozen Mallet, lifesteal, and even grievous wounds are required so that they can be functional against loads of ranged champions that can poke them heavily from safety before they can even get close enough to do anything.

Show me a melee champion that doesn't have engage to allow them to get onto AP champions. Most of the mobility given to AD melee champions was actually there to allow them to get onto ADC's. Also you're forgetting that ranged AD tend to build lifesteal and grvious wounds more than melee.

Regarding their access to CDR, sure, they have a lot of items with CDR (again, AD items accommodate more champions, so naturally more items), but not every AD champion is going to functionally want to build the same items to access the CDR.

Again, with more items available, more variety would be shown. At the moment there are items taht are good on the mage/ap champion you are playing, and items that aren't. Once you've build the ones that ARE good on them, there's probably only about 2 other items left that could have been useful.

For instance, on but a RARE few marksmen, Black Cleaver is a bad purchase, despite the fact it gives them CDR, and the same holds true for Trinity Force. Meanwhile, bruisers may want to buy Cleaver or Triforce, but because they both share a passive, they're not the most gold efficient.

The same is true for Ludens and Serephs, except it's the CDR part that's Unique.

There is some overlap, like marksmen and duelist liking to buy Death's Dance, but on the whole, many AD champions can't effectively utilize all the CDR that AD items have because of the broad range of limitations to their roles and classes.

Which is why they tend to have much lower/scaling cooldowns to accommodate.

Mages, and even oddball AP champs like Diana and Teemo, can still utilize most of the same CDR items mages can. They all love Luden's Echo, Zhonya's Hourglass, and Banshee's Veil, which is 40% CDR right there in 3 items.

Zonya's on Diana yes, the other two very rarely, though she does get to be the only diver in the game that has to build assassin because there isn't much else there for her to do.

Teemo and Diana also love to build Lichbane and Nashor's Tooth, which again, offers CDR to them, and is even more tailored to their playstyles. So to claim that AD CDR is more viable than AP CDR is not only skewed, but wrong, since the overlap in AD items between different classes is a bit more limited than AP items.

Both those items scale off AP unlike the AD equivalents which scale off base AD, which they then get to increase through steraks.

I'm not saying that the AP items are bad, in fact they are pretty good. I'm saying that AD has a LOT MORE to choose from and therefore can fill much more varied roles.

Compare Diana to Irelia, Diana has to build pretty much the same items as Akali, Ekko and Katarina (though as you say she can get a fair amount of use out of Nashors tooth if she wants to splitpush), while Irelia has the special AD bruiser/diver items to go for that give her the burst she wants along with tankiness. Also she CAN build AP assassin as well lol!

Compare an ADC vs APC and the options for the ADC's are massive, while the APC's run the same things as the control mages; not because it's the best choice, but because it's the best choice AVAILABLE.