Why champions have varying levels of armor, but standardized MR?

Zero Skill Tank·Jun 26, 2016·46 votes·2,649 views

A facing physical damage threat will get much less defense from than a would, because his base armor is way lower. Which is TOTALLY OK, because they function differently and Dario needs to take much more punishment to function because he has no mobility or CC.

However, when facing magic damage threat, an or will get exactly the same amount of defense from health item as would, because they are all melee.

And than we wonder why tank/bruiser builds for assassins are dominating? I think it is time to re-think that. If a gets hit by a magic damage ability, he should take more damage than say a , because he has way more mobility and his revival (just like Sions base armor and health are pathetic).

40 Comments

AbyssphereJun 26, 201611 votes

I agree with you actually. I'd like to know what the original idea behind standardised MR was, because it seems kinda... useless to me. It should at least have "high melee MR" and "low melee MR" values.

IgotlazyJun 26, 20161 votes

Probably has something to do with Auto Attacks being physical no matter what the champ (minus Corki I guess).

67chromeJun 26, 201615 votes

I agree with you actually. I'd like to know what the original idea behind standardised MR was, because it seems kinda... useless to me.

Most likely scenario is it's a carry-over from DotA. In Warcraft III/DotA , all Heros have Hero armor. Hero armor reduces spell damage by 30%.

Another thing to note with base stats is there values are pretty basic and almost identical across a wide range of champions.

This actually does a lot of good things in regards to clarity and item balance, because figuring out what 50 AD is worth is pretty easy if everyone has ~50 AD at level 1 and ~110 AD at level 18. All a player needs to do is check a champion's abilities and see if AD has good interactions there, they don't have to pull up charts to cross-reference a bunch of champions and their abilities because that cool skill with good-AD scaling was meet with an AD scaling 'tax' on a champion's base stats that makes them put AD to worse use than an average champion.

Skewing base-stats also pushes counter-intuitive item builds in several situations.

Say you have 3 champions with widely variable base stats: 1000 HP 100 AD, average. 2000 HP 50 AD, tank. 500 HP 200 AD, glass-cannon

All 3 of these are balanced against one-another, as they take the same amount of time to kill eachother. The average champion needs 20 hits on the tank and needs to be hit 20 times by the tank, the average champion needs 5 hits on the glass-cannon and needs to be hit 5 times by the glass-cannon, the tank and glass-cannon need to hit one another 10 times to kill each other.

However: things go wrong pretty fast when adding a 1000 HP and 100 AD item into the mix.

The glass-cannon will be able to triple their HP with the 1000 HP item, going from 500 to 1500, where the 100 AD item will only see a 50% boost in their overall power, 200 to 300. The tank will inversly see a massive power-spike with offense, as grabbing the 100 AD item will boost their 50 AD to 150, where grabbing the 1000 HP tank item will only see a 50% boost in HP from 2000 to 3000.

If the glass-cannon grabs the DPS item vs. the average champion grabbing the DPS item: it's 300 AD/500 HP vs. 200 AD/1000 HP: requiring the average champion 3 hits to kill the glass-cannon but the glass-cannon 4 hits to kill the average champion, making the glass-cannon below average. If the glass-cannon and average champion grab the tank item, then it's 200 AD/1500 HP vs. 100 AD/2000 HP. In this case the 'glass cannon' needs to strike the average champion 10 times to kill, where the average champion needs to hit the glass-cannon 15 times.

Item scaling in LoL is all kinds of awkward.

But this interaction is also fairly present in a wide range of champion kits.

Nasus gets a ton of damage for free without getting much in the way of free tank stats, causing Nasus to itemize like the glass-cannon above. He innately does so much damage there isn't much point in building more damage on him, but he's also pretty fragile innately so building defense on him makes a ton of sense.

On the other hand: Kayle can turn invulnerable, and taking 0 damage is pretty hard to beat when it comes to tanking damage. With her decent range, speed, and CC all adding more layers of protection: Kayle has a ton of innate defenses to merit pursuing heavy damage.

Sorry about the post length.

But those are the main reasons for fairly static, or actually static base stats.

Messing with bases can push champions in the opposite direction of that change's intentions, changing bases can make a champion's optimal interaction with itemization extremely muddled: making stats feel widely inconsistent and difficult to compare between champions, and differences in champion play-styles and itemization interactions can be set pretty efficiently through abilities alone.

BloodyTomponJun 28, 20161 votes

Most likely scenario is it's a carry-over from DotA. In Warcraft III/DotA , all Heros have Hero armor. Hero armor reduces spell damage by 30%.

This is basically it. Originally mages were supposed to peak mid game and be carried by, well, carries. It was simpler mathematically having a static MR to balance and control the mid spike of a mage because of the lack of multiplicative scaling. Makes them not dominate early and not dominate late.

ValyrianBladeJun 26, 20169 votes

I'd say it's even worse for magic than armor.

You can't dodge auto attacks. So it doesn't really matter when a champion is more mobile, they're not dodging any auto attacks and thus are still taking that physical damage.

Most magic damage comes in the form of skillshots though. Your mobility CAN help you dodge them entirely. So just amplifying your point.

The oddest things are:

Previously Maokai didn't get ANY MR/lvl stats, presumably because of his passive
ALL ranged champions get no MR/lvl while ALL melee champions do, even though champions like Yasuo/Zed are WAY harder to hit with magic damage than say Ashe or Jinx.

Vistha KaiJun 26, 20167 votes

Correction. Yasuo's MR doesn't scale with levels.

Oakleaf RangerJun 26, 20162 votes

Jax cant dodge you say?

ValyrianBladeJun 26, 20163 votes

{quoted}

cant dodge you say?

Fair point. Any other champion. :P

Iota ThetaJun 27, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Fair point. Any other champion. :P

Shen http://gph.is/XJD5Kg

Umbra IoniaJun 27, 20162 votes

Braum Yasuo Can block them if the AA is ranged.

Also Rammus wants to be autoattacked

ChatillonJun 27, 20165 votes

The way i think is that AD grows with level, and all turrets do physical damage, while AP needs items to grow Since AD is more efficient, armor is free

The Yetii RiderJun 26, 20163 votes

MR does not help you dive towers. That's why it's not individual.

Armor is the only defense champions have against turrets, certain champions should take less damage from turrets than others no matter their item build. Therefore armor is individual.

Cloud273Jun 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A facing physical damage threat will get much less defense from than a would, because his base armor is way lower. Which is TOTALLY OK, because they function differently and Dario needs to take much more punishment to function because he has no mobility or CC.

However, when facing magic damage threat, an or will get exactly the same amount of defense from health item as would, because they are all melee.

And than we wonder why tank/bruiser builds for assassins are dominating? I think it is time to re-think that. If a gets hit by a magic damage ability, he should take more damage than say a , because he has way more mobility and his revival (just like Sions base armor and health are pathetic).

Darius actually does get ms when he gets his hemorrhage stacks.

Zero Skill TankJun 26, 201623 votes

Patch notes OP. This was removed million years ago.

DorkunedAurasJun 26, 20167 votes

but with cleaver passive, he does

Cloud273Jun 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

but with cleaver passive, he does

Yea, I was referring to cleaver. I should've specified.

CatastropJun 30, 20161 votes

Yeah he needs to spend 1300g for that, I don't see how this is a good point.

Maple CrusaderJun 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Darius actually does get ms when he gets his hemorrhage stacks.

Not any more.

QuephaJun 27, 20162 votes

I would guess it's because ability damage is more discrete in what it can do while auto attack damage is more variable. The way a trade plays out between most champions in lane is a rotation of their appropriate abilities with auto attacks to fill in the gaps. They pretty much always hit with 100% of their abilities or they straight-up lose the rotation, but auto attacks they may connect with 3, 4, more, or less, depending on how much they have to move.

An Assassin or burst mage absolutely needs to deal a significant portion of the enemy's hp with their burst or else they're boned when they run out of gas and variable MR muddies that line, while an auto attack focused champion against an enemy with unusual amounts of armor can just get in more auto attacks to make up the difference because they always have access to those autos.

dunkeroniJun 27, 20162 votes

Because champions have varying amounts of base attack damage, since everyone needs to auto attack. Everybody starts with 0 AP though, so abilities and magic resist scaled and maintained around a 0 base value.

Teridax68Jun 28, 20162 votes

The direct answer is that physical damage comes from a wide variety of sources, i.e. minions, jungle monsters, turret and champion autoattacks (which are themselves variable to allow for better trading/clearing), whereas nearly all magic damage comes from spells, which are much more standardized in terms of base damage and scalings, which is why armor is highly variable and MR isn't.

However, you make a valid point, and the current standard of giving all melee champions scaling MR (which isn't fully standardized, if only because of Yasuo) might not be the right one. Slayers probably shouldn't have the same MR scaling as fighters or tanks, and perhaps 30/32.1 base MR might not even have to be the baseline either: a MR model a Rioter suggested immediately following Yasuo's release was to give him scaling, but also a base below 30, so that he'd be more vulnerable to harass once his shield is down early on, and generalizing this to all slayers could give mages a better fighting chance against them in lane (imagine if Zed had only ~20 base MR at level 1, and how much better it would feel to poke him).

BloodyTomponJun 28, 20162 votes

TL DR: History, itemisation and HP.

It's from ancient history. Now it's what the game is balanced around and is a lot of work to 'correct' for something that at this point in time has minimal gains. It would only ever be done in a pre season because of the amount of disruption. Every spell would have to be rebalanced. If they decide to do this they'll time it will lockets removal item 3190 . That item increases the MR of every champ by 15 so the magic damage has been balanced around people having an additional 15 mr. Fairly similar problem to base MR in terms of rebalancing.

Now away from that target and back to your point. When facing a magic damage threat Zed does not get the same defence as Darius because of HP and because itemisation exists. Darius has much greater EHP, both naturally and via his itemisation. Both MR and HP are defence against magic. The only damage numbers that matter are referent to the total EHP. If both Zed and Darius both take 100 damage if Zed has 1000 and Darius 2000, it's much more damaging to Zed because as a proportion of his EHP it's greater - Put another way it takes him closer to death than it does to Darius.

The other aspect is MR itemisation. There are only two offensive MR items: item 3156 item 3001 . The ability for an offensive champ to stack MR is simply not there unless a trade off for damage is made. Tank MR items have MR and HP giving more EHP so those that build MR actually are more tanky. The generic MR tank items are item 3065 item 3102 which offer much great survivability, both in isolation and in combination with the additional HP tanks build.

Champion SkinJul 1, 20161 votes

There isn't much that makes tanks more durable except their tank steroids (Leona W, Rammus W, Alistar R and that kind of stuff) Like Zed if he built the same as Darius he would only have about 300 less hp at level 18

Also Maw doesn't really give that much less protection compared with sprit visage Maw - 383+ shield and 40 MR Spirit Visage - 500 hp and 55 MR

Maw have 100 hp less and 15 MR less on the defensive side but it has much more offensive power (though it is of course reliant on having the shield be ready and it gives less protection against physical damage)

The DeckownerJun 26, 20161 votes

Because champions have varying amount of base ad and ad growth, while most champions(other than special cases like veigar) have no base ap or ap growth, they gets the same amount of ap from ap items.

SpoofghoulJun 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

(just like Sions base armor and health are pathetic).

just had to upvote this

OhWandererJun 27, 20161 votes

i feel like this is a topic that should have been covered in the mid year "mage (+ dragon "we dont have time for much") update

TheSlogsJun 27, 20161 votes

You take physical damage at all points in the game. You only take magic damage when someone uses an ability or you fight baron. Mages would have a much harder time again ranged champions if they had scaling mr.

Champion SkinJun 27, 20161 votes

But then why is MR higher for almost all champions in the early game? (the only champion with higher than 30 armor at level 1 is rammus)

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions'_armor

Serpents EmbraceJun 27, 20161 votes

Because most physical damage is dealt for free, while most magic damage has a cost.

Since it's generally easier to apply physical damage, armor scales with your level to compensate.

Champion SkinJun 27, 20161 votes

but armor is generally lower then MR early game... as most champions have less than 30 armor early game?

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions'_armor

Serpents EmbraceJun 29, 20161 votes

...Exactly?

You gain AD per level, so you gain armor per level to compensate for the extra free damage opponents would get hitting you with a basic attack. Some abilities deal physical and do have costs associated with them, but originally this was extremely rare and was probably considered too much of an exception to factor in to basic stats. At level 1, their AD is at their lowest, so your armor is also at its lowest.

You do not gain AP per level, so you don't gain MR per level. To hit with magic damage an opponent generally needs to buy AP with their gold and then spend mana or another resource to hit you with an ability that deals magic damage. There are a few champions that have free magic damage somewhere in their kits but again probably considered too much of an exception to factor in to basic stats.

Champion SkinJun 30, 20161 votes

Ehh MR being higher then armor early game doesn't really make much sense

As at that time mages generally don't have much AP or mana (and they are of course also limited by cooldowns) to throw their abilities around... early levels auto attacks are generally rather strong (though also risky because of how much damage minions can do if you draw minion aggro)

Serpents EmbraceJul 1, 20161 votes

I don't understand where I'm losing you, tbh.

"Tend to be rather strong" isn't really the case compared to late game auto-attacks that can chunk through someone in 4 hits.

Whereas abilities have base damage that's typically greater than autos, but you don't gain any MR because they don't really get any free scaling on their abilities. They have to invest skill points or buy AP to increase it.

Why would MR be lower than armor early game? I can't even fathom the thought process where that would be the case.

SchàdenfreudeJun 27, 20161 votes

They should make League more like Hots, in which heroes or champions have their stat growth modified by the role they play.

BloodyTomponJun 28, 20161 votes

They do to an extent. E.g., Tanks have higher armour and HP, marksmen have lower armour and HP.

CC MustangJun 27, 20161 votes

Zed , a magic damage threat?!?! is there a secret item 3100 build i havent heard of?

Blue Moon WolfJun 27, 20161 votes

Well the next class getting worked on is assassin, so let's hope Riot can at the very least achieve getting rid of Tank/Bruiser assassin builds. After reading what their goals are, the only thing I've gotten out of it is that they want assassins to be good at taking out single targets, but also good at doing more than just taking out single targets... so... they want them to be able to take out multiple targets then?

ModAcademy KaynJun 27, 20161 votes

I've said this before, I don't think assassins of any kind should get scaling MR. An assassin's safety should be in outplay and their mobility, not in some standardized stat.

FantasySniperJun 27, 20161 votes

Map damage (creeps, turrets) is physical damage, all auto-attacks are physical damage, so it's a lot more arbitrary just because there's so much more physical damage present in the game.

It's also why there's so much more armor penetration than magic penetration.