I recognize the situation of ADCs, I don't trust Riot philosophy to fix it though

LegitBusinessman·Jan 9, 2017·42 votes·3,953 views

Playing ADC is a nightmare right now and of the ADCs I play, Ezreal is the only real legitimate option to get through lane phase and still be useful mid/late game.

I'm a Jinx main and I have never come even remotely close to feeling as useless as I do playing Jinx right now in the state of the game. It's an outright awful playing experience.

My fear is that the philosophy on fixing this problem is going to be the same philosophy that went into season 5 with the new keystones and the massive damage creep that came into the game and this is going to open a whole slew of other problems. The season 5 mentality was 'snowball more, games end faster, less stall tactics' and this was basically admitted by Riot. The problem is you have a game where everything is one shotting everything in less than 15 minutes. There is no such thing as the 'late game hypercarry' anymore. Jinx is an atrocious pick, we saw that at IEM. Kogmaw doesn't exist anymore.

The answer to 'ADCs are weak' isn't 'buff ADCs or nerf items', these are bandaids on a problem. The real issue is that ever since Season 5 you basically removed the concept of a mid game. There is no scaling time. If your champion doesn't have kill pressure in the first 10 minutes of the game, it's an awful pick, the only exception being ones that have fantastic wave clear, or certain niche picks like TF.

The flow of the game is jacked. My solution: I think masteries should be removed entirely. You wanted to make them interesting with keystones, I don't think it's been successful. Forget runes too it's not like people are experimenting with non-cookie cutter rune pages anyway, and just focus on giving us a wider variety of unique and interesting items.

94 Comments

SGT Dingle BerryJan 9, 201711 votes

Runes are too damn expensive to experient with and this is coming from someone who uses RP to buy expensive champs.

AptestJan 9, 201710 votes

The entire concept of "develop a late game ADC and then everybody guards it while it shreds everything" is bad. It's basically an agency sink that turns everyone in the team to enablers and bodyguards for the jinx.

I understand the allure from the jinx perspective but for the game it is bad. I think top laners and mid laners and junglers should have more freedom in who they engage on (does not have to be "catch the jinx") and also who they protect. maybe the xerath or the ziggs ?

To that effect I think that mid-game ADCs like Jhin and MF and Lucian are what needs to happen, and the "armor pen assassin build" that everyone seems to hate because of it's "I can fight you, mr assassin" impact is actually a good thing. It makes the game more even, agency wide.

Also it makes the game end before them mega tanks become unkillable to anything that isn't a late game jinx. So its good, from a freedom to attack perspective.

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 20171 votes

But protect the adc comps were a viable strategy in this game, and that's what is missing these days, strategy. There is only one way to win now, stomp lane win game. There is no other strategy to the game right now.

KilanostJan 9, 20171 votes

I have won more than a handful of games with multiple losing lanes.

What you basically just said was "there's no other strategy than killing the enemy more than they kill you and securing more farm than them." Guess what my friend.... That is the core of the MOBA genre. Removing threats to gain a resource and objective advantage to put yourself in a position to take the enemy Nexus before they take yours. If that's not for you, you can purchase Sim City on steam for like 10 bucks.

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 20171 votes

"there's no other strategy than killing the enemy more than they kill you and securing more farm than them." Guess what my friend.... That is the core of the MOBA genre.

No that is the core of FPS team deathmatch games. MOBAs are not deathmatch games, they are objective based strategy games. Pro games often have < 10 kills in 35+ minute games because they understand this.

KilanostJan 9, 20171 votes

The pro game is a different game entirely from normal league that is based on 1000s of hours of team practice, communication, and strategy building which you will never have with a solo/flex queue game. And what do you think lets them take the objectives? Its better farm and more kills to accumulate resources to give them the advantage to take objectives which further gives more resources and gives them control over more of the map (which in turn gives them control of more resources).

At the heart of the MOBA class of games, one stat reigns supreme: Team gold. That is why objectives are important. Gold and control over gold sources. Even drag buffs and baron buff can be translated into gold advantage. All strategies that exist for this game and ever will exist for this game will lend themselves to this central idea of amassing more resources than the other team to gain enough of an advantage to take their nexus.

Since you seem to want to try to put this in terms of the pros, think of it like this: Despite the kills being low in pro games, they are arguably better at csing than just about anyone. Why? Because gold decides the advantage which decides the game.

Back to your original post, you complain the only way to win is to "stomp lane." That leads to a win because that team gets more resources. If you're getting shit on in lane, rotate to another and grab a turret and get that global gold to counterbalance the gold differential you created by getting your ass handed to you.

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 20171 votes

The pro game is very different from normal league, but the difference is not in this aspect of the game right now. High elo is suffering from these problems more than lower elo is to be sure.

MOBAs started as custom games for Starcraft, which itself was a strategy based game. The foundation of MOBAs is strategy, no question about it.

"there's no other strategy than killing the enemy more than they kill you and securing more farm than them." Guess what my friend.... That is the core of the MOBA genre.

This ^ is just false. MOBAs have their core built from strategy games where it was absolutly possible to use less gold more efficiently than your opponent and still win through good tactics.

Back to your original post, you complain the only way to win is to "stomp lane." That leads to a win because that team gets more resources.

Season 5 average game length

http://www.leaguemath.com/match-duration-analysis/

season 7 average game length

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Average game lengths have gone down by 5-7 minutes (depending on rank) over the past two years, so compared to previous seasons late game doesn't even exist. Season 5 was a better reflection of the foundation of mobas, where your gold lead out of lane was important, but it didn't singlehandedly win games the way league does today. Gold is important because it gives you the control to win teamfights later, which are conspicuously missing so far this season. Now It's just stomp lane and murderface everything in existence. There is no strategy to that. The mid and late game are where strategy comes from, where you can outrotate and outmaneuver your opponents. We used to have that because strategy was important, but that's not the case anymore.

When was the last time you saw a split push comp, or a poke comp, or a wombo combo comp? No one has talked about team comps for months because they are irrelevant.

KilanostJan 9, 20171 votes

Yes game length has decreased by design to avoid that exact scenario where both teams are max items and then the game turns into a craps shoot. We want to avoid that scenario because then it feels like there was no purpose in the previous 45 minutes of the game. Generally most people are at or near full build by 35 minutes if they know how to secure GOLD effectively.

Yes it is possible to get less gold than the other team an win, But thats not going to be the deciding factor in 95% of the games. What is going to be the deciding factor is who secures more gold. Gold gold gold gold gold. Its a game of gold.

Talking about rotating to win games? Sure, thats important...so you can take objectives an secure more GOLD. Ever take a really early inhib and leave it open long enough where a player who was behind caught up almost completely because they just sat and farmed in base? Yeap it happens. Why? Because Gold.

The only reason no one has talked about team comps for months is because there's been no LCS which is where people actually plan for their team comps and have a strategy. Additionally, the new season and all the changes that it brought has people more focused on finding which champs do better in the now so that later they can make other considerations. As soon as LCS starts, you will hear people talking about team comps again all the time, guaranteed.

So as it turns out, nothing I have said is inherently false, you just fail to see why these objectives are so important. And the answer is gold.

tl;dr get dat money.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

it feels like there was no purpose in the previous 45 minutes of the game. Generally most people are at or near full build by 35 minutes if they know how to secure GOLD effectively.

Average game length was 7 minutes shorter than that and at the time there were far less ways to get gold (no first turret gold, assist gold and bounty gold has been reworked since then) when you still wouldn't be full build, so that isn't a valid complaint.

Talking about rotating to win games? Sure, thats important...so you can take objectives an secure more GOLD.

And get yourself closer to the nexus. Inhib towers grant 150 golbal and 50 local GOLD! Inhibs offer 50 GOLD! ALL THE GOLD IS WINNING US THE GAME!

Talking about rotating to win games? Sure, thats important...so you can take objectives an secure more GOLD. Ever take a really early inhib and leave it open long enough where a player who was behind caught up almost completely because they just sat and farmed in base? Yeap it happens. Why? Because Gold.

Then if it doesn't give you gold why would you ever take an inhib?

So as it turns out, nothing I have said is inherently false, you just fail to see why these objectives are so important. And the answer is gold.

Then why are dragon and baron contestable objectives? They give negligible amounts of gold.

You clearly have no idea why objectives are important. It gives map control, it gets you closer to the nexus and the win, and that is the win condition of the game. Gold is a secondary concern to taking the nexus.

KilanostJan 10, 20171 votes

Wow you're being dense. Ok let me explain further.

Average game length was 7 minutes shorter than that and at the time there were far less ways to get gold (no first turret gold, assist gold and bounty gold has been reworked since then) when you still wouldn't be full build, so that isn't a valid complaint.

The idea is to AVOID full builds across the board, not achieve them. Once everyone hits full build, the game hits a weird point where no one can really do much to get an advantage aside from waiting for someone to make a mistake. The resource advantage is neutralized and the entire game is a toss-up.

And get yourself closer to the nexus. Inhib towers grant 150 golbal and 50 local GOLD! Inhibs offer 50 GOLD! ALL THE GOLD IS WINNING US THE GAME!

Players having to sit and manage super minions draws them away from other objectives which you can take for GOLD. And while you're working around the map you take the enemy jungle for GOLD. Then you get an infernal for extra AD/AP which normally would cost you GOLD (therefore has gold value).

Then if it doesn't give you gold why would you ever take an inhib?

You take an inhib because map pressure gives you GOLD elsewhere on the map. The cost of taking an inhib is that that lane is constantly going to push, which means you get less gold from that lane. If you aren't in a position to make use of that map pressure, you might consider leaving the inhib up and taking it later. This was even mentioned in an LCS game last season (since you want this to be the LCS).

Then why are dragon and baron contestable objectives? They give negligible amounts of gold.

You don't think those extra stats are worth gold? You can crunch everything into having a gold value. Additionally (swinging back to LCS for you to understand) I want you to think about those LCS games when a team gets a baron. Whats the stat that immediately goes on the screen? Baron power play gold. Thats right, baron leads to more GOLD. and an Infernal buff later in the game is basically GOLD because if you have enough AP or AD its basically a free Rod or BF sword.

You clearly have no idea why objectives are important. It gives map control, it gets you closer to the nexus and the win, and that is the win condition of the game. Gold is a secondary concern to taking the nexus.

It seems i know exactly why objectives are important. GOLD. map pressure = gold. objectives = gold. objective buffs = stats you'd otherwise have to spend gold for.

Eventually every game comes down to two nexus turrets, the nexus and two teams fighting there (at some level). The defending team has two turrets helping them out giving them the advantage. If you havent created a resource advantage large enough to outweigh the fact that the turrets are there, you'll never take that nexus. This is why i cringe every time I'm in a game and people keep barreling down mid after mid inhib goes down when there is so much free GOLD on the board for them to take to widen their advantage and make sure they don't throw.

Yes strategy plays a part, but its a much smaller part when compared to the effect of a sizable resource advantage. If you think of your strategies as the means to win a game, you're going to stagnant. Think of strategy as the tool you use to create enough of a resource advantage to be able to win. Because without that, you are almost surely not going to.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

The idea is to AVOID full builds across the board, not achieve them.

And at the time we weren't getting full builds because gold incomes were lower across the board. A 37 min game now is full build, but in season 5 you had to earn that shit, and at 37 min you would have 4 or 5 items. There would be 50 minute games where supports still weren't full build. You're forgetting that they reworked passive gold income in preseason 6.

Type GOLD in all caps 8 times if you want it doesn't make you right.

Eventually every game comes down to two nexus turrets, the nexus and two teams fighting there (at some level).

It didn't used to. There were base races, there were split pushers, there were poke and siege comps, there were teamfight comps. Those are all gone right now.

(since you want this to be the LCS).

Strawman.

Wow you're being dense.

But it is good to know that this conversation is over because you've been reduced to resorting to an ad hominem to open your argument. Good day sir.

KilanostJan 10, 20171 votes

And saying I clearly don't understand how to play this game is any better? Please son.

Now back to it (and I personally don't care that you respond as much as I do people walking away reading what you've written thinking any of it is true):

And at the time we weren't getting full builds because gold incomes were lower across the board. A 37 min game now is full build, but in season 5 you had to earn that shit, and at 37 min you would have 4 or 5 items. There would be 50 minute games where supports still weren't full build. You're forgetting that they reworked passive gold income in preseason 6.

Your argument was simply to make games longer without specifying any other changes to balance things out. Therefore, it is only logically to conclude your initial statement didn't give 2 shits about season 6 passive gold income. You're bringing this up now because you hate being wrong (Same reason you tried stomping away from this post after I correctly pointed out you were being dense and proceeded to poorly refute a fraction of my arguments.)

Let me ask you this, what would a longer game improve? I am completely open to you having a fair argument here if you can produce one. But the pace of the game is something that keeps it fun so make sure whatever you come up with balances that out.

It didn't used to. There were base races, there were split pushers, there were poke and siege comps, there were teamfight comps. Those are all gone right now.

First, all these team comps still exist. Team fight, siege, poke, split, wombo, etc....all there. Right now its just not being talked about because LCS hasn't been running for some time now. When that starts, you'll hear more as people will just repeat verbatim what the LCS analysts say. The bigger issue is people just playing whatever the fuck they want with no regard for the team comp (I'm looking at you, yasuo and zed mains.) Also, base races are generally ridiculous. I have no qualms about them disappearing. But if they ever came back, the team with the most GOLD would probably win them.

But it is good to know that this conversation is over because you've been reduced to resorting to an ad hominem to open your argument. Good day sir.

Trying to qq over the fact that you feel like I've used a logical fallacy to discredit you (I took intro to logic in college too but good job trying to sound fancy) is comical when you consider that I said that you are being dense which simply means you're not understanding what I'm saying because you're being hard headed. It does not however attack you, your intellect, or your character in anyway that would detract from your arguments. An ad hominem logical fallacy would be more along the lines of "this dude has a slimey agenda" or "this dude is wood 7 elo and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously."

Get edumakated lol.

Also, I just want to point out that 90% of our general message is the same, we've just managed to piss each other off enough to make this shit adversarial. That message is simply "Don't team deathmatch, use your brain (that strategy you were talking about) to figure out the best ways to apply map pressure and take objectives (GOLD lol). So that you can eventually have enough of an advantage to win.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

I said good day.

KilanostJan 10, 20171 votes

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Do you need a hug?

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

No but you've shown you don't care about the conversation, which has brought us to a conclusion.

KilanostJan 10, 20171 votes

No hugs?

JustSaiyan69Jan 11, 20171 votes

You know maybe if you didn't obnoxiously all cap the word gold everytime you used it, he would've just agreed with you and probably dropped the whole argument after your 2nd reply. I know that shit would piss me off.

KilanostJan 11, 20171 votes

lol i really didn't care either way.

JbelsJan 9, 20178 votes

If they remove runes, I better get back the 300000+ IP I spent on them

AnidanJan 9, 20174 votes

Deal. Runes are stupid idea anyway, in my opinion.

"Let's make a champion with (sometimes) carefully tuned base stats, and... there you go." stats get instantly jacked up by rune page at level 1

Yep, that seems legit.

SoraLiatzuJan 9, 20174 votes

Same

THE RlVER KlNGJan 9, 20176 votes

God I have fucking seen it all

ADCs weak? That's news to me.....the last 2 years Riot has been waiting on them hand and foot, slowing down assassins, cramming pressure into dragon and bot towers, buffing their itemization, shooting their damage through the roof......

Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Graves Jhin Jinx MissFortune Quinn Twitch Vayne are all laughing so hard at you right now.

Honorable mention to Lucian

You must be a terrible Jinx if you feel useless. One of the most obnoxious and overloaded ADCs in the game that is an early game bully who also transitions into a hypercarry.

Just because 4-man gangbangs are meta doesn't mean ADCs are weak....it means the poor bastards who get it done to them will not be having a fun time. Should we say all supports are weak now too?

LegitBusinessmanJan 9, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mH9ZTR0L,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-09T03:45:04.663+0000)

God I have fucking seen it all

ADCs weak? That's news to me.....the last 2 years Riot has been waiting on them hand and foot, slowing down assassins, cramming pressure into dragon and bot towers, buffing their itemization, shooting their damage through the roof......

are all laughing so hard at you right now.

Honorable mention to

You must be a terrible Jinx if you feel useless. One of the most obnoxious and overloaded ADCs in the game that is an early game bully who also transitions into a hypercarry.

Just because 4-man gangbangs are meta doesn't mean ADCs are weak....it means the poor bastards who get it done to them will not be having a fun time. Should we say all supports are weak now too?

Do you have any idea how awful it is to play Jinx at 15 minutes with a BF and Runaans? You do not have the output to do meaningful damage in any sort of drawn out teamfight. Stepping into a teamfight is so dangerous just so you can do a few 90 damage autos beacase at this point in the game, assassins, mages, even some tanks will obliterate you.

The only way a Jinx is able to contribute is if she has an apc in bot lane dishing out so much pressure she can clean up kills and snowball in lane.

And this is my point: Playing ADC should not come down to 'If my support doesn't set me up for repeated kills pre 10 minutes, then I will have zero meaningful contribution to the game between 15-30 minutes.' And that really kind of sucks. It's literally 'get kills now because I don't have time to freeze lanes and scale anymore' because by 25 minutes the enemy is knocking on your inhibs.

LankPantsJan 9, 201713 votes

I hate to tell you this but ADCs as a class are meant to have weak early games. They have the best scaling in the game, it's not OK for them to also run around obliterating everything at 10 minutes.

What you're feeling right now is ADCs actually playing to the conceptual roots of their role for the first time in years.

Do you know why supports go bot? Do you know the reason why the EU meta evolved over the old NA meta of double bruisers bot, mage top and ADC mid? It's because ADCs didn't have the power to overcome other roles in the early game. In season 1 EU teams spanked NA teams because NA lost every midlane to mages superior early games.

The problem isn't that ADCs are too weak early right now, it's that they've been too strong early since S5.

RalanrJan 9, 20173 votes

I still have nightmares of preseason 6 when ADCs had good early games.

Fuck that shit.

HeeroTXJan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't that ADCs are too weak early right now, it's that they've been too strong early since S5.

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT for the above statement. The PROBLEM isn't that ADCs have been too strong (altho that has been an issue, but power creep OVERALL is a thing), the PROBLEM is that 90% of the time the ONLY game is "early game". It's pointless to have a class that is "strong late" if you never GET to "late". If it takes me 40 mins to hit a good point of power but the average game ends at 30 mins, then my champion is pushed out.

LankPantsJan 10, 20172 votes

I'd certainly agree that there's far too many early game champions who are far too strong with far too many snowball mechanics in the game and the antisnowball mechanics that do exist are far too weak.

I'd disagree that ADCs haven't been too strong though. They've been ridiculous since the Marksman update in 2015.

HeeroTXJan 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'd disagree that ADCs haven't been too strong though. They've been ridiculous since the Marksman update in 2015.

I think it's more that ALL the META champions (possibly excepting support) at any given point are too strong. There's certainly SOME Marksmen that have been too strong, as well as some mids, jgs & tops. I think the "real" problem is mobility spam. ADCs SHOULD slowly whittle down tanks but be at risk from burst champs. But right now all the best "burst" champs can pop-in and pop-out with way too little risk, so the ADCs need to burn champs FASTER or they'll be wiped out before they can be effective (exceptions are LONG range champs like Jhin and Cait). The "risk-reward" curve is screwed for all roles except tanks, who just get boned by damage creep, which was prompted by mobility creep.

MegaV78G87Jan 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Do you have any idea how awful it is to play Jinx at 15 minutes with a BF and Runaans? You do not have the output to do meaningful damage in any sort of drawn out teamfight. Stepping into a teamfight is so dangerous just so you can do a few 90 damage autos beacase at this point in the game, assassins, mages, even some tanks will obliterate you.

The only way a Jinx is able to contribute is if she has an apc in bot lane dishing out so much pressure she can clean up kills and snowball in lane.

And this is my point: Playing ADC should not come down to 'If my support doesn't set me up for repeated kills pre 10 minutes, then I will have zero meaningful contribution to the game between 15-30 minutes.' And that really kind of sucks. It's literally 'get kills now because I don't have time to freeze lanes and scale anymore' because by 25 minutes the enemy is knocking on your inhibs.

I have been pretty much been one tricking corki lately. Mid lane and sometimes top I have no issues, but ADC is noticeably more difficult to win lane. I need to try out jinx jungle again, only played the champ once and was like 14 and 1, but I think that ADCs are a flawed class. ADCs that can be played outside of the bot lane seem to do better than others, and triforce users get early power spikes for 1050 gold. Zoners in bot lane have been more common and have been very successful.

PhDs NutsJan 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mH9ZTR0L,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-09T03:45:04.663+0000)

God I have fucking seen it all

ADCs weak? That's news to me.....the last 2 years Riot has been waiting on them hand and foot, slowing down assassins, cramming pressure into dragon and bot towers, buffing their itemization, shooting their damage through the roof......

are all laughing so hard at you right now.

Honorable mention to

You must be a terrible Jinx if you feel useless. One of the most obnoxious and overloaded ADCs in the game that is an early game bully who also transitions into a hypercarry.

Just because 4-man gangbangs are meta doesn't mean ADCs are weak....it means the poor bastards who get it done to them will not be having a fun time. Should we say all supports are weak now too?

Cramming pressure into dragon and bot turret had nothing to do with ADCs. It had to do with stopping the lane swap and top lane push. All it did for the ADC was force 4-5 man ganks bot lane all lane phase in order to take the early objectives. The jungler and mid typically carry the game now, because they scale the fastest.

The ADC is rarely even the reason you win bot lane in a 2v2. It's 70/30 or more on the support's shoulders unless you're playing 2 tiers below your MMR or get super fed off of a misplay.

They also destroyed the meta ADC itemization with the armor pen changes. Now it's item 3031 item 3087 // item 3085 unless you're Ezreal or Corki.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 9, 20173 votes

League still is and has been for almost 2 years now the ADCs game. It rarely matters how fed the mid laner is, or even sometimes the jungler - it matters if the Vayne / Caitlyn / Jhin / Twitch popped off in lane and now kill you in two autos.

These boards are so fickle. Yesterday people complained that they felt useless as a mid or top laner because ADCs were too snowbally now they're saying ADCs are weak? Smfh.

SoraLiatzuJan 9, 20173 votes

That's the thing ADCs are so unbalanced that it's crap. If you get fed u destroy everyone else but if u get rekt u end up getting carried orlosing. But that's the thing, it's how they were created. So other roles have the chance of not dying and actually killing the adc. The only thing that angers me about playing adc is when I'm fed as fuck and now after the update the 1/5 rengar can still one shot me. Lol another role ppl can complain about. In my opinion riot should just recreate the roles. Then maybe people will stop complaining.

NipsahoyJan 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mH9ZTR0L,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2017-01-09T04:36:26.265+0000)

League still is and has been for almost 2 years now the ADCs game. It rarely matters how fed the mid laner is, or even sometimes the jungler - it matters if the Vayne / Caitlyn / Jhin / Twitch popped off in lane and now kill you in two autos.

These boards are so fickle. Yesterday people complained that they felt useless as a mid or top laner because ADCs were too snowbally now they're saying ADCs are weak? Smfh.

Huh? What are you talking about? Jungles clearly have the most influence on the game at this point, to suggest anything otherwise is just laughably inept. Mid lane certainly has a huge impact as well since they have the easiest time roaming and to help take objectives on either side of the map. Bottom lane typically only has an impact right now if they get snowballed ahead by the jungler or mid lane and even then there's plenty of champs that easily take down an ADC, fed or not. The problem with bot lane is it's won or lost based on the actions of the jungler typically and often times there's no recovering afterwards if you are on the losing end of that unless you can stretch the game to real late and farm back into it which doesn't happen often with how most champs can wave clear well and there's items to make it worse like Zzrot.

chipndip1Jan 10, 20171 votes

To be fair: Junglers have been steady increasing in significance since season 5, and mid laners are always incredibly powerful when fed.

SoraLiatzuJan 9, 20172 votes

I think some of what he was saying is that since the assassin a update adc are pretty much useless. They can keep up even close in power as the assassin a which come in and one shot them. This problem is even recognize by pros who now use AP champs like ziggs as adc just because they do a better job. See, yes it's rengar job to one shot u, but not at lvl 1. That's just fucked. I'm not sure what riot would want to do about this because it's not balanced and it's not enjoyable. If ur playing a jinx and ur against a ezreal and doing well at kills, getting fed, then a rengar or a Evelynn who isn't very fed comes and one shots u, then that's the first clue that something is very wrong. But even before the assassin update they were struggling. If the adc didn't get fed then they ended up being crap, but when fed they were over powered. Neither fair or balanced. So the chances of riot fixing them without messing something else up is pretty low. This is what the other guy is saying. ADCs are unbalanced and now even more so. They aren't even pickable in game and ur better off picking a AP to fill the role.

KilanostJan 9, 20171 votes

If you think ziggs is less likely to get one shot than an ADC, you are retarded.

ADCs are more than pickable right now, ADCs just don't want to change their itemization to adapt to the situation.

JustSaiyan69Jan 14, 20171 votes

What items do we even have? Everything we had for survivability got nerfed: maw, steraks, qss. Armor pen is pretty weak. Now we just build crit, a little lifesteal for sustain, with an lw every game to be useful. Which takes like 4 items to get to and by that time mid, jg, or top has already snowballed and won the game so we don't even have enough time to build our items. How is that playable?

KilanostJan 14, 20171 votes

Down toward the end I mention the area where I somewhat agree with the overwhelming opinion of ADCs.

The argument you're actually making is that ADCs have poor early game presence. This is by design because if the game goes late, they are the dominant presence in most team comps. In 90% of games that go mid/late, the team fights are decided by whether or not the adcs can be kept from dealing damage which goes to show you how much influence they have in the game. The only difference is that over multiple seasons of ADC dominance, people have learned this and dive the ADC to remove the threat. As it stands, with zeal items and boots, you can generally kite in and out of team fights dealing damage while staying safe if your position is good.

What ADCs are asking for is high strength over the entire game. No champion class has this. Tanks are strongest mid game before void staff and LW items get built but weaker early and late. Divers are strongest early before team fights get rolling because diving when people are grouped gets you dead. The "strength" of divers comes from people letting them get fed. I want you to think back to the last time you saw a Vi or Lee that had a slow/rough early game. How much influence did they exert the rest of the game? Barely any. Assassins notoriously fall off late game (and generally deprive their team of safe wave clear and poke...this is more true for some assassins than others). And on and on and on. ADCs need to admit this is true if they are going to make rational arguments for any sort of change.

The nerfs to armor pen are what many people claim was the beginning of the end for ADCs. This argument has some merit in identifying that it was damaging to ADCs. However, the real effect that it had was making it so that ADCs had no other choice than to delay their power spike till late game. The armor pen build was the build option that allowed ADCs to sacrifice some late game dominance for more early game influence. This is something I personally liked though I did feel that it was a bit too strong (just a bit and certainly not warranting the massive nerfs to the build as a whole). And the elimination of this earlier game option is the real basis of the ADC issues. Without the armor pen option, they are forced into a build path that gives them the absolute latest power spike of any class (But also the strongest). This makes ADCs predictable. The predictability of this build path allows people to build almost full damage early and camp bot and dive turrets. Back at the height of the armor pen builds, I was very hesitant to dive an adc at his turret if there was any cc or mobility left in the lane because the adc could do enough damage to maybe outplay. Early crit builds just don't have the damage for that.

Consider the rising popularity of the 3 bf sword + zeal build. What is this actually accomplishing? It's simply a build option that gives ADCs more early strength at the cost of late game strength (They'll have to eventually sell at least 1 of those bf swords for a more meta-oriented full crit build). Also, early in the crit build, you are at the mercy of RNG. 3 bf swords takes a lot of the RNG out of your damage.

So the next time you want to chime in on ADC strength (which I hope you do) take a second to remember that what ADCs really lost to make them feel so weak is the option to build earlier strength at the cost of later strength. I am one of the biggest opponents of buffing ADCs (and by this I mean buffing the current meta build of ADCs) at the moment BUT even I recognize that every class should AT LEAST have options. I DO think ADCs should have their old build buffed to give them back that option, OR Riot should consider a new set of items that would give ADCs these options. A very, very simply starting point that I've seen mentioned to give more strength to a pen build would be lethality boots. I personally think that would be great (though completely abused by jhin).

So in short, what I am, and I believe most people who argue against ADC buffs, are saying is that the current crit meta build is not where ADC buffs should be applied. The buffs to the ADC class should come in the form of the option to have a build that gives them more early strength at the cost of the ridiculous late game strength of a full crit build.

tl;dr there is no tl;dr. But if you read what I wrote, you'll find that I'm being fairly reasonable in how I see this problem. ADCs need a change, just not the ones most people are thinking of.

JustSaiyan69Jan 15, 20171 votes

Yeah I think a small buff in lethality items would give adcs a bit of a larger presence early. I've read that in the next patch we might be getting that. Although I would prefer more defensive items, or at least a small buff to the ones we already have.

SpoofghoulJan 9, 20173 votes

removing masteries wont necessarily fix everything

they just need to cut adc late game power and shift it into their mid and early game, though mainly mid game

Get rid of the weaker turret bullshit, then buff all turrets to make them actual objectives, by this i mean a heavy defense buff to them and a small offensive buff through better ai and more damage when ramped up,

then give herald a team wide defensive buff which gives bonus health and armor or something like that, make it spawn 3 times

the other existing issues with classes can then be fixed through class updates

shift focus from making new champions to reworking those in need

AptestJan 9, 20173 votes

we had that. it was called the "armor pen build". Where lucian and jhin and mf basically dominated the mid game.

but a lot of people complained. Too much power early. Suddenly mr talon cant "do his job" because lucian will fight back.

so we are back to square one.

SpoofghoulJan 9, 20172 votes

well it wasn't completely the same thing since the built didn't exactly fall short late

and it was too generally strong with arpen now working vs turrets etc

and it prevented tanks or anyone building some early defense from being tanky

it would be better if midgame power were increased through abilities and lategame power being a tad reduced through less ad on crit itemization or making crit slightly weaker, perhaps even lowering the arpen on the last whisper items back to prebuff state

but i don't know maybe there are better ways

I think the arpen builds were too strong but that was also due to them being overloaded with extra stats through actives passives and cdr and still having high ad in addition to it being good vs turrets and being impossible to counter with defensive itemization

But adc being stronger midgame at the expense of lategame would definitely be an improvement and make gangbanging botlane less of a game decider

AptestJan 9, 20171 votes

well it wasn't completely the same thing since the built didn't exactly fall short late

It most certainly did, against tanks. It absolutely did not against assassins and mages and "duelists" because all these guys are either fully squishie or semi squishie and are vulnerable to burst damage and resist shred. Have you tried killing a built mundo or sejuani or Garen with the Arpen build? Downright impossible.

and it prevented tanks or anyone building some early defense from being tanky

Having a strong mid game means you can kill the targets that are in the mid game, rather than those same targets jumping you and deleting you.

But I guess your version of stronger mid game is "adcs get deleted by everything but by a smaller margin". which does not contribute to adc agency.

it would be better if midgame power were increased through abilities and lategame power being a tad reduced through less ad on crit itemization or making crit slightly weaker,

I think crit should be changed into %HP damage. "nullifying tanks" is what it should do and "2-shotting squishies with mega crits" should be less a thing.

being impossible to counter with defensive itemization

Arpen builds were easily countered by both health stacking (they all lacked AD and crit) or by just going more armor.

gangbanging botlane less of a game decider

gangbang bot lane is a deciding factor not because ADCs are weak but because there is so much gold on that one gangbang that you need 4-5 ganks elsewhere to offset.

KilanostJan 9, 20171 votes

Bot lane does not decide the game. In fact, my strategy for that nonsense is typically just to bulldoze the top lane and mid lane. It works. Try it.

AptestJan 9, 20171 votes

im not saying gangbang top lane does not also work. we are however facing a reality which is bot lang gangbang. Am just 'xplaining the rationale behing it

GayFluffyUnicornJan 9, 20171 votes

Well we can get back but then i want turnrates and dodge mechanics because it seriously is not fun to get killed in one Q+AA by lucian, mf.

AptestJan 9, 20172 votes

then you don't get the point. because you still want the "I jump on ADC and reliably delete him" mechanics in play. you just call it "they can't kite" and "I don't take their damage" instead of "tankyness in the mid game"

SleepyBeetsJan 9, 20171 votes

While I agree that the state that ADCs are in currently is by no means the best. I will say they are not as weak as people claim. I find that people in low elo(Below Plat 5) complain about high elo problems when they are not in the same boat as higher elo players who experience this APC botlanes. I can tell you as a ADC main since season 3 this APC and whole botlane issues are non existent in low elo. I can't count the number of times I whooped a ziggs or TF as Draven or Jinx in my current rating of G3. I find that people in low elo who pick these APC have no idea how to utilize them. They don't understand when to push/shove/freeze or why even they're picking ziggs. It just comes down to "oh that's what better people are doing".

And for that whole 5 man gank botlane meta I cannot say how much of a fiesta it is in low elo botlane. I have never experienced a clean five or four man gank that put me behind in the botlane, because people coming to gank don't understand power spikes or correctly being able to estimate their burst. So it comes down to a fiesta of summs being popped on both side and tower dives that at least result in the death in one of the enemies. And while I do see 5 or 4 man ganks it's not a common thing I say 1 out of every 20 games. So mostly 3v2 and those are really easy to turn around with a decent ADC like Draven.

And before I get attacked on saying it's non existent in low elo, let me explain. While I do see these APC picks in low elo I say it's no existent because people don't really know how to utilize them. It comes down to luck in a low elo botlane not picks. A champion is only good if you have the knowledge/skill to perform on what that champion does best.

And I can't leave without addressing your whole Jinx and Kog issues. Saying she is God awful at 15 minutes is no where near the truth. If you are not contributeing to the team fight as Jinx with a hurricane and bf. Your positioing must be utter shit. At 15 minutes there really is no straight tank. Hell more than half the time in low elo games there is no straight tank and even when there's a semi tank 90% of the time they either build a dmg item or a hybrid of dmg/tank. While there is mages that will do more you should still be doing DPS hurricane bf should give you a constant DPS of about 100 not to mention the massive attack speed you have with hurricane and jinx passive. So you should be second only to mages in dmg out put with good positioing which is a requirement to be a good ADC. So if you're struggling at the 15minute mark as Jinx with BF and Hurricane, take a look at what your doing wrong (positioing that's where my money is at) instead of just labeling an ADC as God awful because you lack the skill.

Other great example of you bring completely in the wrong is when you mention Kog, saying he doesn't exist anymore. I have only one response WTF Kog right now sits at a 54% win rate according to na.op.gg and guess what they only factor win rates from Platinum+. So how is Kog non existent when he sits at a fucking 54% win rate?

TL,DR People in low elo complain a whole fucking more than people in high elo in regards to higher elo problems. Am sorry to say that people below Platinum generally lack the skill or knowledge to be complaining about issue that are way out of their skill/knowledge and I finished Platinum 2 season 6 for a reference to this whole post and I main adc since I started playing in S3.

KilanostJan 9, 20173 votes

Normally I can't stand this view of issues where low elo people get no say because they apparently don't get it. (Seriously get off your high horse).

HOWEVER there is truth to this regarding ADCs and APCS bot. What it comes down to is that low elo players simply don't want to take two seconds to consider how to adapt their play and build to suit this new variable. High elo players wouldn't be high elo if they couldn't adapt to an extent.

I mean seriously how long has this bot lane APC thing been going on... A week....2 at most. I have yet to see anyone try building an early hex drinker into those lanes. No ADCs want to build the same way every game and not think about anything beyond how they deserve all the farm and how the entire game apparently depends on the entire team supporting them even if they're 2/9 and under farmed.

When I start seeing ADCs try to adapt to this new variable like every other lane that gets put in a tough matchup, that's when we can have a conversation.

JustSaiyan69Jan 11, 20171 votes

Well it's not only about apcs, this post is about adcs seeming weak as hell.