The biggest mistake Riot ever made was deciding that they wanted games to be snowbally and end faster.
Ever since the end of season 4 it's more unfun to play against just about everything in the game because being behind by 10-15 minutes is basically a death sentence.
I GANK LANES39 votesyeah honestly the last time i remember REALLY having fun playing league was s4.
nGio23 votesI've been happy since then. Once a year when we get URF, One For All, or Hexakill I'm happy for 1-2 measly ass weekends, before the bad RGM train comes back.
Malcha20 votesWere you guys around in S2? Because it was worse, way worse. Stacking bloodthirsters with 100 AD. Lichbane dealing 1.0 ap, the combination of that and OG DFG in the following season was miserable.
EVERYONE used to deal MORE damage. It's been scaled back. Snowballing was much worse as well.
Not to mention the absolute power of the original meta golem.
Champions like S2 Jax were just unstoppable monsters.
For newer players -> Atmas, Randuins, FON, Warmogs, Trinity, Mercs,
Dasdi966 votesWere you guys around in S2? Because it was worse, way worse. Stacking bloodthirsters with 100 AD. Lichbane dealing 1.0 ap, the combination of that and OG DFG in the following season was miserable.
EVERYONE used to deal MORE damage. It's been scaled back. Snowballing was much worse as well.
Not to mention the absolute power of the original meta golem.
Yeah, except towers were much sturdier back then. Back when I started league, if you lost a teamfight at the 25 minute mark, you will at most lose 1 tower and maybe a jungle camp. Now, expect to lose 2 towers, an inhib, and baron.
Eedat9 votesYeah, except towers were much sturdier back then.
LOL HELL NO. Towers legit had 1300 HP with 60 armor. Now they have 3500 HP with 40 armor. No clue what you're talking about. Towers are WAAAAAYYYYYYYY sturdier now than they were back then.
'Member berries strikes again. Oh, I 'memeber!
GayFluffyUnicorn18 votesApparently i played a different game than you. While individual players snowballed way easier you also could stall out games easily. Back then i didn#t lose my t1 tower in 6 mins and ending the laning phase to start the aram clownfiesta. Actual phases did still exist back then like"early, mid, lategame". Now after your first back and level 6 midgame starts. Lategame at 1 1/2 items. While a lot of people praise the "strategy" we now have in soloQ it's just an illusion coming from an overpowered botlane. They get ahead, swap top take herald, go mid, push two turrets, reset, get baron----> ResidentSleeper. Such strategy, many tactics.
Malcha2 votesApparently i played a different game than you. While individual players snowballed way easier you also could stall out games easily. Back then i didn#t lose my t1 tower in 6 mins and ending the laning phase to start the aram clownfiesta. Actual phases did still exist back then like"early, mid, lategame". Now after your first back and level 6 midgame starts. Lategame at 1 1/2 items. While a lot of people praise the "strategy" we now have in soloQ it's just an illusion coming from an overpowered botlane. They get ahead, swap top take herald, go mid, push two turrets, reset, get baron----> ResidentSleeper. Such strategy, many tactics.
Europe and NA were not the same place. Especially back then.
When champions like S2 Ryze, Fizz, or LB got ahead, there wasn't much chance to turn that around. So, sure you had a front tower, however teamfights were much worse and braving tower damage to wipe a time out had the same effect. Snowballing was a much bigger problem and had a stronger chokehold on the flow of the game back then.
Automated Riven3 votesExcept that the way items were, Leblanc and fizz fell off like rocks. Any assassin did. They were unable to team fight because the adc purchased a defensive item and they were unable to kill them. The only place Leblanc and fizz were op was bronze. In fact before leblancs first rework in season 3-4 she never got played even tho she did more damage. Because even tho she did a shit ton of damage she had counterplay. She had no wave clear and was succeptable to being shoved in permanently.
Leblanc specifically was known as "win in twenty minutes or lose"
Malcha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9Qv6grw,comment-id=0007000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T15:06:06.532+0000)
Except that the way items were, Leblanc and fizz fell off like rocks. Any assassin did. They were unable to team fight because the adc purchased a defensive item and they were unable to kill them. The only place Leblanc and fizz were op was bronze. In fact before leblancs first rework in season 3-4 she never got played even tho she did more damage. Because even tho she did a shit ton of damage she had counterplay. She had no wave clear and was succeptable to being shoved in permanently.
Leblanc specifically was known as "win in twenty minutes or lose"
Was gold S2. Based on your history it looks like you weren't even in ranked games in S2. So maybe that's where our difference in perspective on S2 comes in.
OG Leblanc was a lane problem, riot has admitted this as well. Yes, her wave clear was terrible, the issue is that her skills forced her opponent to avoid any interaction with her. There was no trading, and that was oppressive when it came to farming until her opponent was actually able to push wave. As most couldn't do it efficiently without a few levels and some farm. Level 2-5 against her in lane was an issue. While it's not entirely wrong that her presence was most strongly felt early, there's something to be said for her impact in that time being TOO high and not falling off hard enough. Leblanc feel off against tanks, who weren't her intended target, and GA/Zhonyas allowed you to work around her. However that's not the same as counterplay or a legitimate solution to the problems she posed.
Automated Riven1 votesshe did fall off against tanks. And teamfights. She was basically useless in teamfights because all she had was burst. IF she got cc'd with the mirriade of point and click stuns we had back then, she just died. ya she was super strong in lane but she did fall off like a rock. look up leblanc in the old boards and count the amount of times it was said to just survive past 20 minutes and win the game as it becomes basically a 4v5.
Edit I didnt play much ranked in season 1-2 But in season 2 I ended with 1280 something mmr IIRC i had the silver border and rewards. I think I just played a few games through promos tho. On lolking it shows me with 18 ranked games season 2. But I dont think it goes back all the way because I did play through promos in s1 also and lolking does not show it. I know i played through promos season 1 because I have the kayle skin that you got as a result of it.
Malcha2 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9Qv6grw,comment-id=000700010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T16:11:57.524+0000)
she did fall off against tanks. And teamfights. She was basically useless in teamfights because all she had was burst. IF she got cc'd with the mirriade of point and click stuns we had back then, she just died. ya she was super strong in lane but she did fall off like a rock. look up leblanc in the old boards and count the amount of times it was said to just survive past 20 minutes and win the game as it becomes basically a 4v5.
Edit I didnt play much ranked in season 1-2 But in season 2 I ended with 1280 something mmr IIRC i had the silver border and rewards. I think I just played a few games through promos tho. On lolking it shows me with 18 ranked games season 2. But I dont think it goes back all the way because I did play through promos in s1 also and lolking does not show it. I know i played through promos season 1 because I have the kayle skin that you got as a result of it.
I'm not saying I don't agree with that on some level. However there's something to be said for what she was capable of within those 20 minutes and how difficult it was to survive. There's a magnitude to that.
Automated Riven2 votesI agree. There definitely was magnitude. But imho there was relative counterplay to Leblanc as a champion. But it wasn't exactly in a 1v1 scenario. She did have the ability to bully extremely hard. To the same extent that renekton bullies extremely hard. But she did get out scaled by other mages in terms of effectiveness. Back then the other team had the very real ability to play passive and ward to avoid her incredible early and mid game. And it was quite common to see a Leblanc go 20-1 and lose later because she didn't use her lead well. Or in the right areas. I don't agree with the philosophy that champions cannot be blatantly stronger then other champions at certain parts of the game. Part of why the game is so bleh right now is because we don't have individual power anymore. Or at least it severely lessened.
Eedat16 votesThis is more or less nostalgia, not fact.
Back then turrets had 1300 HP with 60 armor as opposed to the 3500 HP with 40 armor that they have now. Turrets went down much quicker. They also gave a bunch of global XP. More FB gold. Less catchup XP. Dragon gave flat gold instead of a scaling buff. The vision system was completely merciless for the team thats behind. You get behind? You have little to no vision. There were no good options for coming back. You had to work against a team with vision of the entire map while yours was completely denied by an Oracles. Not that your team could even afford decent vision considering you had to pay gold for all of it.
As far as strategy goes, there has always been a 'best one' people use. Think another problem is that you're comparing the game when you were like Silver to games in Diamond now.
Games were far more snowbally back in season 2-3. Wihout a question. But hey, I'm sure this will be downvoted because it doesnt agree with the popular opinion. Everyone's dead set on this being the most snowbally time in LoL even though its not even close
Automated Riven6 votesThey snowballed harder. BUt they were harder to close out. It was far more common to see teams come back form 10K defficites back then.
Eedat4 votesBUt they were harder to close out.
Nope.
It was far more common to see teams come back form 10K defficites back then.
No it wasnt.
Towers were legit half as durable as they are now. Like I said, the nostalgia is strong.
Automated Riven2 votesWhy has the average gametime gone down so far then? If games were more snowbally and easier to close out then the games would have been shorter. But thats simply not the case. With the new baron its impossible to stop a team thats ahead from pushing and winning unless you force a teamfight and ace them. With old baron you could clear waves and defend the base.
Nik Nikerson1 votesThere's a difference at ease in which something can be done, and the time required to do it in.
You can have a scenario where it's harder for a team to come back from a deficit, but it takes longer for the game to get closed out. It just means the losing team just has to deal with an inevitable loss for longer, not that they have a better chance of coming back.
I'm not even saying the other guy is right, I'm just pointing out that longer games are not by default less snowbally.
Automated Riven2 votesThat's true. Until you consider that the gold lead means less and less the longer the game goes on. The gold lead becomes misleading the second that 1 person with the lead reaches 6 items. The longer the game goes the closer the losing team gets to being on equal footing. Ten thousand gold is almost a full item on every player in the mid game. But a full item at 2-1 items means more then 2-3 which in turn means more then 5-6 and as soon as someone caps then the gold lead starts decreasing from that point on. A 45-50 minute game means nothing with a 20k gold lead because everyone has 6 items.
Eedat12 votesEver since the end of season 4 it's more unfun to play against just about everything in the game because being behind by 10-15 minutes is basically a death sentence.
w0t? What about in season 5 when inner turrets gave shields which made it practically impossible to siege and games were 50 minute snoozefests of Ziggs and Xerath waveclearing at each other until 6 items?
Not xPeke5 votesStill better than 'muh, rotations' taking towers in 2 seconds with numbers advantage, rinse and repeat until you've taken all outer towers. Then baron and end.
At least you could actually play around inner turrets having shields by rotating and working hard for things to work out - not like now.
Eedat2 votesExcept rotation have literally always been a thing?
AninLegions7779 votesI'll state this. I prefer 40-50 mins intense matches that 15-25 mins stomps. Now every game is basically decided by one teamfight. Got 4 towers mid and get aced? You're losing 3 bud. And probably Baron. And drake. GG
Dengeden8 votesYou're still wrong. You have a defeatist mindset, that's all, the game is not over by 10-15 minutes in bronze any more than it is in LCS.
Unless you genuinely think it's good that certain champions would have to farm post-laning phase to be useful, which you shouldn't, the way the game changed so far is good.
Not xPeke18 votesThe way the game changed is good?
That's funny considering that the average Summoner's Rift game across ALL regions and ALL ELO's is < 30 minutes at the moment. It goes from around 29 minutes in Bronze, reducing more and more until matches are around 24 minutes in Challenger. EDIT: 27 in Challenger, 25 for Ranked Flex.
This is a huge change to the game as a whole. Games on Summoner's Rift used to last on average 35 minutes+. The old client itself used to advise players that games usually lasted between 35 and 40/45 (can't remember which exactly) minutes - a huge difference to now.
This sort of game is not designed to be and shouldn't be a fast paced game. If we wanted flashy plays and fast games we would be playing Call of Duty. The game's identity has completely changed.
Change for the sake of change is never good. Ask Runescape and even WoW how good all the unnecessary changes they introduced were. Even big and popular games can come crashing down if you exaggerate with shitty changes.
MankeyMadness3 votesNo one - much less Riot - wants 40+ minute games. I agree that towers being paper is a problem, but more for the fact that diving them after level 5 is hilariously easy and towers are not a safety net.
Bringing game length down is a good thing, it helps a lot. Half of Overwatch's popularity is the shortness of games.
Not xPeke8 votesI dunno man, LoL isn't the sort of game that's meant to be fast.. It wasn't like that in the past and ideally speaking it shouldn't be now. Overwatch is a completely different game, ofc shortness of games is a good thing in that case.
LoL got popular and became the top game in the industry (numbers wise) because of what it was. This just isn't the same game anymore sadly.
Most people that want short games are people with short attention spans or impatient people (not always ofc but still). Especially the younger people who need to have distractions and stuff at all times. And short games are also good because of LCS for its audience.
Why would Riot not want 40+ minute games if not for LCS? They literally designed games to be that long and the game got popular under those settings. All these changes and identity change are clearly due to hidden agendas thanks to Pro Play and maybe also due to trying to compete with other games. But the fact remains that they have indeed been warping the game's identity with time. It's not meant to be a fast paced game.. Especially when there were such things and distinctions as early, mid, and late game (talking about the different stages of the match, but also about different types of champions). The line distinguishing these different stages and even champions is getting thinner and thinner. Just like the line between burst and dps is thanks to damage creep.
And yes, the towers being paper and stuff, along with damage creep in recent seasons, is the reason matches are lasting less and less. Buffing them back up would hopefully mean that times would slightly increase a little and I'd personally be very happy with it :).
Bronze 6 Yasuo7 votesI disagree. What would be the point of playing assassins?
TheSingularity41 votesAssassins still had their place in s4, but right now everyone is an assassin
Handin Out Naps34 votesAssassins had their place in s4 because there werent a bunch of new support items to cockblock you. Leblanc and Talon still had their silences, and all of them still had their old burst speed.
Thefrostyviking8 votesWhich you should know why it was bad, if old talon or LB got a small lead they could easily snowball to end the game right then and there as long as their team wasn't boosted.
I would know since i mained midlane at the time, and i played both the champs.
They had exceptional mobility and if they got on to you as a slow carry then it was a instant greyscreen that you couldn't do anything about.
Hexdrinker was worth a fart against a LB with just a single kill.
Seekers armguards wouldn't save you from either talon or Zed if they got ontop you, which was easy given their mobility.
Current game is a lot healthier, post the ardent nerfs, for now we have tanks, supports of various kinds, a few marksmen, a few mages, assassins and divers being viable.
Even skirmishers.
Unlike before when we usually only had 2 classes viable at the same time, worst cases were the season 5 tank meta and the assassin meta in s3 where they were the only classes played.
Faceroll Tactics33 votesI’m not very happy with late season 7 as a whole.
I miss the times where I could actually play Udyr, Nasus, etc.
Now these champs are suicide bombers with faulty explosives. It’s truly sad that the support role invalidates all divers without gapclosers (and many who do)
And coming from WoW back in the day, I can clearly see Ghostcrawler is responsible for this atrocity.
Blåbæret22 votes[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9Qv6grw,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T12:26:38.167+0000)
And coming from WoW back in the day, I can clearly see Ghostcrawler is responsible for this atrocity.
Exactly. Said it countless times that this guy is bad for the game.
Metleon2 votes[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9Qv6grw,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T12:26:38.167+0000)
I miss the times where I could actually play Udyr, Nasus, etc.
Udyr has about a 53% win rate right now, so he's perfectly fine. His ganks aren't great but you can just get 2 items and then 1v1 just about anyone.
Thefrostyviking13 votesNasus and Udyr are both super toxic to play against when they do work, just look at the last buffs nasus got.
50% cdr on his Q, it make him nigh impossible to beat 1v1 when he gets just a few stacks.
A 90% slow, short CD, armor shredd, lifesteal.
He is literally one of the most toxic things to lane against unless you specifically counterpick him. If your team is even slightly lacking then it's impossible to stop him.
Udyr? Same as Ryze is most of the time, being a champ that wins by mashing buttons with 0 thought spent on it. His mains will claim that stuff like mana management and such is a important aspect,,,,,,except for when you have items or blue buff, then you can spam freely.
Also a champ that is super frustrating to play against when he has items or if you havent counterpicked.
' Both those champs are garbage by design, i´d say that the issue isn't ghostcrawler here, its you liking to abuse toxic champs and now being mad that the guy actually reworked/gutted them among all the other stuff he´s done.
It's the exact same deal as the LB or Rengar mains wanting their OP bullshit back so they can abuse it for freelo:/
And while it's fair to say that their reworks weren't well from a fun standpoint they did improve the champs in terms of having counterplay and not being so hella frustrating to play against.
Issue with all these champs is kinda like having a checklist.
Do you have YXA on your team? Congratulations you win.
Do you not have YXA on your team? Sorry you´ve lost in champ select, good luck next time.
87652677DEL12 votesyo udyr and nasus are still hella strong rn
Faceroll Tactics16 votesNasus winrate 48.42% Udyr winrate 49.02%
Taken from Plat+ Korea
Keep in mind riot gave these champions absurd buffs and they still suck because this game doesn't exist for immobile melee anymore
Advacus6 votesHere is the beautiful part of those statistics, there taken from Korea. I feel fair in assuming your playing in NA, which has a much different metagame and an entirely different feel about it. According to league of graphs on the most recent match udyr is shredding at 51.5% winrate plat and above. Gold and above its 52% winrate, so no both of those characters are viable currently.
Death by Glamour5 votesNot to be that guy but udyrs play rate really squews the figures.
Low play rate champions generally have a decent enough winrate
Tails90161 votesimmobile melee Udyr
https://i.imgur.com/OLkWw6Z.jpg[/img]
(Unless you're referring to the fact that he has no dash abilities)
Faceroll Tactics2 votesHe can only deal damage by hitting you, he’s got no reliable way into melee range because every goddamn champion has a slow or stun or displacement or something to fuck him over
Mimr8 votesWhich you should know why it was bad, if old talon or LB got a small lead they could easily snowball to end the game right then and there as long as their team wasn't boosted.
I would know since i mained midlane at the time, and i played both the champs.
They had exceptional mobility and if they got on to you as a slow carry then it was a instant greyscreen that you couldn't do anything about.
Hexdrinker was worth a fart against a LB with just a single kill.
Seekers armguards wouldn't save you from either talon or Zed if they got ontop you, which was easy given their mobility.
Current game is a lot healthier, post the ardent nerfs, for now we have tanks, supports of various kinds, a few marksmen, a few mages, assassins and divers being viable.
Even skirmishers.
Unlike before when we usually only had 2 classes viable at the same time, worst cases were the season 5 tank meta and the assassin meta in s3 where they were the only classes played.
Assassins? Viable? Not with supports throwing out 1k shields and heals left and right. Just looked up Lockets' stats because I thought the Soraka in my last match threw out some oddly large shields. Turns out Locket shields for 18 +22/level + 2-36% of bonus health. And gives 30 armor and 60 magres. For 2200 gold. I was really like "HOW THE FUCK DID THIS EVER MAKE IT INTO LIVE??!!" This kind of shit lets ADC survive stuff they have no business surviving. And lets them build full offensive so they dish out another ~25% extra dps (up until this S7 nonsense you HAD to build a defensive item on an ADC to not get instantly melted in teamfights).
As long as ADCs are basically unkillable by burst damage past the 20 minute mark assassins are never going to be viable unless you manage to go 10-0 and beating on their nexus by that time.
Automated Riven5 votesYou mean pre season 4 adc's bought defensive items. Imho the most cancer part of this game was when riot started making defensive offensive items.
Morendabanus7 votesAnecdote:
I was recently 10/2 as Rengar top, by around 26 minutes. I had EON, Youmuus and Duskblade, and I couldn't oneshot or even kill an overextended jhin because he had a Lulu support that was close enough to shield him.
Delaying assassin champions burst just made them all a joke. Every assassin that get's a rework to make them "healthy" and give them slower burst just makes them not worth playing. Rengar playrate went from 2% pre rework to .5% around patch 7.7, and is slowly climbing to .8% thanks to the number of onetricks very slowly recovering as the next season approaches and the hope for changes comes.
Shaco might as well be a minion.
Leblanc rework was ?XD? LUL
The idea of delaying assassins burst is okay, but it just doesn't fucking work on champions that relied on fast burst like Shaco, Leblanc and Rengar, and being lazy and slapping delays on anyway just guts them.
Fizz, Talon and Zed all are sort of okay after the reworks because their kits were already historically designed around having some delay and outplay potential, so they weren't massively punished by this being fiddle with a little.
Faceroll Tactics7 votesDon’t forget Kassawin
Penns8 votesExcept reworked assassins hehe
XxDRAGONsAK47xX5 votesYeah, very snowbally.
was 8-0 as Xayah in the first 15 minutes of a game. Proceeded to have the even jax destroy me in a 1v1 even though I ulted, flashed, and healed. All he did was leap twice.
Meanwhile veigar would press q and r and kill me.
Love point and click one shots
NocturnalSheild9 votesTo be fair jaxs whole existence is to kill squishys like xayah.
If you had your support like you should of you would of won 100 out of 100 times.
Morendabanus6 votesJesus christ adc players are so fucking stupid.
You as an adc are NOT meant to ever be able to 1v1 a semi decent Jax. Ever. Period. His design is pretty much made for dicking on autoattack based champions.
