What are LCS casters actually going to talk about in Season 8?

LegitBusinessman··143 votes·5,860 views

"Looks like we're gonna get a fight here and.... oh he just died instantly wow look at that damage." "Strong tank meta right now since tanks outdamage bruisers we're not seeing much action up there." "It seems red side adc has picked up two kills, blue team likely to give up inner and outer to make a play toward mid or top since they are unable to contest these objectives against such a monumental snowball."

After a 22 minute game let's take it to the caster desk:

"Well not much to talk about they got a few early kills and basically just walked all over the other team." "Yeah in my opinion with bot lane being down two kills I say you commit harder to the strategy next game: Just give up the bot inhib at 15 minutes to try and make a play on rift herald. Might be your best bet." "Not much to say really."

103 Comments

Penns99 votes

burst is so high that everyone gets blown up but tanks are also broken

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/256/183/9d5.png

MysterQ3 votes

Tanks are building 6 damage items. They melt people. but they get melted too! The tanks are melting, damage insane!

koshkyra32 votes

No.. they're building item 3001 item 3025 item 3068 item 3742 item 3071 etc which are all tanky items that compliment their horrific base damage.

Azeranth1 votes

Actually, that build there is something you'd build on Poppy, which yes is designed to be as brutalizing as possible. Also, get kited into Oblivion. Deamans passive is reduced by CC effects and that build has no righteous glory. Even with Mercs, your still numerically slower than zeal items and have very little mobility. Many Marksmen have a kite oriented CC ability

ChuShoe1 votes

What kind of poppy builds black cleaver and abyssal mask???

Azeranth1 votes

The kind of Poppy who beats down gnar, that's who

AirKingNeo27 votes

no tank is building Cleaver...

Troll for Trump1 votes

The cleaver tank mains are

AirKingNeo1 votes

so who exactly?

Not Poppy, not Ornn, not Cho, not Shen, not Maokai...

Terozu3 votes

Garen, Darius.

Laughing Fish15 votes

Those are Juggernauts not tanks lol

Terozu6 votes

Juggernauts, Wardens and Vangaurds are all tank subclasses it thought..?

Laughing Fish8 votes

Nah, Juggernauts are a sub-class of fighter. While a juggernaut such as Garen may rival a tank in terms of raw defensive power, he lacks any hard CC, strong engage or zone control tools. His kit is designed for for aggressive combat and to fight. He just has a lot of tankiness as his fighting style is brutal and requires him to charge into the thick of battle.

God Raijin8 votes

I find it kinda funny how defensive people get about these sub class things. It's like Skarner is considered a "juggernaut" but he has a built in shield, a slow and two hard CC's. I think people build him full tank as well.....but apparently.....he's not a tank. [sg-lux-2]

Steelflame1 votes

Generally the thing that will push a champ more to 1 side or the other is how they apply that CC, damage, and whatnot.

A tank generally has hard mobility, and hard CC. They tend to be good at CCing a crowd, and setting up Wombo Combos, or wrecking an enemy's attempt to wombo. They don't do a ton of damage, but said damage is almost never conditional, or delayed, either.

A Juggernaut tend to have no more mobility than either a speedup (Skarner, Garen, Volibear) or a very very short, targeted dash (Illaoi), backloaded damage (They don't have full DPS/burst potential until several seconds into a fight, look at literally everything called a Juggernaut for an example of delayed damage somewhere in the kit), and little to no CC.

They both tend to be fairly similar in durability, with an edge going to the tanks in upfront durability while Juggernauts tend to have massive healing or continuous ability to shield and block damage instead.

God Raijin3 votes

well Idk, Rammus is a tank and all he has is a speed up. When you capture a spire Skarner has some big MS on top of the MS of his W. Maybe not as much as Rammus, but still in the same ball park. Even Chogath is considered a tank even though he has no mobility other than buying item 3800. Cho only has one hard CC on top of everything with no "real" reliable engage, yet he can fuck up a carry on a level better than even Garen can. might I add, without even building any damage items either

Whisper871 votes

Juggernauts are more associated with staying in fights and melting over long periods of time, which is why a lot of them have heals that are combat base and most of them are AD scaling so they can build Black cleaver or Frozen mallet and build up melt damage over time. I think of Darius as kind of the quintessential juggernaut and Maokai as the quintessential tank.

So while Garen is spinning on your head and Darius is autoing and spinning for melt damage, Maokai is and Cho are way more gated by cooldowns. Tanks typically do medium amounts of burst damage on their spells, and have cc that is more geared towards team fighting and engaging group fights vs skirmishing or dueling.

While both classes can kill squishies, it's typically a little easier for juggernauts to secure the kill because they have more damage while a tank pretty much has to kill them during the CC (which is tough except in the very early game) or the carry will just walk away. Juggernauts are MUCH more effective at killing other fighters because of their tank-damage balance. Think of Darius (jugger) vs Jax (fighter). Darius gets to survive Jax early on because of the tankiness and healing, and he pumps out more damage than something like a Maokai would so he can punish Jax.

In general Tanks will either outscale Juggernauts or just become way more useful in fights (or both). Fighters will typically outscale Juggernauts as well, and some like Jax Irelia and Fiora will outscale the tanks too. Rammus is considered a tank because his cc is so reliable and he has strong engage, and his damage is not great, and he scales well in tankiness if not in utility.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Secretly no one actually understands the difference between tanks, juggernauts, wardens, etc., but no one's willing to admit it.

There is no difference

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/weirdalfoil_2322.jpg

PoppyTheWerewolf1 votes

poppy is a juggernaut if you did not know

God Raijin2 votes

idk i thought the rule was that juggernauts were basically immobile except for speed ups like garen Q. poppy has a gap closer on her E

GarthBrooksXD2 votes

malphite is building one to chop down maokai

Lit Corn3 votes

Garen JarvanIV " dw , im picking a tank" : item 3142 item 3147 item 3071 item 3814 item 3087 item 3026

Champion Skin3 votes

What tank builds item 3071?

jama6552 votes

Gnar

Wimbledofy2 votes

Gnar's a unique champ

LegitBusinessman72 votes

{quoted}

burst is so high that everyone gets blown up but tanks are also broken

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/256/183/9d5.png

Well it's the tanks doing the bursting you see.

Auz the Ripper15 votes

Please, Tanks aren't bursting* anyone. They're just the only thing that survives the burst. You know, victory by default.

*note: this excludes ornn.

Melledoneus6 votes

Well, most tanks don't burst. It's just that you either fully commit to surviving damage or dealing it. The in-betweens like bruisers suffer as a result.

Hibeki6 votes

Well no, when Leona does 65% of an ADCS health alone its a problem.

Melledoneus10 votes

You need to provide videos or numbers before you make claims like that.

Hibeki4 votes

Step 1) play bot

Step 2) play against leona

really i dont need to.

Melledoneus8 votes

Well, let's say that when you make an argument the burden of proof is on you, not on the person you're explaining it to.

You can use numbers and calculations, videos, or pictures. Just back up your claim with evidence.

Whisper873 votes

Well Riot openly said in the patch nerfing Leona's damage that they thought her burst with Aftershock was too much so that's why they tuned her damage down. So keeping in mind that it's only been like a week since that change came down, and the fact that Leona is still really successful right now (according to champion pick/ban and win rates on public sites like LOL King and OPGG) it's very possible that she specifically is still overtuned and it's also possible that shockwave is overtuned and is the real culprit. Will have to wait to hear more from Riot on this as the season gets closer.

I personally also agree that there is too much focus on early game burst damage and snowball early leads. Not just like early/mid game champs either, snowballing right now is an issue even with scaling champs (i.e. maokai going aftershock instead of grasp or guardian).

Issues:

Aftershock: Pros - allows tanks to provide some damage in the early game that way they are not useless until they become a quality cc bot/meat shield.

Cons-Tanks are not supposed to be snowball champs, but ones more focused on group fighting. If they get ahead early because of aftershock's damage they become a monster in the mid game as their cc and beefiness comes online, but the enemies have not outscaled aftershock damage yet because they are only like lvl 9-10.

Electrocute: Pros-allows assasins to scale better into late game so they have a higher rate of success against squishies, and they can even get fed off tanky champs since it will take longer for a tank to build enough defense to survive this level of burst. Cons-longer cooldown than thunderlords so it's not great for in lane trading but is still better for planned all ins (which is what assassins are built for).

All the damage available in secondary tree: Pros-provides a very clear difference between someone who wants to just get through lane phase versus someone wanting to push the lead and be aggressive. Cons-if you go defensive or utility options in second tree you are giving up very noticeable amounts of damage (think of things like gathering storm and burn options in the sorcery tree, or cheap shot/lethality buff in domination). This means that if you go a defensive option in your secondary tree in order to get through laning and scale up, it takes even LONGER to outscale because you're not just fighting the enemy's xp and items, but their passive damage gain through runes as well. In some matchups it might even take huge chunk out of the value of scaling (think like a Caitlyn going Precision, then taking Gathering storm and Celerity in the sorcery tree as her secondary, then Tristana on the other end goes Precision and then defense for second tree. The outscale of trist is Much less noticeable at the post 30 minute mark.) Let's not even talk about how far behind you get set back as an ADC if you go ninja tabi over zerker greaves in the current state of the game.

The nerf to base defensive stats: Pros- makes early game burst stuff and poke more viable. They have a larger window for success because it takes longer for them to get outscaled. Getting multiple tanks with a scaling ADC is less OP. Cons- not only does burst damage feel overprioritized in the game as a whole (both all in and poke style), but even if you are playing an early game champ who has their own burst, if you get even a little behind to like a Maokai you feel like you can get clapped cuz you're squishy as hell.

Summary: These are only a few of the issues but I've listed some big ones so that this novel isn't even longer. There are a lot of if's and but's in here. Everything feels like a gamble. Everything is great if you do well early, but feels horrid if you get behind early. Your teammate feeding their lane is even harder to carry through. You get punished too hard for every little thing. It feels like the only reliable strat is going for really strong lanes, or going for stuff that has really good power spikes in the early and/or mid game. Scaling comps, team fight comps, disengage/re-engage comps, sacking a lane with a low econ laner like a utility mid or tank top, all these feel really hard. Huge swaths of champs and strats are being edged out, windows for outplay and out building (like going ninja tabi on a adc to survive lethality building enemies) are getting smaller, and one-sided games are as boring as they have ever been (whether you are winning or losing). I'm the type of player who strives to play as cleanly as possible from beginning to end no matter how the game is going (and I think there are a lot of us out there). By the time I get so far ahead that I feel like I don't need to play cleanly I'm ready to move on to the next game, and I don't want Riot to make it easier to close and the average game time even smaller. I want Riot to think more of tug o war and less of pushing over a line of dominoes.

SOLUTION: remove aftershock in favor of another option that is more in line with the "tank" identity rather than just a raw power buff, then give everyone back roughly the same amount of base armor and magic resist they would have had under last season's rune and mastery system. This way bruisers and assassins only snowball really hard if they are being mindful of their windows and playing consistently well, not just playing well early on then playing like a monkey cuz they are snowballing so hard off stats/damage synergies.......AND tanks won't clap everyone without a defensive mechanic in the early/mid game. BOOM, people can stop complaining about burst damage being so strong AND those snowball damage champs can stop complaining about losing duels to tanks who are supposed to be team cc bots not duelists. AND AND AND, less troll comps because the removal of so much snowball potential means that people picking all AD or all AP comps is much more punishable since their window to snowball is smaller! And play patterns become more unique based on champion selection since it will take longer to get to the point where you can just run at the enemy constantly (so if you're playing a spit push champ like teemo you will actually have to split push for a large portion of the game like you are built to do, not just walk up to a fight and q someone for 80% of their hp because your team got a 4 kill lead with first tower blood).

Melledoneus3 votes

This, ladies and gentleman, is how you craft an argument.

A bit on the lengthy side, yes, but the structure still remains.

Kudos to you, good sir/m'am.

Thefrostyviking8 votes

Boards are having a hard time deciding on what we think as usual.

The Lexer3 votes

The truth is, every class has a few OPs right now. The high damage champs are getting a lot of attention right now, but there are a few unkillable tanks--Maokai comes to mind. Every class has a champion that can be broken with the new runes.

Unfortunately, the boards don't have the brain power to understand that, so we are trapped into the cycle of "everything is OP"

LegitBusinessman4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lexer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6yx14bYa,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2017-12-17T17:33:10.865+0000)

The truth is, every class has a few OPs right now. The high damage champs are getting a lot of attention right now, but there are a few unkillable tanks--Maokai comes to mind. Every class has a champion that can be broken with the new runes.

Unfortunately, the boards don't have the brain power to understand that, so we are trapped into the cycle of "everything is OP"

I'm absolutely fine with maokai being unkillable. I'm absolutely not fine with eating 500 damage from saplings.

Sasogwa9 votes

{quoted}

burst is so high that everyone gets blown up but tanks are also broken

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/256/183/9d5.png

When damage is overpowered, CC is overpowered. If it take 1 second to die, the tank just has to cc you 1 second and win.

General Esdeath 4 votes

Every season at least for one month people cry about tank meta that doesn't actually exist at the time

It's come early this time [sg-lulu]

T4underbolt3 votes

Yeah because j4 with cinderhulk only oneshotinv squishy midlaner with one combo is completely fine. Rammus with nothing but bami cinder 100-0 you in duration of a taunt lvl6 while diving turret is fine too.or maybe blitzkrank with support item using q,r,auto,e for 100-0 on your adc is fine as well?

Yordle Xayah40 votes

"Oh, a Three Man Dive in the Bot lane, looks like an easy double kill, that's first tower gold at 4 mins for CLG"

Bottom Laner36 votes

at least this time around it's coherent sentences over "item 3504."

charge attack19 votes

FAKER

ARDENT CENSOR

Bob the Toastr7 votes

That's about all the words that came out of the casters' mouths at Worlds.

korg02333 votes

"Oh it seems blue team got first tower , let's take it to the analyst desk! "

charge attack6 votes

Wait wait... we just heard that the red team is SKT. Let’s wait till 50 minutes for them to win.

Douglas Funnie19 votes

"The RNG seems to be in TSM's favor. Looks like they have made it through Worlds Group Stage!"

MysterQ7 votes

TSM got Group E, they are the ONLY team in it. This is the year boys, group of life getting out of groups!..... the hell we have 3 imports we are disqualified, who, why. T..S..M

Madjack0116 votes

Hyperbolical posts are easily relatable to and thus must be right :P

Shrek Luigi8 votes

"Here comes Ornn for the 1v5! The crowd is getting pissed off going wild!!"

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