Champion identity is being destroyed by upfront damage, decreased time to kill

LegitBusinessman··208 votes·24,747 views

I remember when Bard was released as a versatile roamer, leave lane to collect meeps (Is that safe? Can your adc manage?) awesome roaming potential. You know what bard does? He meep autos you for 1/3 of your hp in lane now and takes ignite and sits in your face. His identity is gone.

Soraka? The champion who is supposed to be a healbot to get your late game carry to peak potential safely? Yeah we don't do that anymore. We just max E and poke em down.

Champion identity is being destroyed by lower time to kill and upfront damage. Why heal on soraka if i can take aery and scorch and just E you to death. The strategy of the game is dissolving. It really boils down to 'what does the most damage safely and in the shortest amount of time.' Time to kill is way too short. It has been since pre-season dropped.

123 Comments

Teridax6876 votes

To start with a bit of a tangential story: when developing F.E.A.R., a FPS to this day famous for having one of the smartest enemy AIs, Monolith Productions were testing different ways of balancing enemies. What they discovered is that, when enemy soldiers had more health, they felt smarter than the exact same enemies with less health, even if they also had exactly the same AI. Effectively, one of the biggest factors in the player's perception of the enemy's intelligence had nothing to do with their actual behavior, but rather with the time the enemy had to execute said behaviors, afforded by their additional health reserves.

To tie this back to League, I agree with the OP, and I think part of the problem is that League feels less deep precisely because everyone deals too much damage, and people die too quickly. To pick a couple other non-League examples, it's kinda like the difference between Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2, where the latter's longer fights allow for more outplays and reactions, whereas the former's frequently boil down to whoever pulled the trigger first. When everyone dies too quickly, it's difficult to have individual champions express their own unique strengths, enact more complex strategies, or make interesting tactical choices in combat, because there's simply no time for any of that to happen. On one hand, this has made a lot of champions blend into each other, but it's also made certain classes completely dysfunctional, as fighters and assassins frequently die in the time it takes for them to approach and engage their target. Pulling back on some of this damage, and giving meaningful damage only to champions for whom damage is a core contribution, could help immensely in restoring some of League's depth.

SpecterVonBaren25 votes

Reminds me of a conversation I heard from a game podcast that was talking about the Dead Space series. One of the people said something to the effect of, "Headshots have ruined shooters for me" because so many games would boil down to getting a headshot and immediately removing an enemy from a fight.

But with Dead Space you didn't have a way to instantly remove the enemies like that (At least not early on). Enemies took more time to take out since only incapacitating them would stop them so you'd have to do things like just take out a leg from three enemies so they'd come at you slower and follow up with outright killing them afterwards.

XxDRAGONsAK47xX14 votes

Fucking hate head shots.

I love Rainbow Six: Siege dearly. The game is amazing and deserves all its praise.

But when 3/4ths of my deaths are to 1 shot head shots it pisses me off. because how can I react to that? How can I outplay or turn a fight around? 1 shot abilities make the game unfun and boring. It makes the game straight up tilting.

Marshbouy6 votes

Fucking hate head shots.

It's why I don't like playing FPS games and why enjoying OW can be a huge struggle for me at times. There is nothing fun about getting on hit by widowmaker.

forresto2 votes

I hate overwatch cause there's no sense of progression. No champ levels, no item choices, not to mention there's maybe 20 characters that are all available from the getgo. it just gets monotonous after a couple hours.

Yaosuo8 votes

Sounds like a GP barrel to me :))))

Snowman Arc6 votes

Zoe Q LUL.

RainXBlade2 votes

That's one of the things I loved about Dead Space. That simple concept of "dismemberment, not headshot" really created a unique experience when I first played it. The fact that headshots don't completely eliminate a necromorph creates a good amount of depth and forces you to actually aim for the limbs, making you expend more ammo, other than go for that "one headshot, one kill" instinct.

JoeMG16 votes

{quoted}

To start with a bit of a tangential story: when developing F.E.A.R., a FPS to this day famous for having one of the smartest enemy AIs, Monolith Productions were testing different ways of balancing enemies. What they discovered is that, when enemy soldiers had more health, they felt smarter than the exact same enemies with less health, even if they also had exactly the same AI. Effectively, one of the biggest factors in the player's perception of the enemy's intelligence had nothing to do with their actual behavior, but rather with the time the enemy had to execute said behaviors, afforded by their additional health reserves.

To tie this back to League, I agree with the OP, and I think part of the problem is that League feels less deep precisely because everyone deals too much damage, and people die too quickly. To pick a couple other non-League examples, it's kinda like the difference between Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2, where the latter's longer fights allow for more outplays and reactions, whereas the former's frequently boil down to whoever pulled the trigger first. When everyone dies too quickly, it's difficult to have individual champions express their own unique strengths, enact more complex strategies, or make interesting tactical choices in combat, because there's simply no time for any of that to happen. On one hand, this has made a lot of champions blend into each other, but it's also made certain classes completely dysfunctional, as fighters and assassins frequently die in the time it takes for them to approach and engage their target. Pulling back on some of this damage, and giving meaningful damage only to champions for whom damage is a core contribution, could help immensely in restoring some of League's depth.

Really solid point. I always preferred Halo to CoD for that reason.

Skill expression has been drained from this game for a while now. Damage and snowballing has been running rampant. Winning doesn't even feel like an accomplishment anymore.

IxozieI2 votes

{quoted}

Really solid point. I always preferred Halo to CoD for that reason.

Skill expression has been drained from this game for a while now. Damage and snowballing has been running rampant. Winning doesn't even feel like an accomplishment anymore.

I loved the original Halo. First FPS I ever played for more than a few hours. The shield mechanic and how much longer it took to kill people in general made fights a lot more interesting.

Raije7 votes

{quoted}

To start with a bit of a tangential story: when developing F.E.A.R., a FPS to this day famous for having one of the smartest enemy AIs, Monolith Productions were testing different ways of balancing enemies. What they discovered is that, when enemy soldiers had more health, they felt smarter than the exact same enemies with less health, even if they also had exactly the same AI. Effectively, one of the biggest factors in the player's perception of the enemy's intelligence had nothing to do with their actual behavior, but rather with the time the enemy had to execute said behaviors, afforded by their additional health reserves.

To tie this back to League, I agree with the OP, and I think part of the problem is that League feels less deep precisely because everyone deals too much damage, and people die too quickly. To pick a couple other non-League examples, it's kinda like the difference between Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2, where the latter's longer fights allow for more outplays and reactions, whereas the former's frequently boil down to whoever pulled the trigger first. When everyone dies too quickly, it's difficult to have individual champions express their own unique strengths, enact more complex strategies, or make interesting tactical choices in combat, because there's simply no time for any of that to happen. On one hand, this has made a lot of champions blend into each other, but it's also made certain classes completely dysfunctional, as fighters and assassins frequently die in the time it takes for them to approach and engage their target. Pulling back on some of this damage, and giving meaningful damage only to champions for whom damage is a core contribution, could help immensely in restoring some of League's depth.

Well said bro. For me fun boils down to how many meaningful choices I can make in a game. Having slightly faster or slower reflexes should only help so much in a strategy game like LOL.

Teridax6810 votes

I agree with this. Reflex-testing is an acceptable, but tremendously limited form of gameplay, particularly since there's an increasing amount of evidence showing that there's pretty much a hard limit, and that practicing doesn't help that much until you arrive at a very high-level stage where reacting to very specific scenarios turns into muscle memory. Even beyond that, general mechanical plays are only a fraction of the plays that can be done in a game like League, as good tactical decision-making and dynamic strategizing are also components that deserve much more importance than they do currently. There are some more recent champions, like Warwick, that ease up on the mechanical gameplay in favor of other types, but unfortunately the vast majority of League's gameplay has become almost exclusively mechanical, with far less done to encourage meaningful tactical and strategic outplays.

forresto5 votes

Me: "Hey guys, let's go take that tower." My team: "Nah we need the kill gold." Me: "-.-"

Z3Sleeper2 votes

This is the reason I've always preferred Halo over CoD. Even if oneshots exist, they existed through skilled kill setup rather than one-shot one-kill (excluding power weapons).

forresto4 votes

This is even worse for ADC champs. If an ADC gets fed, they start instakilling any squishy ppl who get in range. (obviously contradicting the entire premise of adc, namely sustained damage over burst) meanwhile in the same vein they tend to get instakilled by anyone who reaches them. This is added to the fact that a large majority of their damage is single-target non-skillshot, so most champs are unable to utilize their mobility tools to outplay them if the adc is fed.This is just a miserable paradigm for everyone because either the ADC is way too strong, or they don't matter. As a sign of this trend, Mundo just got that massive buff to his ult. (an extra 2/3 effective power at max rank) That wasn't necessary because burst mages or assassins got stronger. Its a direct sign that ADC champs are doing way more damage than they used to. (sry this is a bit rambly cause Im running on 5 hours sleep)

LegitBusinessman8 votes

I agree with this 100%. It's something I felt for awhile. When time to kill is lower, fights are** shorter**, and there are **less opportunities for skill expression. **

Someone on a different thread mentioned that lower time to kill means LCS is extremely risk adverse. This has been the least entertaining season to watch. Additionally 80% of the population in silver/gold/lower plat are seeing games that are extremely snowballed and volatile.

Also to your point on champions blending into each other. Syndra is the quintessential - If I land this stun I can pop you. This is her identity. Yet nowadays Bard in lane plays the same way. If I land this stun on you, i have meep auto electrocute ignite. They start to play the same way, and yet they were not developed to have a similar identity. Bards utility is not the core of his identity as much as it is an added bonus.

Tomoe Gozen5 votes

#WOW EVERYONE, LOOK HERE!

A sensible, well constructed argument that gives us an example from a different game developer on making intelligent gameplay decisions, which is relative to how much time it takes to kill a target for your decision to have an impact - no matter on which end of the line you are. An argument that doesn't call out Rioters as brainless retards, bronze players or in any way, shape or form is demeaning others in order to prove a point and also insulting anyone's intelligence.

An argument that has at least a correct frame of mind where you, as a reader, can put yourself in and at least think for yourself that it makes some sense in going down this path. An argument that's not wildly emotional/spewing insults left and right aimed at someone (or a group of people) for no other reason than to rally idiots into raising pitchforks and torches just because one individual thinks there's a problem but does not go out of their way to explain themselves.

One man can only dream that the boards stop with their bullshittery and move forward to proper discussions but... that's just a dream that you eventually wake up from and forget the moment you try to remember it. A shame, really.

Kitten of Evil29 votes

Damage is too high on almost everyone. It feels like the game has moved away from planning and strategizing with warding and smart play. Now it's just a reflex test. Oh you didn't mash your Zhonya's before Zed killed you? Too bad! Oh, you needed to mash your heal button just 1/4 of a second faster on your ADC. Now you're both dead!

k wìx22 votes

I still strongly feel like one of the biggest problems with 'Runes Reforged' is how limited defensive options became for the early game laning. **You basically have to wait until 10 minutes before you can become tanky enough to deal with the damage no matter which page you pick as a squishy champion. **

Another big problem that no one seems to talk about is that before, you could build a page of runes to help you DEAL with specific matchups. This can't really be done anymore - to a certain extent you can, but it's not nearly as effective as it used to be. Focusing against 'Physical Damage' is basically a single rune choice. Same with AP Damage.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

I really miss my full defensive rune page for when I wanted to go with an Enchanter support but be durable enough to not get killed by the enemy hard engage support.

154221 votes

that's true most champs have ridiculous damage, nowadays you can be tanky and enemies still melt ya down easily, this thing of "champs having too much dmg" was riot excuse to transform talon in another champ with slower dmg, the problem is that there's rengo kha and zed bursting people in 1 second and that's perfectly fine.

Shaydrox9 votes

{quoted}

that's true most champs have ridiculous damage, nowadays you can be tanky and enemies still melt ya down easily, this thing of "champs having too much dmg" was riot excuse to transform talon in another champ with slower dmg, the problem is that there's rengo kha and zed bursting people in 1 second and that's perfectly fine.

I'm a Talon onetrick, and he pops people really quickly too. Honestly this whole game could use a damage lowering rebalance, seriously it's too much at this point.

The fact that adcs, the main DPS class, are killing people in 3 hits should say something...

Ardond2 votes

yeah the triangle in theory should be

Burst > sustained damage (ADC) > Tanky > Burst with things like bruisers as a sort of in-between

but as of right now ADC's cover burst and sustained damage because their auto attack damage is so high.

Yordle Xayah15 votes

When Riot doesn't know how to balance a character, they just add more damage to their kit. It's weird. It has led to some enchanters becoming meta in solo lanes and some tanks dealing way too much damage at times. Shows a very linear-single minded way of improving a character.

SwiftKitten8812 votes

it's (champion identity) been dropping since season 5... with the introduction of keystones, but the runes reforged did also greatly increase damage

then of course the added burst items like item 3147 and item 3094 to break item 3087

i mean the fact that they needed to add +healing/shielding on support items and items like item 3109 anditem 3193 in the first place makes it blatantly obvious how out of hand damage has gotten.

but thats for another time, first make the game playable by reverting the jungle. THEN u can address damage creep

ModWulf Helhammer56 votes

...

Shiv has been an item since League basically started.

Was added in patch 1.0.0.152

DW Diana8 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LMGEIQtE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-05-25T06:20:39.709+0000)

...

Shiv has been an item since League basically started.

Was added in patch 1.0.0.152

Love the downvotes for stating a fact. Upvoted xD

Purgë5 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LMGEIQtE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-05-25T06:20:39.709+0000)

...

Shiv has been an item since League basically started.

Was added in patch 1.0.0.152

i think he means shive + rapid fire canon interaction wich allow for a huge burst

Bârd5 votes

The damage doesn't stack. It hasn't for a long time.

ZGM Raven4 votes

To be fair the actual effects still work together, as in you get the range boost as well as the AOE at the same time.

XeroKimo4 votes

Man, league's old preseason patch versions are so misleading, if anyone wants a bit more detail. That's preseason for going into season 3. Statik shiv replaced a similar item known as Ionic spark, so technically, the item has existed since League basically started

Sire Hippington19 votes

it was added in S3 and had 100 basedamage, so 250 with crit. now it scales to 140, so 350with crit, and till not so long ago it even was at 160(400), so quite some difference. It also did onlz give 20% crit.

Damge creep is certainly a thing and there is no denying it, and it didn't start just this season.

forresto4 votes

I mean look at mundo. They had to nearly double the power of his ult....

Yaosuo4 votes

But they're bringing back atma's now. With a jungle mundo build like Cinderhulk, visage, warmogs, gargoyle's, atma's, and mercs, he will run at you, you will try and cc him but guess what, he has cc reduction from w and mercs so he will continue running at you with 500 ad (fully stacked atmas and e), going up to 700 ad (fully stacked atmas, gargoyle's and e). WHILE ALSO HAVING 4000 HEALTH, AND GUESS WHAT, WITH GARGOYLE'S THAT'S NOW 8000 HEALTH.

LTK KoRo4 votes

But... using gargoryle would waste more than half of this huge AD number.

BoilTheOil5 votes

but shiv used to not do as much damage

Hügö10 votes

Champion identity died long ago when riot shifted powerspikes from champions to items.

Sõna9 votes

new reforged rune system makes the champion identity gone, why? because most of the damage/utility comes from rune

old mastery system, the stat wasn't too op or too useless. Old Riot balance team said that they did not want the mastery to become the one that controls the game, but gameplay/skills matters.

What now? whoever pick a good rune + meta champion > any try hards.

PokladnicaZla6 votes

Same happened with Rakan a few patches ago. They upped his AP ratios,like couldn't you have been more creative with supports? As they're a utility class and not a damage oriented one?

Nea1045 votes

Everyone said that since pre-season: too much damage, totally out of control. They did even worse. And finally players are leaving more and more. Good job :D

Madsin253 votes

This. Riot are acting like complete idiots.

You can go on these boards and see 100 posts about how the damage is to high and the game sucks.

What do they do? They raise the damage.

Drugoth5 votes

I remember having to trade a few times first to get the enemy low before going for the kill. Now everyone avoids trading like the plague, because what used to be a trade that would take 1/3 of your health has turned into a slip up that ends with you dead, even at full health.

Remember when Riot removed Deathfire Grasp? Remember why? Now you just die in an instant, and it feels like the only way you could have avoided that death is by staying in base, rather than just outplaying the enemy.

Nausicäa 5 votes

Ya damage creep in this game is a absolute fucking joke but Riot doesnt seem to give a shit or its their intention for some reason and they arent being transparent.

Remember when Zed used to have to poke you down a few times before attempting to ult you for a kill? This season tho? Nah just W-Q-E combo for 70% of your HP at lvl 5. He literally kills you without his ult now and only a item 3134 A champion thats supposed to be based around his ult for getting kills.

Remember when Yasuo needed an IE and Shiv before he would 100-0 you. This season? Nah gets a zeal Tornado ult ignites you for 100% of your hp.

Strawberrycocoa5 votes

The whole game went from a teamwork focus to a bloodsport arena to cater to the people watching the games on streams. The bloodsport is all they really seem to care about now.

PhantomGG4 votes

who needs Zed when Bard can get it done at a much safer distance

JRobin314 votes

I think RIOT should do an examination of damage in the game without the intent to implement some new-fangled cool idea. Basically, they need to start by revisiting true damage. Let's say that one champion in the game has too much true damage... well that means that in order for the game to stay balanced, everyone has to do more damage in general. Visit the worst case scenarios fist back off a little on damage that bypasses defensive measures.

For example, let's say you have a champion that does percent health damage (percent current, percent missing, percent max). Think about what that means. That means that they are bypassing the defensive measure of buying items that give more health. That's not a good thing. So tone it down, back it off.

Once RIOT does an exam of the worst offenders, they can get down to balancing the damage for all champions. Because once you back off on the true damage and percent damage and penetration damage options, etc., etc., then you can balance the other damage in the game to be reasonable.

For example, people have a lot of complaints about Yasuo. They talk about his mobility, or his windwall, or his ult putting him outside turret range, or his double crit chance, but what I don't see people complain about very often is his 50% armor penetration on ult. But if you think about it, Yasuo has to have 50% armor penetration on his ult in order for his damage to be balanced with all the rest of the outrageous amounts of damage that champions do.

For example, ADCs have a line of items that moves them to ridiculous late game damage. This is by design. But the disturbing part of that is that it is by design so as to conform to META. ADCs have to have this kind of damage to conform to META and that makes damage every out of control too. So this has to be re-imagined in a way that doesn't conform to META. The multipliers on damage can be scaled back and raw AD can be brought back as the main source of damage increase. Multipliers include: attack speed and crit chance (which incidentally happen to exist on the same items because why not?), and armor penetration and percent increase based on health of enemies (which incidentally happen to be on the same item). If you think about it, an item likeitem 3036 can't be balanced unless it does have stacking damage multipliers because the other ADC options have stacking multipliers. So ADC itemization is a disaster (and, of course, it enforces conformity to META). Maybe ADCs want this conformity because they want to be able to play any of the ADC options in more or less the same basic ways. Well, that's bad for game. RIOT should force them out of their comfort zone.

Once all the more unreasonable forms of damage have been scaled back, and the rest of the champions get scaled to deal their appropriate amounts of damage... I think the balance team should be able to take care of the rest. Defensive and offensive options should come into better focus.

One more thing, changing defensive options is definitely not the place to start in fixing the damage problem. The reason is that defensive options are too easily bypassed in the first place by things like true damage and percent health. So if defensive option get buffed it aggravates the situation of having defended against most champions but not really gained any defense and the major offenders. And the only way to balance that difference will be to increase damage across the board. And then, we will be right back where we started and complain again.

For example, let's say RIOT buffed armor. Every armor item now has more armor. well, armor doesn't work against true damage. So armor didn't do anything to stop the major offenders.. it just nerfed everyone you was trying to keep up with the major offenders in the first place. So that necessitates a buff to everyone who does physical damage. And you have a champion like Yasuo who can ult for 50% armor penetration. And he's going to be one of these champions that will need a physical damage buff. Do you see? There's a vicious cycle that happens here where you can't balance the damage in the game because maybe there is one or two (or a few champions) in the game that do percent health true damage.

Let's look at Fiora. When Fiora was reworked they wanted her to 'be a threat'. And the cool idea to make that happen was percent health true damage. And maybe you think, "okay, but it's just one champion that can do that..." And that's where the designer falls into a trap from which he can never escape. Because once you have even a single champion that can just ignore any and all defensive measures that would be built against it, all champions in the game have to be balanced around it. And as long as that exists, the damage can never ever ever be balanced. it just isn't possible. So more champions come out or get reworked and they have to have some sort of true or percent health damage in order to 'be a threat'. If they don't, then they can't be balanced in the game because if even one champion gets to ignore all defenses, then all champions will eventually need to have their damage buffed. And it wasn't that long ago that RIOT decided to buff Chogath with his percent bonus health true damage. And if you think about it, something like that eventually inevitably had to happen in order to keep Cho'Gath's damage balanced with the rest of the game.

So because buffing armor won't stop something like percent health true damage, using a buff to armor as a starting point won't fix the problem in the long run. In fact, it will eventually just make things worse. And everyone will be left scratching their heads and wondering what can be done to fix this intractable problem with the game. And the problem is really just that there was this one really cool idea that designers wanted to have on one champion in the game.

Is there a place in the game for percent health true damage? IMO, there is. You could put it on a summoner spell like ignite and balance it that way. But you cannot give it to one champion in the game as your cool idea to make that champion 'be a threat'. Now, I'm not saying the if RIOT fixes Fiora, then all their damage problems go away. Some smart designer might read this and think that that's what I'm saying, but the problem is too big now. The damage has creeped in at the seams and there is a long list of champions doing true damage, and champions doing percent health damage, and champions with ridiculous armor penetration, and what not and all these sorts of things are delicate. If defensive itemization becomes pointless against any one of these champions, the system breaks down all over again and we get damage creep all over again. So RIOT has to do an examination of every champion and every item in the game and fix all of the biggest offenders first if they want to get the damage creep back under control.

What about champions that are supposed to instantly delete enemies? Someone might ask what we should do about a champion like Leblanc. I shake my head at you. Have you understood nothing I've said? There is no problem with Le Blanc. There is no problem with instantly deleting enemies. That's a red herring. You are getting distracted by some mistletoe dangled in your face. Le Blanc doesn't do percent health damage or true damage or anything of the sort! She could buy item 3020 or item 3151 or item 3165 or item 3135 but she doesn't have any of the problem damage issues in her kit. The objection isn't that Le Blanc instantly deletes enemies, it's that all champions in the game are doing too much damage too quickly. So RIOT can't fix the problem by going to champions like Le Blanc who are accused of instantly deleting enemies and 'balance' them. That's not the starting point. RIOT will inevitably be forced to revert that sort of change in order to re-balance them with the game.

Thank you for your time if you were brave enough to read my wall of text.

TL;DR

The key to fixing damage creep in the game is to do a comprehensive examination of champions that get true damage, percent health damage, armor penetration, magic penetration, and the like in their kits. The game is forced to be balanced around champions that that ignore defensive itemization. If even one champion ignores defensive itemization, all champions are forced to become balanced around that simple fact.

XxDRAGONsAK47xX3 votes

Oh ya.

I have a BIG PROBLEM with bard.

I love getting stunned by his q and losing 3/4ths of my hp level 1 because of Q, auto, ignite, and electrocute.

TrueOmnipotence3 votes

I've got to agree with op. I've been feeling this for at least a few patches now. I now find myself forced to be playing anything that has as little Player input as possible while still having the highest DPS potential just to climb. It really does feel like the champions are turning into this vague mesh of classified damage dealers/pokes/divers/tanks/utility. Nothing really feels new or different even when I buy a brand new champ. Thing's are getting old way to fast, for me at least.

Ardond2 votes

I have honestly seen this happening since I started playing (around season 4 I believe) and it honestly has made me stop playing. I remember watching worlds with friends and being able to see team fights last around 20 seconds and count as every single ult went off, basically actually watch the flow of the fight through abilities and positions as opposed to how many health bars there currently where. In normal I think this translated to roughly 30 to 40 second team fights, but the point is that you could made decisions in the fight and not have to plan your whole rotation before you even engaged, you could throw your basic starting stuff, decide who was low and whether or not it was worth sticking around.

Basically you had to think about your actions in snap decisions during the fight as opposed to having the fastest fingers in the west.

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