@Riot; Lee's ultimate should not be a snare, mini stun, knockback and full stun in one

Dominick Destine·Mar 5, 2016·121 votes·5,219 views

Lee's ult is one of the most overpowered abilities in the game, with huge AD scaling and damage potential (4 linear stunned targets plus large additional damage) still even ignoring both of those things; Lee's ult has a snare, mini stun, knockback and full stun all rolled into one.

Given that Lee's ult kick is supposed to be a skillshot, it should function in the same way that Syndra's knockback functions. It knocks enemies back but does not stun them (unless combo'd with Q).

Point being; For a company that constantly states they hate "Hidden power", Lee sin has such an absurd level of hidden power that should be trimmed down by a massive amount. At bare minimum the initial snare/stun should be removed.

207 Comments

Kr1sysMar 5, 201628 votes

This thread is a lesson in how to get downvoted through shit posts and replies

YumaS2AstralMar 6, 20166 votes

{quoted}

This thread is a lesson in how to get downvoted through shit posts and replies

I don't understand why the main post itself was upvoted, though

ElphrihaimMar 6, 20168 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why the main post itself was upvoted, though

It's QQ about Lee Sin.

Remlap1223Mar 6, 20163 votes

If you need to pad your boards account with free upvotes, complaining about Lee Sin is always your safest bet.

Kr1sysMar 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why the main post itself was upvoted, though

Lee Sin QQ of course. If you take all of his posts in the thread and the minus votes are probably in the high 200's lol. Plus you can upvote outside of the thread, where most of the shitposting is being done.

Athenes LuluMar 7, 20162 votes

More like how to farm for free upvotes: make a thread about Lee Sin QQ.

Despite that OP is known to be someone who is just trying too hard to look smart.

50ShadesOfGenderMar 5, 201622 votes

[deleted]

Dominick DestineMar 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Every knockup/knockback in the game is also functionally a stun. This is why when alistar headbutts someone into the wall, they are effectively stunned for the amount of time it would have taken to complete the headbutt.

That's somewhat correct.

However they are not the same, they are similar. Strike one.

Lee's ult is a targeted ability, not a skillshot.

Maybe you should read the original post again , this time actually think as you read each segment.

Lee's ult is a skillshot ability, this is by definition. Strike two.

One of the most overpowered abilities in the game? Give me a break.

That's not a counter argument. Strike three.

Thanks for playing.

50ShadesOfGenderMar 5, 201610 votes

[deleted]

Dominick DestineMar 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What? Every knockup/knockback will stun the person being affected for the entire duration of the affect

That is correct, hence why I specifically stated that Lee's ult is a snare, mini stun, knockback followed by a full stun.

What part of that were you unable to comprehend?

MilfHuntUnitM1TMar 6, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mBlP9GzF,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T23:35:32.880+0000)

That is correct, hence why I specifically stated that Lee's ult is a snare, mini stun, knockback followed by a full stun.

What part of that were you unable to comprehend?

you sound like such a douche and your thread is completely bronze. please remove yourself from the forums.

JariMar 6, 20165 votes

Ali's W Q combo is a stun, knockback, knockup, and gapcloser.

And that isn't even an ultamite. Talk about broken as shit.

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Ali's W Q combo is a stun, knockback, knockup, and gapcloser.

And that isn't even an ultamite. Talk about broken as shit.

Except that's two skills and that is the bulk of Alistar's power budget.

Lee's ult is only one small part of an incredibly over-loaded kit which includes some of the highest base stats and scalings in the game.

HighH1Mar 6, 20169 votes

guys guys don't even try. Dominick Destine will refuse to listen to anyone but himself. He is diamond therefor he is more correct then everyone else and what he says is the only thing that matters.

yay nibbersMar 6, 20165 votes

Dominick is still better than that one guy who insists Sona is doing terrible and needs buffs no matter how well she's actually doing, Pika-something or whatever. They use the World of Warcraft definition of an aura from an outdated WoW wiki site to try and convince people that Sona doesn't have Auras despite the fact that they are indeed auras (it straight up says so in her tooltips), just not quite as good as she used to have.

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mBlP9GzF,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2016-03-06T00:27:25.745+0000)

Dominick is still better than that one guy who insists Sona is doing terrible and needs buffs no matter how well she's actually doing,

But Sona-chan...

They use the World of Warcraft definition of an aura

Uhh what? World of Warcraft? step away from the keyboard before your hurt yourself... I've never played WoW but your argument is utter dog devourings;

Diablo 2 had the same aura system as what the guy you're talking about is talking about.
Everquest as well and Tryndamere (Mark Merrill? second CEO of Riot Games) was an avid Everquest player. The Bards and (eventually) Paladins had auras that work as described (Persistent AoE effects for a determinate amount of time).
Rage of Mages 2: Necromancer (A popular game about 20 years ago) also had the same system.
Ragnarok Online had the same system (Albeit implemented in an incredibly shitty way).
D&D had very similar aura system with Bards (And semi bards like Skalds/Blades) in addition to items with persistent AoE effects

In fact, I can't think of a single major game that ever defined "Aura" as a "single shot buff". Like, what? can you give some examples of major games that work in the function used as Sona's "Aura" system? I know you can't because even going in I know you are talking absolute nonsense.

yay nibbersMar 6, 20166 votes

How does listing other games and their auras prove anything? League of Legends isn't those games, it doesn't prove anything.

MhihnjMar 6, 20165 votes

He is dominick destine. Therefore he is more correct than you for no reason whatsoever

yay nibbersMar 6, 20164 votes

That's Dominick Destine. Don't need to be correct, just need to be louder than the people actually making sense. Or more verbose, as the case may be.

Tannhäuser GateMar 6, 20163 votes

Nice ad hominem

--DD

Handin Out NapsMar 6, 20166 votes

He isn't even diamond, he is stuck in Plat lmao.

WadeWilson1337Mar 6, 20164 votes

Hes a dick on basically every forum post ive ever seen.

yay nibbersMar 5, 201620 votes

Can these Lee Sin bitching threads just stop already? He's already at a 45% average winrate in plat+, with a peak of just over 49% on players with 125+ games on him. How much more does he need to suffer before you whiners are happy?

Dominick DestineMar 5, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mBlP9GzF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-03-05T23:21:24.644+0000)

He's already at a 45% average winrate

Win-rate-in-isolation argument, epic fail.

Noted and downvoted.

yay nibbersMar 5, 201613 votes

Don't argue, just ignore facts, say "epic fail", downvote and bugger off. Can't have anyone threaten your free upvotes, no no.

Dominick DestineMar 5, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mBlP9GzF,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T23:38:48.906+0000)

Don't argue, just ignore facts, say "epic fail"

There is a user on these forums called "Arael the Cruel" , he encouraged me to try to educate pieces of human word through the knowledge I have, showing them that their arguments were pure re.... generation DrMundo .

That being said, I attempted his method several times which was directly opposed to mine; My belief has always been that if someone is too [Word] to understand basic concepts, the explanation will be a waste of time as well.

So I tried his method and 100% of the time, the people I explained the basic concept to, completely failed to understand the basic concept. So basically, I don't need to explain it to you because even if I did, you will not be able to understand.

However, let's indulge Mr. Arael the Cruel one last time; Arguing win rate in isolation is pure [Word]... that is not how conclusions can be formed by using a single piece of data but rather it is necessary to utilize at least two data points and preferably more to form a cluster of data.

In this case LeeSin has an incredibly high play rate. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that high play rate tends to deflate win rate, of course there are exceptions with broken characters like post rework Gangplank, release Xin and release Leb that had absurdly high win rates (+80%ish?). Conversely , low play rate will tend to inflate win rate (Ex: Urgot and Cass sometimes go up to 58% win rate simply because of their ultra-low play rate).

So because Lee has one of the highest play rates in the game, he will often , almost always, have a low win rate. He shares this characteristic with other ultra high play rate champions like Thresh.

Basically, your argument was complete garbage and it is known to be garbage. etc.

yay nibbersMar 6, 20165 votes

High playrate doesnt mean winrate will be lower, all it means is there will be a larger sample size. If you looked on champion.gg, you'd see almost all of his stats are below average, even his damage (8th worst among junglers).

Something important to note which you just completely ignored when I mentioned it the first time his winrate is still lower than 50%, EVEN AMONG PLAYERS WITH 125+ GAMES. THE MOST EXPERIENCED PEOPLE PLAYING HIM ARE LOSING MORE OFTEN THAN NOT. How can you tell me Lee Sin is overpowered when NOBODY is doing particularly well with him?

AnidanMar 6, 20167 votes

I didn't know we still needed to complain about Lee Sin. "But his play-rate is so high!" yeah, and? He's very versatile, you think a versatile generalist champion whose reputation is being constantly bumped up by the community for no good reason is going to be unpopular or something? Hell, let's say you have a point about win rate being deflated by pick-rate... so we'll look at mains in your play range, plat+ where we see that Lee Sin, when played over 50 games... still doesn't reach a 50% win-rate. In fact, if we look at the ever-popular champion.gg, his win-rate for 50-125 is 47.56%, and he reaches 49.14% at 125+ games.

That... doesn't sound overbearing at all. He can be annoying, and not everyone will contest that, but even looking at overarching statistics from, say, Master+ (where he should theoretically be at his best given his very high skill cap) his win-rate tumbles down even further. Whoops.

So why exactly do people continue to give a single shit other than the fact he's popular? I mean, even if you manage to bump him down and make him less popular, some other champion is going to take his place so you wouldn't accomplish anything other than replacing him with a different face to complain about.

yay nibbersMar 6, 20166 votes

Gotta get those free upvotes dude. Dont need to bother with silly things like facts or research or common sense when people will upvote you just for saying "buh, lee sin is op!"

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So why exactly do people continue to give a single shit other than the fact he's popular?

Great strawman argument.

That was never the argument presented but rather discussing one of his many overpowered abilities, specifically his ultimate. The character is overpowered, the argument is to trim some of that power. But sure, strawman it down to "People hate him because he's popular", what a piece of trash argument.

AnidanMar 6, 20168 votes

So, uh, do you wanna read that correctly, or...?

"So why exactly do people continue to give a single shit other than the fact he's popular" does not mean I'm saying you're arguing against him specifically because he's popular. But, y'know. You do you. What I'm saying is: why do people care about Lee at all, other than the fact he's popular? I'm taking popularity off the table entirely with that question. Why do people give a shit other than the fact he's popular? He's not particularly strong right now, and he's not dominating any level of play, so why do people give a shit other than the fact they see him frequently? He's got an overloaded kit? So do a lot of champions on the roster compared to a few years ago. Hell, even Vel'koz can be written up in such a way that he looks overloaded, and he's the Boards poster-child for balanced design, as well as Orianna who was largely the poster-child before Vel'koz came along. The boards definition of 'overloaded' has expanded to try to fit even Annie, one of the most mechanically simple champions in the entire game, into it. So overloaded has very little bearing until we get an actual point of reference for the term. Until then, it's a meaningless buzzword as far as Boards arguments and debates go.

Far as I can see, Lee may be a little on the weak side but I can't say much about that due to Riot's plan for balancing him (weaker for Solo-Queue because of his comparative strengths in competitive play). As far as overloaded goes, I'm of the stance that what we once considered overloaded no longer is. If you consider many of the new kits that have come into the game, and then look at Lee's kit, I don't even think he's overloaded anymore. He seems par for the course. He's a League champion, and League champions have a lot of tools in their bag.

I'm honestly of the opinion that, while frustrating to play against primarily due to his frequency of play, he's otherwise fine right now. Changing him right now for no reason serves to appeal only to people who don't like him anyway, because everyone else can see he doesn't need things removed for the sake of removing them at the moment. What I'm saying is: we have other champions to complain about right now. Lee's issue isn't even much of an issue right now other than play-rate and you can't really do anything about that other than make him completely unusable, which is just as bad as him being a completely dominant force in every single game.

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"So why exactly do people continue to give a single shit other than the fact he's popular" does not mean I'm saying you're arguing against him specifically because he's popular.

That's actually exactly what that means. Your strawman argument was noted and dismissed, rightly so.

Epic fail.

AnidanMar 6, 20168 votes

Oh yeah, I forgot. You're the guy who takes one sentence from a whole argument and dismisses that and then the whole argument because fuck you.

"I started something, but I don't wanna finish it, so I'm gonna say you committed to some fallacy in debate and ignore you now kbai." You're an idiot.

I'm seriously just gonna leave this whole thing on that statement: You're an idiot. Got it? I hope so, because it doesn't take effort to understand that one. Come up with some sort of logical fallacy for that one.

yay nibbersMar 6, 20165 votes

"M-muh strawman" he says as he himself does just that with your post. All this guy does is point out what he perceives to be logical fallacies rather than actually addressing what's said, which itself is another fallacy. Where do these people even come from?

At least his attempt at free upvotes by posting a Lee Sin bitching thread was completely negated by him being an absolute idiot in the following discussion.

AnidanMar 6, 20164 votes

You! I like you. I read some of your posts on this thread, and I agree with them. But yeah, some people just like to walk with airs to feel good, so at this point I just won't argue with him about this particular topic. Maybe a different topic wherein the point of discussion isn't Lee Sin, or some other thing he so vehemently hates, but not this one. It's sort of like arguing with a Trump supporter who only ever points out that he's done well for himself in the field of business, so he can try to get the country out of debt - there's more to the discussion than just that, and if you aren't going to address those other topics, then the value of your input is very minor (not to say that all Trump supporters are like that, I just happen to know a couple like that and they grate on my nerves a bit despite being otherwise good people so I wanted to sorta rant and get it off my chest).

AstôlfoMar 6, 201611 votes

Why do you continually try to act like such an overbearing arrogant idiot who pretends to be some know-it-all at the game?

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why do you continually try to act

I don't "try" to act like anything.

such an overbearing arrogant idiot

Well that's lovely.

Odyssey85Mar 6, 20163 votes

Saying you don't try, kind of insinuates you just are an overbearing arrogant idiot, but hey you are who you are

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Saying you don't try, kind of insinuates you just are an overbearing arrogant idiot, but hey you are who you are

Actually no it doesn't but your personal insult is noted and dismissed.

Odyssey85Mar 6, 20163 votes

Dominick, you're only Destined for hatred from the majority of the community here. I personally don't hate you, as you're only a profile on a screen, but the rest have different feelings about you. Your form of approach is really robotic and devoid of emotion, and a vast majority will not listen to you because of it. You gotta fix your approach if you want some recognition

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Your form of approach is really robotic and devoid of emotion

Yes, it's called objectivity.

Emotions have no place in any logical discussion, ever.

AstôlfoMar 6, 20164 votes

Being objective is pointless if your base argument is trash, but hey. At least you're still """objective""".

Dominick DestineMar 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Being objective is pointless if your base argument is trash

Begging the question fallacy.

But good try. Maybe next time present an actual argument rather than presuppositional piece of nonsense.

AstôlfoMar 6, 20166 votes

Oh hey, I can do that too! doesn't read post quotes it google searches list of logical fallacies copy pastes a random one "lol epic fail your argument is invalid"

yay nibbersMar 6, 20169 votes

Telling other people that they're stupid makes you look smarter, obviously. No need to address their points or anything, just say they're dumb and call it a day.

Cosmic WarperMar 6, 20169 votes

Isn't this the guy that tries to argue and ends up making himself looking like an ass because he thinks he's high elo and is therefore correct on everything? Is this the guy or am I thinking of someone else?