Tank items are too passive to be satisfying

Moody P··31 votes·12,610 views

I think this is a big issue that affects both tank balance and enjoyment; how incredibly passive their items are. Looking at things like Thornmail, Abyssal Mask, Frozen Heart, Sunfire-- these items just do not feel good to finish because there's such a little noticeable effect and none of them have a condition deeper than "be near the target." or "get hit." There's no interaction here; you simply get more for being in soaking distance of someone else, and there's no condition to it or a cooldown beyond that. And I think that's a big contributor to why the work around to tank items has been just adding so many direct counters to tank items that they feel even worse to buy right now.

It doesn't necessarily need to be out onto actives, but they certainly need to be more engaging. Compare this to other items that go to other classes. Steraks is limited on a cooldown and the main effect it has (its shield) is very satisfying while still having counterplay; you do not want it to pop from being poked and whittled down, because then you don't have it when you get into the thick of a fight. BC has to stack up, it feels good to hear that SFX pop and you know you've done something useful. Duskblade has the caveat of attacking from out of vision and it feels good to use. Ludens has to charge up, and it feels good to pop off. Even if these items can be big stat sticks, like Infinity Edge they're inherently more engaging and satisfying as offensive pickups because they require the player to be proactive.

And because defensive items are so passive they can't actually be strong effects. Thornmail does like 3 different things on its passives right now, slowing AS, doing return damage, and applying Grievous, so in return its effects have to be completely unsatisfying or else the item is too strong. Abyssal Mask had its range almost halved to compensate for being 100% uptime debuff aura. Etc.

Put these items to more engaging uses. It gives you more room to make these tank items stronger and more fun. Let your usefulness be more visible and clarified. Actives with cooldowns, conditional passives, stacking passives, any of those are great workarounds to making them better for the game. And then we can dial back anti-tank effects to compensate for windowed tank powerups. Everybody wins.

44 Comments

Soul Dealer12 votes

The biggest issue with tank items is that there are so few compared to damage items.

PopcornBunni7 votes

Tank items have two problems right now

1.) Bujilding tank doesn't contribute to a tank's ability to farm, compared to building damage on a bruiser or ranged opponent 2.) While base tank and damage items are costed appropriately for the relative tankiness/damage they offer, the value of the defenses on finished items is far, far outscaled by damage items, even without penetration

To explain the second point, what I mean is, given equal health and equal base stats, point for point, Damage outscales resistance at a rate of 1.5x. This is taken into account in the base AD and Armor items: item 1036 35g per point of AD, item 1029 20g per point of armor. That means per gold cost of these basic items, armor and AD scale at the same rate (actually favoring armor, which is why tank's winrates are usually highest in the mid-game). Finished items are a different story though. The most armor from an item is item 3110 which has a large bulk of its gold value put in its mana, which tanks have NO issues with between item 3025 item 3001 item 3800, and its CDR, which tanks also easily reach the cap on with Gauntlet, item 3083 item 3065. Overall it costs 27g per armor. The most "raw AD" item would be item 3031, granting an effective 80+(25% TOTAL AD+(25%) ) = 137 effective AD on a level 1 Orianna for 3400g. take off 15% from FH's passive = 116.875 AD, at a rate of 29g per point of AD.

Again, point for point, armor is 66% as effective as AD, so AD needs to be costed at 1.5x the rate. The most epitomal AD and AR items have that rate at 1.07x. That is also not paying mind to the raw numbers of finished items. Tanks have a single late game item in item 3193, but other than that, everything is costed cheaply at the expense of having shitty stats. Tank items aren't just gold inefficient, far more than that they're slot inefficient.

In order for tank items to match their damage equivalents, tanks need late game options but also need early game clear, which run in contradiction with each other for tanks themselves.

So, a couple of things in that regard.

Tanks need something that can be built out of early damage/wave clear tools that aren't just a niche mage item item 3102 or bruiser pick item 3053. Tanks also need better late game items costed fairly to match the rate of pure damage items.

So, with that in mind

item 3751: Health 200 -> 150. Cost 900 -> 700 (combine cost 500 -> 300). Immolation passive: Now also deals the same damage as bonus on-hit damage, at the very least to minions item 1401 item 1413 (gets the same changes to immolation) item 3068 cost 2750 -> 3000, recipe item 3751 item 1028 item 1031 +650g -> item 3751 item 1011 item 1031 +500g; 60 AR -> 80 AR 425 Health -> 525 Health Immolation passive changes

item 3110 cost 2700 -> 3200; 100 AR -> 125 AR 400 Mana -> 300 Mana Active: Increases the passive attack speed slow to 25% for 7 seconds; 90s cooldown

item 3143 Coldsteel passive increased to 20% attack speed slow. Crit reduction passive now named, "Deflection;" Crit reduction 25% -> 30%

item 3001 aura now applies to minions and monsters as well; aura radius 325 -> 450 (closer to the range of the tanks' its meant to be for, like Nautilus E (600) Ornn W (500), and even Amumu Zac E (350, which is outside of the aura range currently) )

Make item 3102 a tank item again. It use to be the go-to choice for protection against raw AP burst, but is now so niche it's barely seen in 1% of games. At the very least transfer a huge bulk of its power from the AP to MR and Health

item 3108 item 1033 item 1026 + 800g (3000g) -> item 3108 item 1057 item 1028 +980g (3000g) 75 AP -> 40 AP 10% CDR -> 10% CDR (unchanged) 60 MR -> 80 MR 0 Health -> 200 Health

Aatrox Airlines2 votes

This is frontpage material for reddit ngl

Love Anastasia6 votes

If you dont like that kind of items, you just dont like to play tanks lol

Thats the point of play tanks, assist your team,that makes items like Abysal mask so powerful if you know when to build it

If you dont enjoy that playstile, dont play it, go for bruisers or build tanks more offensive, but that items are pretty ok

The thigh guy14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lan Fan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-23T16:27:45.449+0000)

If you dont like that kind of items, you just dont like to play tanks lol

Thats the point of play tanks, assist your team,that makes items like Abysal mask so powerful if you know when to build it

If you dont enjoy that playstile, dont play it, go for bruisers or build tanks more offensive, but that items are pretty ok

It would be a different story if tank items worked. But they don’t.

Ragnaveil4 votes

Im having to play damage dealers cuz tanks actually suck. Why go a tank when you can go a damage dealer and build tank.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lan Fan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-23T16:27:45.449+0000)

If you dont like that kind of items, you just dont like to play tanks lol

Thats the point of play tanks, assist your team,that makes items like Abysal mask so powerful if you know when to build it

If you dont enjoy that playstile, dont play it, go for bruisers or build tanks more offensive, but that items are pretty ok

if we dont WHO WILL

Death by Glamour6 votes

You have to remember though if tanks were to get a few true powerspike items like triforce infinity edge ect other classes would simply abuse them, just look at ez/insert tank mage and item 3025 .

Moody P16 votes

Doesn't necessarily mean they have to do damage. But just for example, being able to toggle Sunfire, or limiting Abyssal to an active, or making it activate on enemies you apply CC to.

IMO there's a line between "good enough for other classes to adopt" and "dogshit item only a tank would want" that Riot could be a little better about following.

Death by Glamour3 votes

Tbf you and i know that the kind of items you are talking about arent a toggable (is that even a word) sunfire.

Thing is, what do we what tanks to do? I think we can agree that being suedo s4 bruisers as they are progressively becoming is bad for the game and they should go back to being durable cc meatshields. The items should reflect that identity.

Moody P5 votes

tanks need to be more than CC too, I've been saying it for ages that CC damage durability is not enough for tanks to be healthy champions

tanks need utility beyond that or else they get easily replaced by utility mages and more CC heavy fighters

AirKingNeo1 votes

What kind of utility beyond CC?

Abibyama II2 votes

Debuffs is one of them

Death by Glamour1 votes

Oh come off it.

Tanks dont have durability as armour and mr pen items wipe out thousands of gold in stats

crippler381 votes

Yes give me Blademail.

Tahminatrix 6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-23T16:30:45.195+0000)

You have to remember though if tanks were to get a few true powerspike items like triforce infinity edge ect other classes would simply abuse them, just look at ez/insert tank mage and item 3025 .

Not if the power spike item gave % buffs to health armor and magic resist...

The only non tanks that would touch them are juggernauts and they wouldn't get nearly as much since even they need to dedicate 1 or 2 item slots to damage.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2019-07-23T17:08:11.931+0000)

Not if the power spike item gave % buffs to health armor and magic resist...

Only juggernauts would touch them and they wouldn't get nearly as much since even they need to dedicate 1 or 2 item slots to damage.

Then you're going to have non tank Junglers abusing Cinderhulk, or Cinderhulk might become meta on most laners regardless of tank or not, because it's going to so absurdly powerful.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-07-23T22:48:15.036+0000)

Then you're going to have non tank Junglers abusing Cinderhulk, or Cinderhulk might become meta on most laners regardless of tank or not, because it's going to so absurdly powerful.

How is is kaisa gonna be able to abuse a 5% increase to health or armor or mr..

How is any (insert squishy champ) gonna abuse a % increase to any defensive stat, 5% of what...50 armor is 2.5? How is that broken.

And what are you on about cinderhulk for....

It gave +20% bonus health and only tanks touched it before riot nerfed it.

KlydeFrog1 votes

The thing is chief some people who have trouble clearing waves take smite and when they can actually buy the whole item so they don't get penalized it's better due to doing more damage to minions and monsters

Bârd5 votes

Honestly, I think League takes the wrong approach to tank items.

You shouldn't just have a bunch of items that make you durable. A few is fine, but if you have an entire arsenal like that it's just going to get boring, guaranteed.

You should have champions that are innately durable, and a bunch of items that synergize with being durable.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak4 votes

I don't have any examples written up, but I'd love to see more power put into tank items in the way of actives that provide some form of mitigation or effect. Maybe something like absorb x amount of damage within 3 seconds. If met, the next auto attack will stun. This way it can't be abused by a squishy since they likely wouldn't meet a damage threshold due to just dying.

Crashyy3 votes

I stopped buying items with passives mid 2018. Buying them is asking for a loss, it does nothing. I try to mix up a lot of actives with passives: Randiuns, Righteous Glory, Locket, Stone Plate, Knights vow, Redemption, etc.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

not that i disagree, but most carry items arent less passive either.

the core items of all different types of carries

item 3078 item 3124 item 3031 item 3147 item 3285 item 3089 item 3161

are all very passive items.

i think especially item 3068 item 3001 are fine the way their passives are.

DUDE BRO2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-07-23T19:43:58.721+0000)

not that i disagree, but most carry items arent less passive either.

the core items of all different types of carries

item 3078 item 3124 item 3031 item 3147 item 3285 item 3089 item 3161

are all very passive items.

i think especially item 3068 item 3001 are fine the way their passives are.

item 3078 item 3147 item 3285 item 3161

Have you play differently to optimize the items. Spread out attacks for Trinity, kill wards or hide out of vision for Dusk, charge for stacks on Ludens, etc.

NemeBro2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-07-23T19:43:58.721+0000)

not that i disagree, but most carry items arent less passive either.

the core items of all different types of carries

item 3078 item 3124 item 3031 item 3147 item 3285 item 3089 item 3161

are all very passive items.

i think especially item 3068 item 3001 are fine the way their passives are.

Those items have passives.

But they aren't "passive".

Triforce requires you to weave autos between abilities to make good use of, guinsoo's stacks and then you attack super fast and are in your power hour, duskblade is a big chunk of damage on the first auto from reveal, luden's is a big splash of damage when your ability hits, and spear of shojin makes you attack fast and have low cooldowns for the duration. All have clearly tangible effects that are noticeable. Even Infinity Edge noticeably both gives you crit and makes your crits big boy huge.

Those tank items just passively damage or debuff the enemy when you're in range/being attacked. They're barely noticeable, if at all.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Those items have passives.

But they aren't "passive".

Triforce requires you to weave autos between abilities to make good use of, guinsoo's stacks and then you attack super fast and are in your power hour, duskblade is a big chunk of damage on the first auto from reveal, luden's is a big splash of damage when your ability hits, and spear of shojin makes you attack fast and have low cooldowns for the duration. All have clearly tangible effects that are noticeable. Even Infinity Edge noticeably both gives you crit and makes your crits big boy huge.

Those tank items just passively damage or debuff the enemy when you're in range/being attacked. They're barely noticeable, if at all.

good point.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Didn't we try that already? item 3193 ...and it's not exactly gone to great now, is it?

I honestly perfer the more passive items, puts more focus on a champions kit rather than the itemisation(remember the Redemtion+locket era when supports only existed to use items?) My issue with tank items really isn't that they aren't interesting enough or 'engageing' enough, my issue is just that they have poor stats overall(both for gold and especially slot efficiency) and that defense stats get heavily outscaled by damage. The only thing that gives survivavbillity is steraks+mobillity, allowing you to preasure threats so they can't just unload their damage while beeing hard to focus. But actually sitting there and takeing the damage? You won't live more than 3 sec in a lategame teamfight even at 6 tank items.

Aatrox Airlines2 votes

This. Tank items suck to buy. When i play aatrox and i buy a deaths dance, im like "neat, i would like to see them do damage to me now" but when im playing nautilus and i buy sunfire, im like "now im gonna do 15 damage per second if i stand next to someone... Nice......." Im thinking, if sunfore got an active (instead of or alongside the passive) which woukd be something like "next time you autoattack an enemy, explode, dealing x damage to nearby enemies, x (5 or 10, idk)s cd, x% more damage against ccd targets" so its actually satisfying to buy and use the item. Then tank items would have visible synergy, as in abyssal mask amping sunfire active damage or randuins active/dead mans crushing blow giving you the cc to amp sunfire damage if your own is down.

Investa2 votes

I am glad we live in a world where the same kind of people that complain when tanks dominate the meta, are also the ones that complain when tanks are too weak. Consistency of some sort, I guess.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Because tanks wont dominate the meta with how shit is right now. Especially now that % pen equates base stats. Long as that remains, there is no way, and I mean NO WAY, tanks will dominate the meta ever again unless shit got uber forced buff to make damage non-existent.

Moody P2 votes

there's literally no contradiction in the comparison you're drawing

Investa2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-07-23T22:14:04.507+0000)

there's literally no contradiction in the comparison you're drawing

I'm not suggesting there is, I just think it's interesting.

Farih Danh1 votes

{quoted}

I am glad we live in a world where the same kind of people that complain when tanks dominate the meta, are also the ones that complain when tanks are too weak. Consistency of some sort, I guess. Exactly.... Nowadays tanks deal so much damage, if riot buffed they will unkillable like wtf?? Ppl who compalins about tank buffs are cucks

Investa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Farih Fynrux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8AkMcGJ,comment-id=000b0002,timestamp=2019-07-24T00:47:12.394+0000)

Exactly.... Nowadays tanks deal so much damage, if riot buffed they will unkillable like wtf?? Ppl who compalins about tank buffs are cucks

Eh, I don't think tanks are in a great place, but just knowing the damage they do to the meta when they are is why I think it's funny people ask for buffs. Unless they are tank mains, of course. Optimally, things would be in perfect balance, but that's a hard call to make.

FNC LongNGirthy2 votes

I agree I main top and I feel not only are the items underwhelming, but their needs to be another rune that helps tank trade besides grasp. If I pick ornn in solo que im basically asking for a kennen, Jayce, Or neeko to ruin my game with a counter pick. Tanks need items so they can fight too. Not be OP, but juss help us trade more.

Velasan2 votes

Well, I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer those types of effects. Ones where I don't need to keep track of a bunch of background stuff. Tank items like you say are just be near the target. Exactly the thing the tank is supposed to be doing.

For that matter I also like items with auras. Sucked when a couple seasons ago they decided people didn't appreciate auras and started removing them from items like item 3105 (if I recall correctly it used to have a magic resist aura).

One of my favorite things to do in older seasons as support was just build everything that had an aura on it.

Arcflare2 votes

I think with shield busting mechanics now in the game, this would be a good opportunity for riot to introduce a tank item that has an active where it places down an AoE field where any allies inside the field gains dmg resistance and the user/allies gain a shield. This causes 1 of 2 things to happen. In the case of a full turret dive, the enemy is forced to commit and there is some counter play against a team thats ahead enough to have confidence in a dive in which case they will be punished for. Another thing that could happen is if a team fight breaks out and the enemy sees the field active, that might cause them to try to disengage and give opportunity for picks. But also has a counter with someone like blitz who can erase all shields in an area around him.

Obviously theres going to be far more complex scenarios that could play out and theres probably a lot that could go wrong with an item like that too. But in general theres just so many things Riot can come up with for tank items. This was just an idea i came up within a few minutes when i saw the post. The lack of creative ideas that comes out of Riot is actually appalling with such a large team. After a decade of working on this game, youd think they would have figured out a lot more than they have.

FSRER2 votes

When most attack speed champions can reach 2.0 and even 2.5 attack speed so easily and even surpass it with lethal tempo, armor yes will not do anything. I have 2 suggestions on this issue

  1. Reduce the amounts of mixed damage most attack speed champions have, including true damage and reduce how easily a champion can reach high amounts of attack speed Or
  2. Increase armor on all items and most importantly revert Thornmail and Guardian angel

I would personaly prefer the first one because increasing all armor would throw off balance way too much to be a viable solution and it would only cause more trouble while the first one would not only be also be a indirect buff to armor but also would make botlane and toplane more healthy because in either lanes, you are better of playing something squishy and not a tank mostly because of the itemization.

Oh also while we are at it, something should also be done with Magic resist because that has been a problem for way too long and also a problem that everyone has been ignoring, including Riot, for way too long

Lovelle2 votes

The armor options in general are pretty underwhelming.

Really wish they would bring back an armor/attack speed on-hit item for champions like Trundle, Shyv, Udyr to help deal with the crazy AD burst in the game, because armor without damage attached to it hardly has any worth. At least MR items feel somewhat rewarding with items like Wit's End, Spirit Visage, Mercurial Scimitar and Maw of Malmortius. Armor items don't have anything like that beyond Guardian Angel, which is really only good on ADCs and assassins (and can only be built on SR).

If Riot intends to let damage outscale defense as heavily as it does, then they need to start introducing armor items with damage on them. Mages get to have armor and ability power, so why can't bruisers have decent offensive armor options?

Galiö1 votes

Hmn active item... I got it!

An item that has a passive three hit effect/debuff, after hitting an enemy with 2 crowd control spells within X seconds you can dash to that opponent , slowing them and nearby enemies. Debuff lasts for 7 seconds and refreshes every time you land hard CC on the enemy.

Cooldown X seconds

Item name; X gun give it to ya (with mobility creep)

DUDE BRO1 votes

Some thoughts on creating more gameplay on these items or just balancing their purchase cases:

  • Frozen Heart - Passive: Nearby enemies attack speed is reduced by 15% (unchanced) Active - 60s cooldown: Creates a shockwave that lowers all nearby enemy attack speed by 25% for 3 seconds. Passive is disabled while on cooldown. >> This creates some choice on expending the passive to a stronger version at key moments, then having it disabled for the rest of the fight.

  • Firecape - Passive: Burns nearby enemies for 75% (of original damage). Burn damage is increased to 150% (of original damage) over 5 seconds to enemies that stay within the burn. >> This gives more incentive to stick to specific targets so the burn increases on them over time, since it'll just keep the base damage if you keep running around to diff targets.

  • Thornmail - Also affects single targeted spells. Because if an ashe basic attack can give her grievous wounds, why can't a vlad Q?

  • Abyssal Mask - Enemies magic resist is now Reduced by 15% instead of increasing damage taken. It also displays a buff on them. This makes it more useful against MR stacking rather than just an item to mindlessly grab in Mages vs Mages.

Cloudinator371 votes

are you trying to say that over balance isn't fun?

GigglesO1 votes

Riot had a discussion once about spam casting vlad Q and how not everything needs to have meaningful decision making.

Tank items are meant to give passive bulk. Nothing needs to be active about it.

Shablagoo1 votes

This would be terrible, if we gave them more engaging items they would either make you more tanky or give you more cc. We dont want anymore cc locking and items that make you more tanky will be abused by brusiers. I remember when item 3193 was introduced and cho could oneshot people with his ult. The truth of the matter is tanks are just getting kicked down my brusiers they are just better, just as durable with insane burst and dmg. If you want more tanks nerf bruisers.

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