Man, it is so cool to automatically lose in champ select.

Onotori·Mar 16, 2018·2 votes·307 views

Have you ever wondered why some champs are literally never played in higher ELO (and some don't even exist in low ELO) or ever see time in LC$? Balance does not exist in this game in any way, and almost every game, and almost every lane, is determined the moment you lock in your champ, barring major skill differences.

There are obvious problem champs that are ignored or buffed because they're profitable when meta (and let's not pretend otherwise), while champs that are already struggling are nerfed into the ground.

I just can't have fun when I know that I automatically lose a game as I load in, or know that I automatically win (assuming my team isn't idiotic). But we just keep making the issues worse while Rioters pretend they're working on solutions or outright ignore the issues / us.

I don't get it.

17 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20182 votes

It is impossible to balance a champ for all ELOs - the target seems to be high gold to diamond, with outliers that are too strong in diamond+ getting nerfed as needed.

Regardless of champ balance, in bronze/silver, player skill and champ familiarity are far more important than who gets the OP pick.

There are no "instant win" champs, just players who give up and let them win.

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It is impossible to balance a champ for all [skill levels]

So how do other games do it then, if it's impossible? League is by no means complex, so you'd think it would be easier, right?

Regardless of champ balance, in bronze/silver, player skill and champ familiarity are far more important than who gets the OP pick.

No, not really. In low ELO, it's all about who abuses what's broken better. You can ignore team comps and just stack bullshit champs and automatically win.

There are no "instant win" champs, just players who give up and let them win.

I wish that was the case.

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20181 votes

So how do other games do it then, if it's impossible? League is by no means complex, so you'd think it would be easier, right?

They dont. Show me one MOBA, RTS or FPS that does not have items/builds/classes that vary significantly in winrate across divisions/ranks if you really found one.

DOTA2 absolutely does not, neither does Overwatch, and most other newer MOBA games are just a total joke with regards to balance.

No, not really. In low ELO, it's all about who abuses what's broken better. You can ignore team comps and just stack bullshit champs and automatically win.

It helps, but all it takes is one good player that has actual skill with their champ to stop that.

The issue is people perceive certain champs of being stronger or weaker than they actually are, and stuff snowballs way too hard in low ELO.

Aside from removing all snowballing (ie, delete gold/items or make them timer-only, remove all benefit of kills except downtime) snowballing will exist, and it will be worse in low ELO where people have bad damage control strategy.

UnboundHadesMar 16, 20181 votes

overwatch isnt a moba

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

overwatch isnt a moba

Yes, it definitely is. Or at least it wants to be.

Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

It split off from Starcraft/Warcraft about 18-20 years ago, DOTA was a bit of a latecomer relatively. Not every MOBA is a 3-lane top-down minion-fest.

UnboundHadesMar 16, 20182 votes

how is it a battle arena? it more closely relates to any kind of shooter with a new type of gimick with abilities

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They dont. Show me one MOBA, RTS or FPS that does not have items/builds/classes that vary significantly in winrate across divisions/ranks if you really found one.

Strategies change, but everything is viable in DOTA, which is why nearly the entire roster was played in their competitive season. Rainbow has infinite strategies to use. MMOs have infinitely more complex PvP but are much better balanced across the board (and they're balanced for PvE simultaneously). Overwatch is relatively balanced, and any hero can work in any ELO.

Hmm... I'm seeing a trend here. So, while playstyles and metas might change in every ELO, everything is viable in every ELO -- unlike League, which is based off of archaic designs that tries to be modern at the same time and ends up shooting itself in the foot as far as viability / versatility goes.

The issue is people perceive certain champs of being stronger or weaker than they actually are, and stuff snowballs way too hard in low ELO.

Aside from removing all snowballing (ie, delete gold/items or make them timer-only, remove all benefit of kills except downtime) snowballing will exist, and it will be worse in low ELO where people have bad damage control strategy.

Or we would delay power spikes to be more than one item or level 6, entirely rework autos to make them actually fair, and nerf unfair statchecks until they're reworked. But that would make LC$ boring and slow, and wouldn't be a good idea business-wise, so it won't happen.

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20181 votes

MMOs have infinitely more complex PvP but are much better balanced across the board (and they're balanced for PvE simultaneously).

I just stopped here.

MMO PvP is notoriously horrible and unbalanced, especially if it is mixed with PvE.

I guess we will need to see how Crowfall and Camelot Unchained do, but right now every MMO with heavy PvP is a joke.

WoW: Unbalanced, mostly dead.

GW2: Totally dead, previously just elementalist circlejerk

BDO: Entire game is slowly dying, PvP is P2W and as well-balanced as a drunk duck.

Every dedicated PvP open-world MMO just turns into a zerg-rush and dies when people realize nothing they do matters.

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

Well, good thing I'm not talking about open-world zergfests then.

PvP in WoW (as in, RBGs and arena) are very well balanced, to the point you can find almost any comp in very high ratings.

PvP in GW2 is very well balanced, and you can find any class in high rating, not just Elementalist.

PvP in FFXIV is well balanced, though it's not a focus of the game.

BDO is shit, so yeah. As are the rest of the Korean cash grabs.

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, good thing I'm not talking about open-world zergfests then.

PvP in WoW (as in, RBGs and arena) are very well balanced, to the point you can find almost any comp in very high ratings.

PvP in GW2 is very well balanced, and you can find any class in high rating, not just Elementalist.

PvP in FFXIV is well balanced, though it's not a focus of the game.

BDO is shit, so yeah. As are the rest of the Korean cash grabs.

WoW used to be, going downhill.

GW2 used to be.. sPvP is dead and WvW is basically just horses of necromancers and staff elementalist, last i looked (PoF) release.

Has PvP been revitalized?

Even at the best, the balance (pvp and pve) in GW2 was pretty atrocious, even the super-casual community recognizes and memed it to death (shatterstone op).

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

I mean, that's what happens when you bring over the guy who destroyed Diablo to work on WoW -- he just destroyed it too. I haven't seriously played WoW since Mists, but it was some of the best PvP in the genre. Sure some stupid shit happened, but you could beat it pretty easily at the same time. Nowadays, I don't know what it's like. I quit for all of WoD and only played like a cumulative month of Legion. Game just isn't the same.

As far as GW2, you should see high tier WvW -- it's so much more than Necros and Eles. And sPvP isn't dead, it's just not the most popular thing in the game. Of the people that do play it, there are some diehard fans.

PvE wise, GW2 is shit, yeah. But it's not a PvE-focused game, since "casuals" think that's too hard.

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, that's what happens when you bring over the guy who destroyed Diablo to work on WoW -- he just destroyed it too. I haven't seriously played WoW since Mists, but it was some of the best PvP in the genre. Sure some stupid shit happened, but you could beat it pretty easily at the same time. Nowadays, I don't know what it's like. I quit for all of WoD and only played like a cumulative month of Legion. Game just isn't the same.

As far as GW2, you should see high tier WvW -- it's so much more than Necros and Eles. And sPvP isn't dead, it's just not the most popular thing in the game. Of the people that do play it, there are some diehard fans.

PvE wise, GW2 is shit, yeah. But it's not a PvE-focused game, since "casuals" think that's too hard.

RIP WoW.

As far as focus, GW2 is extremely PvE focused - as of the last time anet released stats it was something like 90% PvE, 1-2% sPvP and the rest WvW.

What the hell is "high tier WvW" though? It is just everyone thrown together in a screaming mob, unless you mean the little roaming mesmer or daredevil death squads that rarely achieve anything important besides frustrating noobs.

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

Yeah, I miss WoW. I spent like 12 years on that game, and then Activision just up and kills it to try and make more money off of mentally-challenged monkeys that really shouldn't be playing the game anyway.

When I say PvE, I mean real PvE, like raiding, end-game dungeons, etc. GW2's version of "PvE" is farming boring events, doing Fractals, world completion, their hollow "raids" and RPing / crafting.

And yeah, tier 1 servers are different. You still have the zerg squads, but there's a lot more going on, and a lot of strategy.

MaxymMar 16, 20181 votes

yeah i completely agree with OP. people pick the most dumb stuff ever just to prove the world a point which inevitably fails. like teemo top, lucian top, quinn top, all slaughtered and useless after 10 minutes game, leaving team with 0 tanks bruiser or initiator, then trolling and flaming.

list goes on.

Chigara AshadaMar 16, 20181 votes

This is a game with 130+ champs in it and over 100+ items to build on champions with runes and more to make each person's build on a champion unique if they choose to deviate from the meta. It's a difficult game to balance due to all of these features, and it's damned to be unbalanced to some extent. If you really aren't having fun with the game then the game isn't doing it's job. Quit playing, and find something else you enjoy.

OnotoriMar 16, 20181 votes

Look at WoW. Over a dozen classes (infinitely more complex than League champs), 2-4 versions of each class, countless talent combinations... it was still balanced.

So what's Riot's excuse?

Chigara AshadaMar 17, 20181 votes

Everyone on the WoW threads would say otherwise, and if you'd argue that they are wrong. Then what does it say about these forums and their opinions? We are one in the same, and regardless of games it's always going to be unbalanced.