Shower thoughts on making autos less cancerous but still reliable.

Onotori··60 votes·15,088 views

Weird idea here, so bear with me.

Right now, champs that auto attack are kind of... cancerous, right? ADCs are assassins, assassins chunk half your health in one auto thanks to Duskblade, and champs like Yi and Jax and the like are just not fun to play against. They all have the same issue, in that they're based around auto attacks, which, outside of Graves and Kalista, have no counterplay. They always do the same damage, they attack so fast that armor means nothing, they sustain like gods, and they're more or less statchecks.

So, what if we made a change to give them meaningful counterplay without destroying the reliability of autos?

**In short: Let's give long range autos different zones of effectiveness, and let's give melee autos positional requirements. ** https://i.imgur.com/l7o0n77.jpg

In this picture you can see Ashe's full auto range divided into smaller circles.

  • The inner circle does 50% damage. Why? Well, think about it: If someone with a fucking sword or something is charging you from like 5 feet away, you're not goinna have a lot of time to aim, or a lot of room to move around in. So you would be less effective, yeah?

  • The outer circle represents the dropping velocity of the shot -- even bullets have drop off. So it does slightly less damage.

  • Between the inner and outer circle, you have the "sweet spot" where you get full damage from your autos.

So, what does that accomplish?

  • It makes ADCs play slightly closer to the fight, which means they're more in danger during teamfighting.

  • It increases the skill disparity between a good ADC and a mediocre one.

  • It gives ADCs a weak point that can be exploited (their zone that does less damage)

  • It makes positioning more important.

As for crit, what if crit chance increased the size of the "sweet spot" while crit damage increased the damage of that zone? That way, even crit has counterplay.

Then, for melee autos, here's another picture.

https://i.imgur.com/8Z6EwKd.png

So, if you ever played FFXIV, you'll probably recognize this shape. It shows where the front, side and back of the unit are. What if we made melee autos rely on your position as well?

  • The red area shows the front of the character. An auto there would do 75% damage -- in real life, attacks from the front are blockable, right? You see it coming, and you can dodge or block, etc.

  • The yellow area shows the side of the character. Autos here would do 90% damage. It's harder to block attacks from your side, right? But you can still see them coming and get out of the way.

  • The back, with no line (I drew an arrow so you can see what I'm talking about), is your weak point. You can't see behind you, and someone could wind up for a big hit. So autos here would do 100% damage, with lethality increasing that by X% for so much Lethality (maybe 2 lethality per extra damage %).

So, this gives even melee autos some counterplay, and would make top lane fights really interesting.

Now, I doubt Riot would do any of that, since it would increase the skill floor, and you lose money for having a higher skill floor -- but it'd make the game more fun, since everyone would be trying to out position one another and auto-based champs would really have to think about how to go in, rather than just run up and statcheck you to death.

I can dream though, right?

TL;DR: Look at the pictures. They show auto damage zones. First picture is for ranged autos, second is for melee autos.

111 Comments

Critmaster Garen24 votes

people have brought up the idea of having ranged auto attack damage drop off in melee range before.

imo its one of the better approaches to balancing out marksmen against melee carries. having 3 areas would probably be "too complicated" for riot, considering theyre throwing around with true damage conversions just because they think true damage is easier to understand than % damage amps or armor pen.

but making them only deal 50% damage at very short range (lets say 200 and less) makes sense imo. no more risk of ranged carries facetanking people because they get shielded for 3 times their health bar. well, they could still facetank people, but at least they wouldnt be able to kill the guy on top of them.

Onotori4 votes

I thought about it being too complicated too... but what if we had three colors for physical damage? In both melee and ranged, you can make the "bad" area red damage, so you know it's being reduced. You can make the "okay" area yellow, so you know it's better but not quite your full damage. And you can make the sweet spot damage green, so you know you're doing the highest damage you can do. Could even throw in icons too. Like a shield blocking the red damage, and the crit icon for green damage.

Not only shields, but absurd lifesteal. If an ADC was draintanking, you could just close the distance, and their damage goes down by 50%, which means their healing is that much lower too.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

I thought about it being too complicated too... but what if we had three colors for physical damage? In both melee and ranged, you can make the "bad" area red damage, so you know it's being reduced. You can make the "okay" area yellow, so you know it's better but not quite your full damage. And you can make the sweet spot damage green, so you know you're doing the highest damage you can do. Could even throw in icons too. Like a shield blocking the red damage, and the crit icon for green damage.

Not only shields, but absurd lifesteal. If an ADC was draintanking, you could just close the distance, and their healing goes down by 50%, which means their healing is that much lower too.

like i said. the 50% damage in melee range would be a really good idea.

but the 75% at max range would actually trash marksmen, because 1. they want to encourage marksmen to kite and stay at max range, and 2. it would interfere with mechanics like attack move.

TheMinionLeader2 votes

I think this is a very valid point. Seems quite logical.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Then you auto force adcs with dashes to be better.

and it's a stupid idea, guns don't hurt less being close to them

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Then you auto force adcs with dashes to be better.

and it's a stupid idea, guns don't hurt less being close to them

adc without dashes usually have more cc to kite.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Twitch MissFortune slows ain't enough

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Twitch MissFortune slows ain't enough

have you been slowed by mf? yes they are.

and twitch has enough range.

MyBardyIsReady1 votes

see, but what about graves, urgot, thresh and rakan(i know this might be aiming for adc's, but considering these champs were affected by them because they're ranged)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

see, but what about graves, urgot, thresh and rakan(i know this might be aiming for adc's, but considering these champs were affected by them because they're ranged)

there can be an exception for them imo.

AirKingNeo11 votes

Right now, champs that auto attack are kind of... cancerous, right? ADCs are assassins, assassins chunk half your health in one auto thanks to Duskblade, and champs like Yi and Jax and the like are just not fun to play against. They all have the same issue, in that they're based around auto attacks, which, outside of Graves and Kalista, have no counterplay. They always do the same damage, they attack so fast that armor means nothing, they sustain like gods, and they're more or less statchecks.

Everything in this paragraph is factually wrong. Auto attacks aren't cancerous, ADCs aren't assassins (but hey I like the circlejerk too! /s), Duskblade has nothing to do with consistent autos nor do adcs build it, Yi and Jax are weak statistically (Source, League of Graphs). Autos being the same damage, meaning consistent, is what makes autos a good design. Armor and attack speed have no correlation. Auto attack champions don't sustain like gods because no one buys sustain anymore. ADCs don't buy lifesteal until 4th item, so how could they 'sustain like gods'. Bruisers can't buy sustain because of Bramble fucking Vest.

EDIT: Everyone downvoting me either has a bias against me or is anti-fact. This isn't a debate. These are facts you can research easily.

Saianna11 votes

ADCs aren't assassins

ranged AA damage was supposed to be sustained damage. But thanks to crit chance and items (such as duskblade, statikk) it's nature changed to burst. If an ADC can kill you within a second (or 2-3 AAs) without giving you a chance to fight back or run away or just defend, then yeah, ADC becomes pretty much an assassin in disguise.

Yeah sure, ADC=/=assassin, but if they do what assassins do, but better, then you have a HUGE fucking problem with the balance.

There were even jokes that ADCs deal sustained burst damage.


Duskblade has nothing to do with consistent autos nor do adcs build it

and

ADCs don't buy lifesteal until 4th item, so how could they 'sustain like gods'

It's your opinion on how ADCs should be played. Not that they definitely play your way.

Autos being the same damage, meaning consistent, is what makes autos a good design

crit chance, stattiks, firecannon, dusk, some abilities all bump the "consistent damage" you speak of, making it resemble burst if anything.


(but hey I like the circlejerk too! /s)

It's definitely circlejerking cause they say something i disagree with!


Most of AD-enthusiasts in LOL has long forgotten what 'balanced' means. You guys got sooo used up to the powercreep, that it's kinda disgusting. I'm not blaming you, but Riot, if anything. They spoiled the living shit out of you across last 4 seasons. How can you even remember times when AD stat was as bloated as it is now. That's literally 4 years ago, if not longer.

AirKingNeo4 votes

ranged AA damage was supposed to be sustained damage. But thanks to crit chance and items

Should be changed to, "but thanks to boards circlejerking we call it burst

It's your opinion on how ADCs should be played. Not that they definitely play your way.

Statistics aren't my opinion. You can research what meta adcs build very fucking easily that there isn't an excuse to not knowing.

crit chance, stattiks, firecannon, dusk, some abilities all bump the "consistent damage" you speak of, making it resemble burst if anything.

Meta ADCs don't build Duskblade.

It's definitely circlejerking cause they say something i disagree with!

We get posts like the one above daily. D A I L Y

Most of AD-enthusiasts in LOL has long forgotten what 'balanced' means. You guys got sooo used up to the powercreep, that it's kinda disgusting. I'm not blaming you, but Riot, if anything. They spoiled the living shit out of you across last 4 seasons. How can you even remember times when AD stat was as bloated as it is now. That's literally 4 years ago, if not longer.

Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players.

FutureCreator3 votes

Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players.

You are not an oppressed minority.

AirKingNeo3 votes

So, when I see posts about every week talking about how shitty of a person ADC players are, I'm not being attacked? When this person right here literally tells me, "you have forgotten what balanced means," that's not attacking me?

These are all group attacks. Do you think I appreciate being told that I'm an idiot and that I'm rude to players? Do you think everyone else who plays ADC appreciates that?

Have you ever even consider the reason why the boards have no ADC mains and those mage mains instead run the circlejerking here despite accusing adc players of whining 'when they get nerfed'? Question the shitty status quo here.

Saianna2 votes

If you don't even know what sustain and burst is, then... What is even the point of us talking?

Second thing, you know why those "hurr durr ADC circlejerking hurr" threads are made daily?

Cause they are fucking broken. They arent balanced since ages. People see it. People make threads about this. And yea, they do have that 50% winrate and all, but that's because most of ADCs play like braindead morons and forcefully pull the winrate lower than it should be.

I don't wanna lie to you, but across all seasons since S3~~ ADCs got like 20-30% more AD and crit chance in items than before. They also have shitton more defensive options than before. This is what's called a powercreep.

Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players.

<removed by moderation>
AirKingNeo1 votes

If you don't even know what sustain and burst is, then... What is even the point of us talking?

I know what sustain and burst is. Mages have burst. No one is buying sustain.

Second thing, you know why those "hurr durr ADC circlejerking hurr" threads are made daily?

Because this forum is run by a bunch of mage players who love to circlejerk. They accuse ADC players of "whining when their class gets nerfed" yet there is no ADC players to be seen at all to even whine. Instead, the mages whine.

Maybe moderation should do something about threads that talk about how shitty of a person ADC players are.

Cause they are fucking broken. They arent balanced since ages. People see it. People make threads about this. And yea, they do have that 50% winrate and all, but that's because most of ADCs play like braindead morons and forcefully pull the winrate lower than it should be.

Wow, you really don't know how winrates work... The proper answer is both teams have one so they cancel out. Also if adcs are broken, why are they barely played outside bot lane?

I don't wanna lie to you, but across all seasons since S3~~ ADCs got like 20-30% more AD and crit chance in items than before. They also have shitton more defensive options than before. This is what's called a powercreep.

20-30% more AD? Pretty sure BT has lost AD and IE is still the same. LW has more AD because of it's upgrades, but that also includes a higher gold cost. BoRK lost attack speed, so don't even try that argument.

What can I say, you are perfect ADC stereotype. Doesn't know shit and talks shit.

#I am literally using facts. This isn't a debate. This is you denying the truth. <removed by moderation>

ModPeriscope1 votes

It's a bit hypocritical to say "don't stereotype me" then immediately insult and stereotype the other poster.

I've removed part of your comment for violating some of the Universal Rules , more specifically "The Golden Rule" - Always be respectful to players, community members, moderators, and Rioters. We can disagree with others, but please do so in a civil manner.

If you have any questions about this moderation, feel free to reach out to us in the Boards Discord or Discuss the Boards.

Please do not continue arguing, as it seems apparent that neither of you are willing to see the other's viewpoint.

AirKingNeo1 votes

ster·e·o·type noun a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing. (Source: Google)

Calling someone out for stereotyping people doesn't even fall under the definition of stereotyping. Don't baselessly accuse me of stereotyping someone.

I said he was part of a group. That is not stereotyping He said me being part of a group means I am X. That is stereotyping.

"Most of AD-enthusiasts in LOL has long forgotten what 'balanced' means." (His first comment, last paragraph) Did you forget to remove this line of his? If so, understandable; it happens. If not, then what the heck are you going on about stereotypes for, but leaving this up?

Also, you forget that this isn't a viewpoint argument. This is facts vs his lack of facts. I've given evidence and he hasn't. I have a solid argument and he doesn't. There can't be another viewpoint if what he said has no basis in reality; in evidence.

This is, of course, a large board issue. I don't have a clue how to solve it, but I sure did point it out. My guess is to change the culture of the boards is a solution, but now you have to ask, "How the heck do you do that?"

ModPeriscope1 votes

I've removed part of your comment for violating some of the Universal Rules , more specifically "The Golden Rule" - Always be respectful to players, community members, moderators, and Rioters. We can disagree with others, but please do so in a civil manner.

If you have any questions about this moderation, feel free to reach out to us in the Boards Discord or Discuss the Boards.

Please do not continue arguing, as it seems apparent that neither of you are willing to see the other's viewpoint.

marpatt118 votes

I don't like the idea of the melee changes.

Turn rates don't exist in league, so as soon as you see that garen flash outta the bush with his Q and his full crit build, you just turn around to face him and suddenly his auto that would've killed you, doesn't since its 75%.

You'd need to add turn rates to the game for anything like that to work, so without them, and since a lot of people I know who play dota hate them, it wouldn't really work.

Onotori2 votes

That is true, it'd be hard in a normal fight to get a hit at someone's back, but mobile champs could try outpositioning people to get that extra damage, and it would force assassins to flank in order to do meaningful damage, instead of just walking up and statchecking you like they do now with Duskblade and high damage autos.

Besides, I think it'd be more fun if the average TTK was a bit higher. Bursting people from 100-0 instantly is getting a bit old.

Dead flag blues7 votes

Posted a similar thread a while ago (exact same idea but less details). It would actually force marksmen to start orb-walking again instead of standing still and right-clicking everything on sight

Currently playing a (not really known) MMO (Skyforge for those who know about it) and ranged classes have to stay at 20 meters away from enemy to deal a maximum amount of damage, if they come closer, their damage keep decreasing until they reach 10 meters, where their damage are cut in half but won't go any further down. It works well, no complaints about it and force ranged classes to actually being ranged

KZ Engel7 votes

mobility creep has made this an impossibility. champions like ashe, jhin, and jinx would need massive compensation buffs. bad idea.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

[{quoted}](name=KZ Engel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRTqxGiw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-25T22:55:13.978+0000)

mobility creep has made this an impossibility. champions like ashe, jhin, and jinx would need massive compensation buffs. bad idea.

bullshit. at the very least in jhins case. he gets enough movement speed and has long enough auto attack and ability range to not get into melee gap closer ranges most of the time.

the requirement to stay at more than 200 range from her target isnt too much to ask of ashe and jinx either. jinx has 2 cc abilities and her rockets too, so there isnt really an excuse to get gap closed on every time either.

Kaìju3 votes

Try playing against anyone with a gap closer who wants you to get closer. Darius has a pull range of 535. You're telling me I should walk into his pull range to do more damage as someone like Twitch?

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Try playing against anyone with a gap closer who wants you to get closer. Darius has a pull range of 535. You're telling me I should walk into his pull range to do more damage as someone like Twitch?

i was the one who spoke against the reduced damage at maximum range. youre barking up the wrong tree.

however, 50% damage at less than 200 range is fair. in your example it would mean twitch is fine when he stays outside of pull range, but is 100% fucked against the darius in melee.

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRTqxGiw,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-05-25T22:57:12.747+0000)

bullshit. at the very least in jhins case. he gets enough movement speed and has long enough auto attack and ability range to not get into melee gap closer ranges most of the time.

the requirement to stay at more than 200 range from her target isnt too much to ask of ashe and jinx either. jinx has 2 cc abilities and her rockets too, so there isnt really an excuse to get gap closed on every time either.

Are you actually retarded or what? lol if one champion like Mao or Irelia get onto jhin he literally cannot do anything about it if his autos don't do shit. Worst idea ever

BullSocks2 votes

Are you factoring in supports? If an Irelia or a Maokai gets on too Jhin, its the fucking supports fault for not peeling him off. If your getting caught out as Jhin, Thats your fault.Retard.

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

{quoted}

Are you factoring in supports? If an Irelia or a Maokai gets on too Jhin, its the fucking supports fault for not peeling him off. If your getting caught out as Jhin, Thats your fault.Retard.

You act like it's always this simple when you read it on paper. I don't believe autos should go down in damage if you are close to the target lol this is just a retarded idea that should never be brought up again.

MuffledGarbage6 votes

so CC becomes a more important thing for a team to have...

support Tanks become relevant again(the non-Alistar ones) for botlanes

ADCs don't melt enemies unconditionally

Champs without mobility could also just be given a higher sweetspot range

it's a good idea when it's done creatively and used as another balancing lever for basic-attack champs

Disulfiram3 votes

It could be a reversed "sudden impact" effect: after using a dash/blink, your sweetspot range is reduced by X for Y seconds.

rtbf2256182417 votes

I feel like you're thinking in the right direction but overcomplicating the solution.

AirKingNeo3 votes

he's thinking in the wrong direction.

There's nothing wrong with how autos work.

rtbf2256182416 votes

And i don't really care about your absolutely worthless opinion when all you say is "No i'm right he's wrong."

AirKingNeo1 votes

Scroll up and find my comment, but his entire post is based on an unproven assumption.

rtbf2256182413 votes

His post is talking about an alternative to reliable basic attacks which the game currently has. You can't avoid basic attacks 99% of the time. What's your point? That's not some unproven assumption, it's a fact.

AirKingNeo1 votes

again, did you read my comment above?

rtbf2256182412 votes

Yes, and i replied to it too. I'm starting to think you don't speak English fluently.

rtbf2256182412 votes

Why would i care about what you write on someone else's thread? Besides, what's your point even? Adcs can easily do assassin damage in shorter amounts of time with the passive effects on multiple items and they do consistent damage without any drawbacks or reliability issues.

AirKingNeo1 votes

because you asked for my reasoning as to why I said, "he's thinking in the wrong direction. There's nothing wrong with how autos work."

Adcs can easily do assassin damage in shorter amounts of time with the passive effects on multiple items and they do consistent damage without any drawbacks or reliability issues.

No, they can't. That is factually incorrect. Drawbacks include: having to stop moving to auto attack, being squishy as fuck, damage being overtime instead of bursts to kill squishies.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Adcs are highly durable in almost any scenario, they have a freaking role dedicated to keeping them alive. Half of them have high mobility or utility abilities to additionally peel for themselves, Firecannon can be used to extend their poke range comined with Statikk and a crit proc...guess what happens...yeah, a large burst of damage.

And stopping to attack? The only characters to not stop to attack is Kayn's assassin form and Aurelion with his W. This isn't unique to anyone and Adcs always buy AS items to minimize standing still. Especially with AS steroids.

Rouwhorst5 votes

This overcomplicates the system quite a bit. You would need to keep two more ranges to keep track of where your basic attacks are less effective. A gun (or bow) on 2m distance or 10 m distance is just as effective, if anything there would be more time to dodge/block the attack as the distance increases. "less time to aim" does not make that much sense as this aiming(windup) time is static and there is as much time to 'aim' as when you would do a long ranged attack. The circles you drew are also naturally in place yet much less pronounced. Normally you don't want to attack in close range as the enemy is much more of a threat. Just at the edge you don't have any movement room left. But forcing it like this feels not right.

Damage based on which side you hit is also not a very good idea, turning in league happens practically instant. Slow champions will practically never hit the rear so always deal less damage. This pretty much screams mobility creep to me.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

Just seems weird to me that Velkoz 's tentacles would become LESS effective at close range.

Like what the fuck? Why is he better at molesting you from a mile away than if he was within your personal space?

Oh, and also, this idea would fucking kill Graves and Urgot into the fucking ground.

All things aside, it's a good idea nevertheless.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Graves would just have his sweetspot range closer...

Urgot would also just have his sweetspot range closer...

you aren't thinking about this creatively

Jesus is Savior3 votes

Positional autos for melee makes no sense because this isn't Dota 2 and turnspeed doesn't exist.

Burn Hazard3 votes

I wish I could slap you and everyone who agrees with you through the internet for this post, what a godawful idea. League ranged carries are already fundamentally too strong, and are a major drain on what kind of characters you can make or play. Get a better perspective and stop huffing Marskman farts you troglodytes.

Flashes2 votes

This would be a better idea for a passive on a champion than an actual implimentation. While this would add depth to the game, it would also drastically shift the meta to an unplayable state for all ADCs, especially with the new changes coming up to critical strikes. Might as well go Anivia bot lane, thanks to her consistent Es that will not be blocked by this.

Onotori2 votes

Riot does want more diversity bot lane, so hey.

And ADCs would likely need a small bump if their damage wasn't guaranteed to be meaningful.

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